thotful

It has been years since I've heard from a particular brother after I set my boundaries. He had been pushing for a relationship that excluded my wife with no effort on his part to resolve his conflict with my wife (which was coming from him, not from her). We had even met for counseling (me, wife, and bro) and he had aired out some grievances and my wife graciously apologized and we asked him to be honest with us in the future. He said it's water under the bridge - but it obviously wasn't. Because he continued to make efforts to exclude my wife and just try to have a relationship with me.

Anyways, he withdrew from me and I hadn't heard from him in a long time. He sent a quick message asking for contact, and I simply asked, "I'm confused - were you asking for a relationship that completely excludes my wife, like 100% of the time - you're not just asking for bro time? Can you help me understand where you're at?" -- paraphrased. He didn't respond.

Fast-forward almost two years after that. He texts and calls out of the blue.

Says a few things.

I love you and miss you and just wanted to say "hi"
I think about you every day, and it's been a really long time
I want a relationship

I thought these were all good, but I also viewed it as rug-sweeping because the main reason things weren't going well hadn't been addressed.

I stated that I could probably have a separate relationship for a while, but eventually I would grow tired of it.

He said he would eventually want to see my daughter. I pointed out that since my daughter is half her mother, what reason would I have to believe that he would treat my child respectfully? He can't even do that with my wife. My niece is mistreated simply because other family members (including him) have "issues" with her mother - I stated that due to this kind of thing happening before, I had serious concerns that the same treatment would occur with my child due to "beef" or "issues" with my wife that individuals are refusing to deal with.

My brother had originally insisted that I come up with a compromise. I had - I decided that e-mail would be OK, since by it's nature, most correspondence is one-to-one. I said that I could do that.

We could start small with e-mail. Focus on minor stuff like movies and games, and move further if things were going well.

He apparently didn't like the offer. He was trying to argue that his wife has separate friends and why can't I, thotful, have separate friends too?

In my opinion, people that speak poorly of my wife and refuse to resolve their issues with her, or say things are OK one moment, and then argue "I don't get along with her" in another, then that "friendship" doesn't last very long. All of my current friendships do not pose themselves as an enemy of my marriage, or are in direct conflict with it, or my wife for that matter. That's where I see the problem.

Do others have experience with this? My father's an alcoholic, I've been sober for almost 5 years now, etc - so, there's a lot of family enmeshment. Lots of judgment, etc. I've grown tired of it and have set some boundaries.

I don't understand how this brother could say kind things about wanting a relationship - but then to be so cold and insulting when saying things like how "before your relationship with her, things were always OK between us, but now..." or when I mentioned the cruel things that were said and he complained that it was 5 years ago -- I said, "my concern is today, not 5 years ago - is there something different you'd like to say?" and he stated that he doesn't know us and couldn't comment. It's like he was saying that he...what...reserved the right to judge all over again?

I don't know how to respond other than to just cope with the pain. I doubt he'll even accept the e-mail only offer and I won't hear from him again for another 2 years, or more. So, do I just move on and go back to focusing on fixing my own life? That trying to engage with him is crazy-making? It feels like what I'm asking for is sooo small - accept my wife and be respectful. But apparently...for him, that's asking for more than he can give.

LexieCat

I think you're a very fine man to show such loyalty to your wife.

It seems to me that your brother cannot/will not accept her, and I think for you to try to resume a relationship, however attenuated, with him is going to be--yes--crazy-making. He sounds like a very small person to behave this way. Kinda sad for him, but it's of his own making and you can't fix it.

firebolt

What specifically do you want from him with regards to your wife - acceptance of her and respect is pretty broad?

I can play devils advocate, some....

My brother is married to a very, very controlling woman. Time spent with her means hours - literally - of listening to her rant and complain about other people. The things they do wrong, what they need to do better, how everyone's actions are done to put her out. It's exhausting, and I will often excuse myself to another room during the rants.

She sent out a midnight text to my whole family complaining that I jab / poke fun at my brother (him and I do this to eachother, and I love it!), and that I did something nice for him for his birthday without her involvement, and "SHE'S HIS WIFE, and should be checked in with should I want to give him a gift or make him dinner!" Then, because I responded with "I will not be controlled in this manner, my relationship with him isn't yours to dictate," she called other members of the family saying that she didn't feel welcome in her own home for Christmas. I've just witnessed way too many dramatic flips outs over all things...minor to big. AND, she doesn't like my 16 year old nephew. Grr..

