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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
I think it's been firmly established that punctuation is critical in determining if one is married to a wonderful husband or if one is breaking the law.
But enough about that. How are you today, Smarie?
But enough about that. How are you today, Smarie?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 869
Hilarious - these comments are really making my day! 
All is....well...I mean, ok. Today I am traveling for work and for the first time I wont have the stress of Abf in my home while away. That was really tough to deal with because I have never gone away for work and not had the weight of wondering if he is off tearing up the house . It will feel good to get away also. Abf doesn't like being alone so sensing a lot of anxiety around me leaving. For me, I don't mind it and always welcome a break. I'm not sure if I ever mentioned this, but despite the antics, one thing that has been ever present in our relationship is the childlike attachment he has had toward me. From excessive romantic messaging and declarations, to preoccupation of me and what I am doing at most hours of the day. This has served its own set of issues with us since I tend to like a little more breathing room in relationships (regardless of how much I do care for the person). He can sometimes interpret it as disinterest but I have always been that way.
Despite it all I do feel love for him very much and do miss him when we are apart, so I am certainly going to miss him this week. I just don't experience the same level of anxiety as he does when we are apart. I really do think part of that is the alcoholic brain because it really is so immature in many ways. There is always that child inside of them needing that love and safety. Also, let's face it...our love and relationship is not exactly rooted into the ground right now so that also causes the feeling of insecurity.
We spent a lovely weekend together (yes, in the bubble) but he has been under the stress of not feeling secure with us. I see it in his face and the way he asks me questions of reassurance. I have been honest with him in that I am doing the best I can. He ideally wants the old gal back he use to have who was excited for the future. But there is no way you can experience what I have and not be impacted greatly by it. I cannot force myself to be optimistic in the face of only knowing the negative with someone.
So I don't know what action I will take if any....we have had some good conversations recently where he is owning up to what he's done and asked if I want this or if it would be better for me to find my happiness because deep down I think he is realizing that he cannot give me what I need. Honestly, I think we both know what the logic says, but both have this "addiction" to eachother we struggle to break. Eventually something will need to give.
All is....well...I mean, ok. Today I am traveling for work and for the first time I wont have the stress of Abf in my home while away. That was really tough to deal with because I have never gone away for work and not had the weight of wondering if he is off tearing up the house . It will feel good to get away also. Abf doesn't like being alone so sensing a lot of anxiety around me leaving. For me, I don't mind it and always welcome a break. I'm not sure if I ever mentioned this, but despite the antics, one thing that has been ever present in our relationship is the childlike attachment he has had toward me. From excessive romantic messaging and declarations, to preoccupation of me and what I am doing at most hours of the day. This has served its own set of issues with us since I tend to like a little more breathing room in relationships (regardless of how much I do care for the person). He can sometimes interpret it as disinterest but I have always been that way.
Despite it all I do feel love for him very much and do miss him when we are apart, so I am certainly going to miss him this week. I just don't experience the same level of anxiety as he does when we are apart. I really do think part of that is the alcoholic brain because it really is so immature in many ways. There is always that child inside of them needing that love and safety. Also, let's face it...our love and relationship is not exactly rooted into the ground right now so that also causes the feeling of insecurity.
We spent a lovely weekend together (yes, in the bubble) but he has been under the stress of not feeling secure with us. I see it in his face and the way he asks me questions of reassurance. I have been honest with him in that I am doing the best I can. He ideally wants the old gal back he use to have who was excited for the future. But there is no way you can experience what I have and not be impacted greatly by it. I cannot force myself to be optimistic in the face of only knowing the negative with someone.
So I don't know what action I will take if any....we have had some good conversations recently where he is owning up to what he's done and asked if I want this or if it would be better for me to find my happiness because deep down I think he is realizing that he cannot give me what I need. Honestly, I think we both know what the logic says, but both have this "addiction" to eachother we struggle to break. Eventually something will need to give.
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
Posts: 4,215
I'm curious...I agree that active alcoholics seem to be very like needy, self-centered children .
What I don't understand is why you'd want to be in an adult relationship with a needy, self-centered child? What's the attraction, if there is one, and if there is, maybe that's kinda messed up?
