Hypervigilance caused by spouse's drinking
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Hypervigilance caused by spouse's drinking
Hi Everyone,
I have been having flashbacks today of a particular part of my ex and my relationship, and am wondering if anyone else has experienced this ...
I have been working through the trauma one layer at a time, and a comment in another thread about feeling like a single parent when your spouse is drinking made me think about part of my experience ...
We have no kids of our own, but the way my ex often acted when she was drunk was almost like having an angry toddler in the house. Anyone who has ever babysat a toddler knows the feeling - they are incredibly ingenious at finding ways to hurt themselves. And you don't want them to injure themselves on your watch. And you just know that the second you drop your guard is the second they will do something stupid.
My ex ended up in hospital multiple times as a result of falls after drinking. She was so often at risk of injuring herself when she was drunk.
A number of times I would be at home and hear a crash from another room and she would have fallen again.
At this point, I knew nothing at all about alcoholism - I had never experienced it before. So I treated it like you would if your spouse had any other illness - I tried to help by trying to prevent her injuring herself ...
Often people fall on tiled floors, often near the bathtub. Hard slippery floor, hard tiled walls, not good. Many people die every year from falling and hitting their head on things like bathtubs.
Bathrooms Can Be the Most Dangerous Place in the House - The New York Times reads ...
I could not relax at all when she had been drinking. It felt like the same kind of vigilance you need to have around small kids to stop them doing crazy things like sticking metal objects into electrical outlets.
When her drinking was at it's worst, about the only time I got a break from that feeling of being "on alert" was when she was in bed either asleep or passed out after drinking. That was my favorite time of the day. I could sit on the bed at night and finally relax, knowing that she could not injure herself asleep in bed.
There were many times when I was reading a book in bed at night when she would wake up in bed still drunk, after drinking in the early evening or afternoon, she needed to use the toilet and was barely able to walk, and I felt like I needed to help her walk / stagger to the toilet. Helping someone to and from the toilet in that situation may be enabling, but when the alternative is to let someone who can barely stand up stumble into a tiled room drunk, when that person has a history of falls, it just seemed safer to make sure she got to the toilet without her falling and cracking her head open on the floor or tub.
At times when drunk she could not get up off the toilet, she just didn't have the co-ordination to do it. She likely doesn't even remember it, but there were a number of times where she would be stuck on the toilet, unable to get up. I would lift her up off the toilet and walk her back to bed.
I know that it is important to let drinkers feel the consequences of their choices, but to let a drunk woman stumble into a tiled room after the number of falls she had experienced seemed irresponsible to me.
It felt like a choice between helping her get to and from the toilet ... or spending the rest of the night at the emergency room at the hospital.
It is so strange that what would be a normal caring response if someone's lack of co-ordination was caused by something other than drinking becomes enabling when they are drinking.
The worst hypervigilance for me was when she would say she was going out to do some errand, when I was almost sure she was going to the liquor store.
She often drank in secret outside our home instead of drinking at home - so when she said "I'm going out for a while", who know where she would end up or in what state when she made these trips to the liquor store. On more than one occasion it was "at the hospital".
When I started getting PTSD-like symptoms of hypervigilence, I asked my therapist how I could stop feeling like that and my therapist pointed out that the protective adrenaline response to a family member being in danger evolved over millions of years specifically for those kinds of situations where a family member is at risk of danger ... so it was not a "false alarm" triggering it - the danger was very real.
Has anyone else dealt with these kind of feelings ?
How did you cope with the "enabling vs letting them feel consequences" thing, in situations where to not do anything would likely mean they would suffer a serious injury ?
I can fully understand letting a drunk person who had passed out on the floor sleep on the floor, so they wake up feeling very uncomfortable etc, but is that the same as letting a drunk person who falls often stumble drunk into a tiled room when you can see they are so drunk that they are clearly about to fall over ?
In my case, I could never bring myself to not help in those situations. I have no doubt that that decision to help prevented what would otherwise have been numerous trips to the hospital.
But where is that line ? At what point does someone's behaviour when drunk reach that point that to not step in would be like watching an accident that you knew was about to happen and not doing anything ?
I always drew that line when I felt she was about to injure herself, and that she would injure herself unless I did something.
I have been having flashbacks today of a particular part of my ex and my relationship, and am wondering if anyone else has experienced this ...