They are off and on in their marriage, getting a divorce one day, working on things the next. I can't keep up and don't want to...its too much chaos, HOWEVER:

I love my brother unconditionally, support him with his decisions, and am nice and cordial when she and I do end up in the same room together. I do not bad mouth her to him or the family (ma girlfriends are a different story )I won't be a part of the stress and drama with her, but I also will not change how I am with my brother just because she throws fits or tries to manipulate the family. I will not get a hold of her for family events. I call bro for arrangements - she's his wife, and he can fight that battle....I'm just tired of her long rants where she tries to speak for him. And I hate to echo your bro, but our family had ZERO drama before his wife came around. I'm not saying your wife is the same kind of crazy....AT ALL - just trying to compare no loving a siblings spouse.

So...If your wife and bro don't get a long, why force it? Why can't you have a relationship with him without your wife, or with your wife minimally involved? Can you just lay some boundaries that you won't tolerate him speaking poorly of your wife, or treating your child poorly? Does he have to love her for you to love him?

I don't think that him telling you he feels like things were OK is cold or insulting. It's just how he feels...and he's right, he doesn't know you guys anymore - not enough to be able to say he doesn't feel the same way. You might be reading into this too far if you are feeling like he just wants to judge you again.

Relationship reconstruction is difficult - it takes time and letting the past live back there. That all being said, if your brother doesn't offer value to your life - then maybe you are better off without him, but it does seem like he misses you.

thotful

Specifically, I've said that I won't participate in a relationship that excludes my wife.

Firebolt, did your sis-in-law seriously try to tell you that you needed her permission before giving your brother a gift? yeah, that hasn't happened with my wife - not even close.

My wife has always said that I can have a separate relationship if I wanted. She's has not been the puppet-master with me - I'm not given credit for changing my life based on my own volition.

The cold and insulting has more context around arguing that everything was fine before her, and everything isn't ok and it's all her fault.

Cold because I've laid out clearly what has hurt me in the past in terms of name-calling or insults to my character that occurred long before I met my wife. There's no recognition of that pain and an intent to change.

Insulting because there's a presumption that I have no mind of my own to make up. That in order for the scenario to make sense - things all fine before and things are really bad now - she has to be responsible for everything. That I have no contribution to the conflict. He's not acknowledging his frustrations with me.

There's so much left under the rug here. I feel like I'm being gaslighted to be manipulated into ignoring abuse I've dealt with before with the behavior of members of my family of origin.

I have a friend that makes an effort to be around and be respectful and cordial to his sister's husband. He is upset about his behavior and complains to me about it at times. So, I see first-hand how a sibling responds in a way that I wish I had, and I feel jealous. And this is a friend who I think has WAYYYY more leeway to lay out what's going on. He could actually say the abusive things the brother in law has done that he refuses to apologize for - for every complaint my brother made about my wife, she addressed. I think it's completely different. I'm really trying here and he seems to do nothing other than to insist that I do all this work and bending around like a pretzel for him. I'm just not happy in the relationship with him.

PS - for a while, things were fine and I was ok with the relationship. It was when he started complaining about how he really wanted a separate relationship and that he didn't get along with her, and trying to push me to come up with a compromise - really irritated me. Things were fine in our minds, but not for him I guess? I asked him what was wrong now and didn't get an answer. So, I have felt for a while that he keeps saying that I'm the problem, but in my mind, he is the one pushing for something different that I've made clear won't work for me. It's especially hard when every single other friend I have has said, "what's wrong with them - she's awesome" - I get completely befuddled at it. The only conclusion I can have is that my bro is holding a grudge that he can't let go of.

teatreeoil007

I'll put myself in the wife's place for a bit: My husband spends a TON of time with one of his brothers....travels long distance and stays with him...stays in frequent contact with him. I rarely interract with the brother. And that's okay. If any of his siblings didn't like and accept me I'd still be okay with him spending time with them. I trust that they won't do anything to jeopardize my relationship with my husband. I guess you could say my relationship with my husband is SEPARATE from my relationship with his siblings, in a way. I don't feel threatened by it or anything. They have my blessing to spend all the time in the world together. I don't care if they respect me. I really don't. As far as I know they don't DISrespect me, but if they did, oh well. I've got my own life to worry about.

hearthealth

Hi thotful, It's great you don't allow your relatives to bad mouth your wife and your daughter. It's wonderful that you stand up for your wife in wanting a relationship with your family.

Exclusion will not bring a family closer. It gives families more ammunition to dislike someone. They can't dislike you, your family. Maybe some effort is better than no effort.