You were excited for what future, exactly? When he might actually get divorced? When he might start being a responsible parent to his children? When he might only pee on your sofa and not vomit on it, too?
I remain baffled, but it's your life. Peace out.
What I don't understand is why you'd want to be in an adult relationship with a needy, self-centered child? What's the attraction, if there is one, and if there is, maybe that's kinda messed up?
You were excited for what future, exactly? When he might actually get divorced? When he might start being a responsible parent to his children? When he might only pee on your sofa and not vomit on it, too?
I remain baffled, but it's your life. Peace out.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,426
As an alcoholic, who grew up with an alcoholic, I was the opposite of the stereotype of "needy and self-centered".
I was putting my mother to bed at age 6, and had an ulcer from stress by 13.
My whole life was about denying my needs and meeting the needs of others.
I respectfully suggest that all alcoholics are not the same--
To generalize that we are all childlike and selfish is actually pretty offensive.
I was putting my mother to bed at age 6, and had an ulcer from stress by 13.
My whole life was about denying my needs and meeting the needs of others.
I respectfully suggest that all alcoholics are not the same--
To generalize that we are all childlike and selfish is actually pretty offensive.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
I'm not sure if I ever mentioned this, but despite the antics, one thing that has been ever present in our relationship is the childlike attachment he has had toward me. From excessive romantic messaging and declarations, to preoccupation of me and what I am doing at most hours of the day. This has served its own set of issues with us since I tend to like a little more breathing room in relationships (regardless of how much I do care for the person)
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by FireSprite 
This alone deserves major examination & screams "unhealthy" to my ears. If you haven't already, it's definitely worth discussing this component with a therapist - not why HE treats you that way, but why you say you don't "need" this in a relationship yet seem to be at a loss without it, when it's absent. Somehow, this is filling a subconscious "need" you have even if you claim otherwise. Just my opinion, of course, but it really jumped out at me reading your update.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 869
Thanks all....I do want you to know that when I write on here it isn't me neccessarily asking what I should do or why something is this or that, I am just sharing my experience. I too have been trying to piece the sense in this crazy journey Just don't want to come off like I am complaining about something seemingly so fixable. I am aware this is nuts.
This has been a strong theme in my relationships, not just this one. The partners tending to be much more "needy" than I can accommodate on so many levels. It's not so much that I am at a loss without it (in fact it is very exhausting!), it' s more so that I struggle with this hyper-responsibility issue of having it heaped onto me and finding myself unable to disappoint or hurt (ie. I respond to every text message because to not respond or to say I cannot talk right now or be bothered all day when I am trying to work, is something I have great discomfort around) . I really do trust that it is at the core of a lot of this. I think that mixed with my own level of attachment in this relationship and want to avoid pain of separation. It's not terribly uncommon for some to stay in relationships that bring them some level of pain for these very reasons.
Despite everything I say that screams toxic and dysfunctional, I do have love for this man and there is in fact a strong bond that makes the leaving part a struggle. While logically 'what makes her stay?' seems difficult to grasp, there are in fact reasons of love. Yes, I know that love means this or that and it doesn't mean this.....but love is also incredibly complex. That's what makes these struggles even exist
Just don't want to come off like I am complaining about something seemingly so fixable. I am aware this is nuts. This has been a strong theme in my relationships, not just this one. The partners tending to be much more "needy" than I can accommodate on so many levels. It's not so much that I am at a loss without it (in fact it is very exhausting!), it' s more so that I struggle with this hyper-responsibility issue of having it heaped onto me and finding myself unable to disappoint or hurt (ie. I respond to every text message because to not respond or to say I cannot talk right now or be bothered all day when I am trying to work, is something I have great discomfort around) . I really do trust that it is at the core of a lot of this. I think that mixed with my own level of attachment in this relationship and want to avoid pain of separation. It's not terribly uncommon for some to stay in relationships that bring them some level of pain for these very reasons.
Despite everything I say that screams toxic and dysfunctional, I do have love for this man and there is in fact a strong bond that makes the leaving part a struggle. While logically 'what makes her stay?' seems difficult to grasp, there are in fact reasons of love. Yes, I know that love means this or that and it doesn't mean this.....but love is also incredibly complex. That's what makes these struggles even exist
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
it' s more so that I struggle with this hyper-responsibility issue of having it heaped onto me
Something else I learned a long time ago was, I couldn’t fully devote my time and energy to attend to my own issues while I was still so closely enmeshed in his.