I have been working through the trauma one layer at a time, and a comment in another thread about feeling like a single parent when your spouse is drinking made me think about part of my experience ...
We have no kids of our own, but the way my ex often acted when she was drunk was almost like having an angry toddler in the house. Anyone who has ever babysat a toddler knows the feeling - they are incredibly ingenious at finding ways to hurt themselves. And you don't want them to injure themselves on your watch. And you just know that the second you drop your guard is the second they will do something stupid.
My ex ended up in hospital multiple times as a result of falls after drinking. She was so often at risk of injuring herself when she was drunk.
A number of times I would be at home and hear a crash from another room and she would have fallen again.
At this point, I knew nothing at all about alcoholism - I had never experienced it before. So I treated it like you would if your spouse had any other illness - I tried to help by trying to prevent her injuring herself ...
Often people fall on tiled floors, often near the bathtub. Hard slippery floor, hard tiled walls, not good. Many people die every year from falling and hitting their head on things like bathtubs.
Bathrooms Can Be the Most Dangerous Place in the House - The New York Times reads ...
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, every year about 235,000 people over age 15 visit emergency rooms because of injuries suffered in the bathroom, and almost 14 percent are hospitalized.
More than a third of the injuries happen while bathing or showering. More than 14 percent occur while using the toilet.
Injuries increase with age, peaking after 85, the researchers found. But injuries around the tub or shower are proportionately most common among those ages 15 to 24 and least common among those over 85.
More than a third of the injuries happen while bathing or showering. More than 14 percent occur while using the toilet.
Injuries increase with age, peaking after 85, the researchers found. But injuries around the tub or shower are proportionately most common among those ages 15 to 24 and least common among those over 85.
When her drinking was at it's worst, about the only time I got a break from that feeling of being "on alert" was when she was in bed either asleep or passed out after drinking. That was my favorite time of the day. I could sit on the bed at night and finally relax, knowing that she could not injure herself asleep in bed.
There were many times when I was reading a book in bed at night when she would wake up in bed still drunk, after drinking in the early evening or afternoon, she needed to use the toilet and was barely able to walk, and I felt like I needed to help her walk / stagger to the toilet. Helping someone to and from the toilet in that situation may be enabling, but when the alternative is to let someone who can barely stand up stumble into a tiled room drunk, when that person has a history of falls, it just seemed safer to make sure she got to the toilet without her falling and cracking her head open on the floor or tub.
At times when drunk she could not get up off the toilet, she just didn't have the co-ordination to do it. She likely doesn't even remember it, but there were a number of times where she would be stuck on the toilet, unable to get up. I would lift her up off the toilet and walk her back to bed.
I know that it is important to let drinkers feel the consequences of their choices, but to let a drunk woman stumble into a tiled room after the number of falls she had experienced seemed irresponsible to me.
It felt like a choice between helping her get to and from the toilet ... or spending the rest of the night at the emergency room at the hospital.
It is so strange that what would be a normal caring response if someone's lack of co-ordination was caused by something other than drinking becomes enabling when they are drinking.
The worst hypervigilance for me was when she would say she was going out to do some errand, when I was almost sure she was going to the liquor store.
She often drank in secret outside our home instead of drinking at home - so when she said "I'm going out for a while", who know where she would end up or in what state when she made these trips to the liquor store. On more than one occasion it was "at the hospital".
When I started getting PTSD-like symptoms of hypervigilence, I asked my therapist how I could stop feeling like that and my therapist pointed out that the protective adrenaline response to a family member being in danger evolved over millions of years specifically for those kinds of situations where a family member is at risk of danger ... so it was not a "false alarm" triggering it - the danger was very real.
Has anyone else dealt with these kind of feelings ?
How did you cope with the "enabling vs letting them feel consequences" thing, in situations where to not do anything would likely mean they would suffer a serious injury ?
I can fully understand letting a drunk person who had passed out on the floor sleep on the floor, so they wake up feeling very uncomfortable etc, but is that the same as letting a drunk person who falls often stumble drunk into a tiled room when you can see they are so drunk that they are clearly about to fall over ?
In my case, I could never bring myself to not help in those situations. I have no doubt that that decision to help prevented what would otherwise have been numerous trips to the hospital.