Does your wife want the same type of relationship with your family as you want her to have with them? Do you make the effort to help her bridge the gap? By actually praising her to your family. To discuss her wonderful qualities. To bring her to family events. To include her and educate her on family traditions and hobbies. Do you and your wife put in the effort or is it just them?

If you do try all of this and your family is toxic then no contact is the best way to go.

FireSprite

But thotful, this ISN'T just a friend you're talking about here - it's your brother.

I think the ball has been in your court for quite some time on this one & you are holding out for complete control - waiting for your brother to accept everything on YOUR terms or not at all.

Your options have remained the same for YEARS - either accept a relationship with your brother that does not include your wife (with boundaries, obviously), or do not have a relationship with your brother at all. Your wife even supports this. He obviously has NO interest in changing his opinion of your wife anytime soon & he never WILL if there is no real communication, only both sides digging in to their respective opinions & holding firm.

It's insanity, right? Continuing to do treat the situation exactly the same & expect new results? Do you really think that's helping change his/their opinion of your wife?

But if you try to start over & try hard to just let it unfold instead of forcing change, maybe he'll actually recognize that he's wrong in some way because he sees & hears it in your walk & talk. Or, don't.... but pull the cord & go No Contact unless you want to keep ripping up this band aid over & over & over as your daughter ages & hits milestone after milestone.

I have ZERO relationship with my in-laws, by choice. RAH talks to 2 of his 3 brothers, they do not speak to each other & only 1 of his brothers speaks to his parents. I don't care anything about how he manages these relationships because they don't threaten ME in any way, I only ask that they maintain my boundaries of NC because *I* have no interest in even the most basic of interactions with them. RAH supports me because he knows they are toxic, but he also recognizes a part of him that NEEDS that connection to his youth & his childhood on some level. Sometimes he has grown tired of the dynamics & drama & taken breaks from contact over the years & one day he may just decide that he's done, it's enough. But that'll be his decision.

firebolt

Yeah...bros wife is 50 shades of cray...and toxic to ME ( and between God and this forum, part of my hackles going up with her is that I see glimpses of how sick I was in her - although I never tried to control or get in the way of a boyfriends family...)

THat being said - I love my brother and understand hes trying to make a marriage work. I won't be cold, uncaring or give her the silent treatment - no matter how she treats me....but I will minimize my time and communication with her as much as is possible while supporting and wanting to spend time with him. Basically, I can suck it up for the good of the fam, and I hope your bro can do the same. To me, in both our situations, (and probably with most conflict) it sounds like both sides could use loosening their grip on each end of the rope? Only you know whats best for your life - good luck!!

thotful

Firebolt, as I've said to my friend, I feel for you. And I wish I had that with a sibling. I hope your bro is grateful for your effort to be in his life despite the difficulty. I've said the same to my friend. I can see scenarios where I would tolerate separation and work on separate relationships if my wife was contributing to the problem - but she isn't. She's been so gracious in addressing his complaints - and has been flowing full tears of pain saying, "why do they hate me" -- she is now in a place where she doesn't need them in her life anymore. So, a lack of acknowledgement of the hurt that has occurred, I have a problem with;

It sounds like some posters see possibilities where a relationship that completely separates my wife and she's excluded is acceptable and others that see it as unacceptable. So what's the difference? What makes it OK vs not? As in, if I give this possibility some breathing room, how do I make the decision? What components do I consider? Is it just my own boundaries that I set?

Firesprite, I'm confused. What am I permitted to ask for that would be considered "non-controlling"? I feel like I ask for so little, and to be told I can't even ask for that - seems like I need to bend over backwards into breaking for a relationship that brings me so little joy and really a lot of pain. and my brother doesn't have to offer anything - no apologies, no amends, no effort to get along, no concern for my feelings about how he's treated me, etc. I was comfortable letting go about how he argued that "you have no friends" despite how abusive that kind of attitude is - I've let him slide with so much. That includes a whole bunch of lack of responses when I would e-mail, participate in his fb, but he wouldn't participate in mine, etc. He says he wants a separate relationship, but he's not acting that way - he doesn't utilize tools like e-mail, fb, and phone calls that could clearly limit his contact with my wife.

We ended our conversation with the agreement that we would start small with e-mail and he would start. That was a month ago. I'm not surprised that he would say one thing and do another.
It's likely that I will send him an e-mail and I'm debating about what I will say - as Firesprite has said, I don't want to repeat things over and over again hoping for something different from him. I can't be the only one participating in the relationship - that's not how it works. It takes both people being engaged. and I can't engage for him - Honestly, I feel like making any effort on my part is just chasing after him, and I don't see much good coming from it. He says he wants a relationship, but I don't think he actually wants to work at it even with some compromises. In my opinion, he is the one with the ball in his court, but wants everything completely on his terms without any concessions on his part.