One day you'll figure it all out and hopefully that day will be sooner rather then later.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
That's what makes these struggles even exist
actually ....true healthy adult love has the capacity to let go in order for each party to thrive.
healthy love would not hang on and clamp down in order to assuage any personal feelings of need or dependence.
healthy love would rebuke that which is UNhealthy.
healthy love does not make us crazy, or obsessed, or bring pain.
healthy love is not a tool or a fix.
healthy love has equal concern for the loved other and self.
healthy love does not take that which is not freely given by someone who is not free to give.
healthy love needs no rationalization, or justification.
healthy love requires two healthy partners.
From Robert Burney, and his Joy2meu site
Toxic Love - the dysfunctional, addictive, cultural norm
"True Love is not a painful obsession. It is not taking a hostage or being a hostage. It is not all-consuming, isolating, or constricting. Unfortunately the type of love most of us learned about as children is in fact an addiction, a form of toxic love."
***
"If we can start seeing relationships not as the goal but as opportunities for growth then we can start having more functional relationships. A relationship that ends is not a failure or a punishment - it is a lesson."
***
"As long as we believe that we have to have the other in our life to be happy, we are really just an addict trying to protect our supply - using another person as our drug of choice. That is not True Love - nor is it Loving."
Here is a short list of the characteristics of Love vs. toxic love (compiled with the help of the work of Melody Beattie & Terence Gorski.)
1. Love - Development of self first priority.
Toxic love - Obsession with relationship.
2. Love - Room to grow, expand; desire for other to grow.
Toxic love - Security, comfort in sameness; intensity of need seen as proof of love (may really be fear, insecurity, loneliness)
3. Love - Separate interests; other friends; maintain other meaningful relationships.
Toxic love - Total involvement; limited social life; neglect old friends, interests.
4. Love - Encouragement of each other's expanding; secure in own worth.
Toxic love - Preoccupation with other's behavior; fear of other changing.
5. Love - Appropriate Trust (i.e. trusting partner to behave according to fundamental nature.)
Toxic love - Jealousy; possessiveness; fear of competition; protects "supply."
6. Love - Compromise, negotiation or taking turns at leading. Problem solving together.
Toxic love - Power plays for control; blaming; passive or aggressive manipulation.
7. Love - Embracing of each other's individuality.
Toxic love - Trying to change other to own image.
8. Love - Relationship deals with all aspects of reality.
Toxic love - Relationship is based on delusion and avoidance of the unpleasant.
9. Love - Self-care by both partners; emotional state not dependent on other's mood.
Toxic love - Expectation that one partner will fix and rescue the other.
10. Love - Loving detachment (healthy concern about partner, while letting go.)
Toxic love - Fusion (being obsessed with each other's problems and feelings.)
11. Love - Sex is free choice growing out of caring & friendship.
Toxic love - Pressure around sex due to insecurity, fear & need for immediate gratification.
12. Love - Ability to enjoy being alone.
Toxic love - Unable to endure separation; clinging.
13. Love - Cycle of comfort and contentment.
Toxic love - Cycle of pain and despair.
Love is not supposed to be painful. There is pain involved in any relationship but if it is painful most of the time then something is not working.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship - it is natural and healthy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship that will last forever - expecting it to last forever is what is dysfunctional. Expectations set us up to be a victim - and cause to abandon ourselves in search of our goal.
If we can start seeing relationships not as the goal but as opportunities for growth then we can start having more functional relationships. A relationship that ends is not a failure or a punishment - it is a lesson.
As long as our definition of a successful relationship is one that lasts forever - we are set up to fail. As long as we believe that we have to have the other in our life to be happy, we are really just an addict trying to protect our supply - using another person as our drug of choice. That is not True Love - nor is it Loving.