But where is that line ? At what point does someone's behaviour when drunk reach that point that to not step in would be like watching an accident that you knew was about to happen and not doing anything ?
I always drew that line when I felt she was about to injure herself, and that she would injure herself unless I did something.
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Another article about the risks of falls in bathrooms ...
The Top 5 Causes of Accidental Home Injury Deaths?and How to Prevent Them | Real Estate | US News reads ...
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"Falling is the leading cause of unintentional home injury deaths; it claims nearly 6,000 lives per year, according to the Home Safety Council. And although there are all sorts of ways to reduce this risk, Appy recommends that homeowners install grab bars in their bathtubs and showers. "The reason I worry about bathrooms is because if you fall in the tub or the shower, you are falling onto such a hard surface," which can result in a more severe injury, Appy says. ...
Water: Drowning and submersions in water account for some 800 deaths a year. Again, water can be a particular threat to children. "People don't realize that a very young child can drown in as little as an inch or two or water," Appy says. "Certainly, a backyard pool, a bathtub, any amount of standing water can be a deadly danger to a small child." There are certain steps parents can take to reduce the threat of water-related deaths, such as installing a fence at least 4 feet high with a self-closing and self-latching gate around their pool. But the best protection against the risk of water is old-fashioned vigilance. "You have to be within an arm's reach of a child and paying attention. We call it touch supervision—you are looking at the child, and you can reach out and touch the child," she says. "Never, never let your guard down if there is water around.""
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Given that living with an alcoholic at times can be like having a small child in the house, I don't know the solution to this problem.
The Top 5 Causes of Accidental Home Injury Deaths?and How to Prevent Them | Real Estate | US News reads ...
--------
"Falling is the leading cause of unintentional home injury deaths; it claims nearly 6,000 lives per year, according to the Home Safety Council. And although there are all sorts of ways to reduce this risk, Appy recommends that homeowners install grab bars in their bathtubs and showers. "The reason I worry about bathrooms is because if you fall in the tub or the shower, you are falling onto such a hard surface," which can result in a more severe injury, Appy says. ...
Water: Drowning and submersions in water account for some 800 deaths a year. Again, water can be a particular threat to children. "People don't realize that a very young child can drown in as little as an inch or two or water," Appy says. "Certainly, a backyard pool, a bathtub, any amount of standing water can be a deadly danger to a small child." There are certain steps parents can take to reduce the threat of water-related deaths, such as installing a fence at least 4 feet high with a self-closing and self-latching gate around their pool. But the best protection against the risk of water is old-fashioned vigilance. "You have to be within an arm's reach of a child and paying attention. We call it touch supervision—you are looking at the child, and you can reach out and touch the child," she says. "Never, never let your guard down if there is water around.""
--------
Given that living with an alcoholic at times can be like having a small child in the house, I don't know the solution to this problem.
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This is a tough one, isn't it, TTHG? When does helping become enabling? I struggle with this question as well. My alcoholic sib lives with my mother, who has, on occasion, asked me to buy whiskey for him because he has run out and is too shaky to get it on his own. I am not consistent in my response. Sometimes I do,sometimes I don't. Whichever way I go, it doesn't feel good. But....nothing about my brother's alcoholism feels good. I do what I do because I want to spare my mother the ramifications of a strung-out drunk. Been there. Isn't pretty. Yet, it was my parents' choice to let him live there, to move back in not once but several times. Their choice, not mine. Arrrrrggghhh! This very thing comes up in Al-Anon meetings, and people are always divided. The "let them stay on the toilet till rapture" group vs.the "they could fall over and die and then how would I feel" group. If you can't get a clear decision at an Al-Anon meeting, where can you? This has turned into a longer post than it started out to be. I guess the topic really resonates with me. Bottom line for me always: go with your gut. I will be interested to see what others have to say on the subject. Glad you are talking to a therapist. That is probably very helpful for your serenity.
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Originally Posted by timetohealguy 
How did you cope with the "enabling vs letting them feel consequences" thing, in situations where to not do anything would likely mean they would suffer a serious injury ?
I can fully understand letting a drunk person who had passed out on the floor sleep on the floor, so they wake up feeling very uncomfortable etc, but is that the same as letting a drunk person who falls often stumble drunk into a tiled room when you can see they are so drunk that they are clearly about to fall over ?