FireSprite

IMO - it's "controlling" to say that you will accept a relationship with him IF he apologizes to your satisfaction/ accepts your wife/ changes the way he approaches her.

It doesn't make you WRONG to want those things, but dictating the behavior of others is not boundary setting, it's creating rules.

No one would ever blame you for having a boundary such as "not socializing with someone who doesn't respect my wife" - but since you cannot force him to respect her, where does that leave you?

Yes, you have to figure out what your boundaries are around this. We are all different about what we find acceptable or not in other people & especially our FOO.

My husband talks to his brothers & parents, but they aren't talking ABOUT me. They discuss their health, they reminisce, they probably ask about how our daughter is doing - but I never factor in, RAH isn't holding his breath for an apology for the way they've treated me in the past - he's accepted that they will never see it as necessary & that's THEIR right. He's not picking them OVER me every time he takes their calls & they aren't spending that time rehashing past events or complaining about me in any way. He's also not pushing me to dishonor my boundaries. They can have a relationship outside of me without it hurting any of us.

Look - I'm like you. If I find that I'm doing 100% of the work in ANY relationship, it's got to be examined because that is not healthy or sustainable. It sounds like it's driving you crazy & even a little like you're "keeping score" about whether & how he responds to you, in ways like this:

That's why I brought up No Contact - if they really show no signs of even wanting to consider change, how long are you going to hold your breath until they do?

Just my opinion here thoughtful - you REALLY need to decide what your Deal Breakers are for yourself & your own life.

FireSprite

Circling back to add that what matters in my example is that RAH & I are on the same page as far as this situation goes. We agree that they are invested in their dysfunction & we have different levels of tolerance for it. If this was something that created ongoing issues for us, we'd have to address it differently, I would think.

thotful

I see.

I had decided to let him go because I won't be in a relationship like that and accepted where he was at; That was years ago.

I was fine and minding my own business and working on my own recovery and family, and he called me. It brought up the old issues, and I'll need to work through letting go again. I can see why that some people don't even respond to requests to call and go full-blown no contact.

For me, I'll keep the door open, but won't hold my breath. I'd rather put my energy into other relationships in my life that are two-sided.

thotful

Interesting where I'm at now with this same relationship.

I did two things after discussion with my counselor over a period of time.

I sent an e-mail to the sibling that said "Hey, how's it going?"
and that was it. Nothing else.

I did not receive a response.

I later sent a text to double-check if the e-mail was actually used. I asked if ____ was his e-mail to use with contact. He responded with, "yeah, I use that e-mail." or something like that.

So, he indirectly admitted to stonewalling.

Funny thing, I was beginning to find a place where I think I could be comfortable with a relationship with him excluding my wife. It would be something that would be strictly bro-time. Playing video games, watching bro films, etc. Anything that felt like a family event, I would decline from attending if my wife is excluded (and no, I would not bring myself and my child - definitely not - I will not put my child through the confusion of "why can't mommy come?" -- nope).

Unfortunately, he never responded to my simple e-mail. Relationships are two-sided. I can't force him to respond.

I'm debating sending an e-mail stating that bro time would work for me, but I would need us to start from scratch with emails, etc - but, unfortunately, I doubt that will get anywhere. The history has been a lack of response.

I'll chat with my counselor about it.

maia1234

It looks like you threw him a life line and he chose to ignore it. Sounds like your life is going pretty good, not engaging. If it was me why open Pandora's Box.

As they say on this forum.... more will be revealed.

SparkleKitty

I dunno. Seems like the ball in his court, and that he appears to have decided your relationship is at an impasse.

For what it's worth, I also would not tolerate someone who refused to even attempt a civil relationship with my spouse, family member or no. Being nice to people you don't necessarily like is like a fundamental Adulting Skill.

Mango blast

Sounds like Alanon could be a very beneficial program for your wife to check out. It's made a world of difference in my relationships, no matter who or what their opinion of me... it's given me a completely new point of view of EVERYTHING in my life, helped me through the hurts, let me learn how to deal with my own pain, and how to find and allow great joy into my life... even when others don't understand me and I don't understand them.

I never knew before how to feel so okay with myself, that the rest of the outside stuff would no longer be allowed to wound me.

It's a journey... one day at a time... and if we can learn how to change our outlooks, anything is possible.