Toxic Love - the dysfunctional, addictive, cultural norm
actually ....true healthy adult love has the capacity to let go in order for each party to thrive.
healthy love would not hang on and clamp down in order to assuage any personal feelings of need or dependence.
healthy love would rebuke that which is UNhealthy.
healthy love does not make us crazy, or obsessed, or bring pain.
healthy love is not a tool or a fix.
healthy love has equal concern for the loved other and self.
healthy love does not take that which is not freely given by someone who is not free to give.
healthy love needs no rationalization, or justification.
healthy love requires two healthy partners.
From Robert Burney, and his Joy2meu site
Toxic Love - the dysfunctional, addictive, cultural norm
"True Love is not a painful obsession. It is not taking a hostage or being a hostage. It is not all-consuming, isolating, or constricting. Unfortunately the type of love most of us learned about as children is in fact an addiction, a form of toxic love."
***
"If we can start seeing relationships not as the goal but as opportunities for growth then we can start having more functional relationships. A relationship that ends is not a failure or a punishment - it is a lesson."
***
"As long as we believe that we have to have the other in our life to be happy, we are really just an addict trying to protect our supply - using another person as our drug of choice. That is not True Love - nor is it Loving."
Here is a short list of the characteristics of Love vs. toxic love (compiled with the help of the work of Melody Beattie & Terence Gorski.)
1. Love - Development of self first priority.
Toxic love - Obsession with relationship.
2. Love - Room to grow, expand; desire for other to grow.
Toxic love - Security, comfort in sameness; intensity of need seen as proof of love (may really be fear, insecurity, loneliness)
3. Love - Separate interests; other friends; maintain other meaningful relationships.
Toxic love - Total involvement; limited social life; neglect old friends, interests.
4. Love - Encouragement of each other's expanding; secure in own worth.
Toxic love - Preoccupation with other's behavior; fear of other changing.
5. Love - Appropriate Trust (i.e. trusting partner to behave according to fundamental nature.)
Toxic love - Jealousy; possessiveness; fear of competition; protects "supply."
6. Love - Compromise, negotiation or taking turns at leading. Problem solving together.
Toxic love - Power plays for control; blaming; passive or aggressive manipulation.
7. Love - Embracing of each other's individuality.
Toxic love - Trying to change other to own image.
8. Love - Relationship deals with all aspects of reality.
Toxic love - Relationship is based on delusion and avoidance of the unpleasant.
9. Love - Self-care by both partners; emotional state not dependent on other's mood.
Toxic love - Expectation that one partner will fix and rescue the other.
10. Love - Loving detachment (healthy concern about partner, while letting go.)
Toxic love - Fusion (being obsessed with each other's problems and feelings.)
11. Love - Sex is free choice growing out of caring & friendship.
Toxic love - Pressure around sex due to insecurity, fear & need for immediate gratification.
12. Love - Ability to enjoy being alone.
Toxic love - Unable to endure separation; clinging.
13. Love - Cycle of comfort and contentment.
Toxic love - Cycle of pain and despair.
Love is not supposed to be painful. There is pain involved in any relationship but if it is painful most of the time then something is not working.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship - it is natural and healthy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship that will last forever - expecting it to last forever is what is dysfunctional. Expectations set us up to be a victim - and cause to abandon ourselves in search of our goal.
If we can start seeing relationships not as the goal but as opportunities for growth then we can start having more functional relationships. A relationship that ends is not a failure or a punishment - it is a lesson.
As long as our definition of a successful relationship is one that lasts forever - we are set up to fail. As long as we believe that we have to have the other in our life to be happy, we are really just an addict trying to protect our supply - using another person as our drug of choice. That is not True Love - nor is it Loving.
Toxic Love - the dysfunctional, addictive, cultural norm
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 516
Smarie, I was in a relationship for several years that has some similarities to the one you're in now. The main difference between our stories is that I was also in active addiction at the time.
My family didn't approve of him. He had messy, unresolved relationships from the past. He really wasn't very nice to me except when he was obsessed with me. I knew to the very core of me that I didn't want a future with him and yet for some reason, I still couldn't walk away. I felt great frustration at reading your thread and I realise that's because I still have anger towards myself for staying in that relationship for that long. I chose to stay in the place of chaos and pain for a long time and it strikes me that you're making that very same choice.
The last thing you need is more advice but here it goes anyway - I would love if you would just visualise your future. While you're away for work, think about what you'd actually love your future to look like. Do you see it happening with this man? If so - great, at least you know. You can come back, head held high and tell your family that you love this man and he is part of your future. But if you decide you don't want to be with him, then that's ok - you don't have to be with him. His feelings will be hurt, but what about yours? When it comes to your life, really the only happiness that matters is your own. If you're staying with him so as not to hurt him, then you're not doing either of you any favours.
I'll stop ranting now but I also totally get the whole family responsibility thing. It's a struggle for me but it does get better and the guilt lessens when you start to put yourself first. NOT in a selfish way but in a self care way.
It's ok to let go of the chaos :-)
My family didn't approve of him. He had messy, unresolved relationships from the past. He really wasn't very nice to me except when he was obsessed with me. I knew to the very core of me that I didn't want a future with him and yet for some reason, I still couldn't walk away. I felt great frustration at reading your thread and I realise that's because I still have anger towards myself for staying in that relationship for that long. I chose to stay in the place of chaos and pain for a long time and it strikes me that you're making that very same choice.
The last thing you need is more advice but here it goes anyway - I would love if you would just visualise your future. While you're away for work, think about what you'd actually love your future to look like. Do you see it happening with this man? If so - great, at least you know. You can come back, head held high and tell your family that you love this man and he is part of your future. But if you decide you don't want to be with him, then that's ok - you don't have to be with him. His feelings will be hurt, but what about yours? When it comes to your life, really the only happiness that matters is your own. If you're staying with him so as not to hurt him, then you're not doing either of you any favours.
I'll stop ranting now but I also totally get the whole family responsibility thing. It's a struggle for me but it does get better and the guilt lessens when you start to put yourself first. NOT in a selfish way but in a self care way.
It's ok to let go of the chaos :-)
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
Smarie, I come from a family of immigrants. Culturally, the idea of boundaries is a bit foreign to them (no pun intended). My dad still speaks of his mom, who kept an open door, with much affection. Unfortunately, she invited into her home individuals who were mentally unstable. One man took a Coke bottle, broke it, and sliced my cousin's face. She still bears scars.
So trying to talk about "boundaries" with my dad is still an impossible venture. When you talk about your family and their dynamics, it reminds me very much of my own. And so it may be especially difficult for you to draw boundaries if you come from a family that didn't have any because they didn't need to draw them in the first place. As an introvert in a family of extroverts, I drew boundaries like nobody's business and was somewhat castigated for that. However, that ability saved me a number of times in my romantic life (believe it or not). I wish I could have tapped into that ability with my ex-fiance, but you can't win everything, sigh.
One thing that my ex-fiance taught me - sometimes I used relationships to hide from myself. I was so wrapped up in our drama that I didn't really pursue graduate school and other dreams I had. It was only when we broke up that I could pursue it. But that was scary too, because I could no longer blame him for my own inertia. I could no longer blame him from keeping me from the life I wanted. The responsibility was now all mine.
So trying to talk about "boundaries" with my dad is still an impossible venture. When you talk about your family and their dynamics, it reminds me very much of my own. And so it may be especially difficult for you to draw boundaries if you come from a family that didn't have any because they didn't need to draw them in the first place. As an introvert in a family of extroverts, I drew boundaries like nobody's business and was somewhat castigated for that. However, that ability saved me a number of times in my romantic life (believe it or not). I wish I could have tapped into that ability with my ex-fiance, but you can't win everything, sigh.
One thing that my ex-fiance taught me - sometimes I used relationships to hide from myself. I was so wrapped up in our drama that I didn't really pursue graduate school and other dreams I had. It was only when we broke up that I could pursue it. But that was scary too, because I could no longer blame him for my own inertia. I could no longer blame him from keeping me from the life I wanted. The responsibility was now all mine.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Western US
Posts: 9,002
Originally Posted by PuzzledHeart
I didn't really pursue graduate school and other dreams I had. It was only when we broke up that I could pursue it. But that was scary too, because I could no longer blame him for my own inertia. I could no longer blame him from keeping me from the life I wanted. The responsibility was now all mine.
Although when I did break up with my qualifier, I went overseas, learned to speak Spanish decently, went to graduate school and have had many adventures ; however I still do struggle with the non-structure not being in a relationship and consequently cling to my FOO.
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