In my case, I could never bring myself to not help in those situations. I have no doubt that that decision to help prevented what would otherwise have been numerous trips to the hospital.
But where is that line ? At what point does someone's behaviour when drunk reach that point that to not step in would be like watching an accident that you knew was about to happen and not doing anything ?
I always drew that line when I felt she was about to injure herself, and that she would injure herself unless I did something.
I can fully understand letting a drunk person who had passed out on the floor sleep on the floor, so they wake up feeling very uncomfortable etc, but is that the same as letting a drunk person who falls often stumble drunk into a tiled room when you can see they are so drunk that they are clearly about to fall over ?
In my case, I could never bring myself to not help in those situations. I have no doubt that that decision to help prevented what would otherwise have been numerous trips to the hospital.
But where is that line ? At what point does someone's behaviour when drunk reach that point that to not step in would be like watching an accident that you knew was about to happen and not doing anything ?
I always drew that line when I felt she was about to injure herself, and that she would injure herself unless I did something.
If your spouse is drunk and about to get into a car and drive, most people would attempt to stop them driving while drunk, both to prevent them hurting themselves and innocent drivers and pedestrians.
So is not helping someone who is drunk and very likely about to fall over and injure themselves (potentially seriously) similar to letting a drunk person drive ?
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Well, as a former drinker, I too had my share of falls. Once I fell all the way down the stairs from the second level to the first. Still amazed that I didn't break anything. I have tripped over lawn furniture, rugs, end tables. Bruises and soreness, no breaks. Only thing I can think of that saved me was that I was hammered and therefore, pretty boneless. Still. I was lucky.
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Hi Maudcat,
Thanks for your reply.
Yes it definitely is.
Yes I always went with my gut. I guess I am in the "they could fall over and die and then how would I feel" group.
Thanks for your reply.
Originally Posted by Maudcat
This is a tough one, isn't it, TTHG?
Originally Posted by Maudcat
When does helping become enabling? I struggle with this question as well. ...
Whichever way I go, it doesn't feel good.
But....nothing about my brother's alcoholism feels good. ... Been there. Isn't pretty. ...
Arrrrrggghhh! This very thing comes up in Al-Anon meetings, and people are always divided. The "let them stay on the toilet till rapture" group vs.the "they could fall over and die and then how would I feel" group. If you can't get a clear decision at an Al-Anon meeting, where can you? ...
Bottom line for me always: go with your gut.
Whichever way I go, it doesn't feel good.
But....nothing about my brother's alcoholism feels good. ... Been there. Isn't pretty. ...
Arrrrrggghhh! This very thing comes up in Al-Anon meetings, and people are always divided. The "let them stay on the toilet till rapture" group vs.the "they could fall over and die and then how would I feel" group. If you can't get a clear decision at an Al-Anon meeting, where can you? ...
Bottom line for me always: go with your gut.
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Originally Posted by Maudcat
Well, as a former drinker, I too had my share of falls. Once I fell all the way down the stairs from the second level to the first. Still amazed that I didn't break anything. I have tripped over lawn furniture, rugs, end tables. Bruises and soreness, no breaks. Only thing I can think of that saved me was that I was hammered and therefore, pretty boneless. Still. I was lucky.
My theory is that the more falls someone has, the more likely they end up seriously injured at some point - like a numbers game. If someone is falling over drunk a lot, it seems like only a matter of time until they make contact with a hard object in a fall or fall at the wrong angle and get injured.
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Sending you a hug, first of all.
I 'd like to offer you something to tell yourself when you start down this path...
"I did the best I could with what I knew at the time."
I went through your thread history and you are spending sooo much time analyzing and researching and rehashing your ex's alcoholism. It's like you're still trying to figure out how YOU could have controlled this situation so that it would have turned out differently?
Honey, drunks drink. They drink for good reasons and bad reasons and holidays and Tuesdays and because they had a bad day and because they had a good day and somewhere along the line "I want a drink" becomes "I need a drink" and then becomes "I have to drink and that's all that matters."
You could not control it then, you certainly can't control it now, and holding yourself hostage to the past trying to defend and justify your actions just destroys your present and your future.
You did what you thought was right and it was never yours to solve, anyway.
Time to turn your face to the sun, feel the wind at your back, and sail on, yes?
I 'd like to offer you something to tell yourself when you start down this path...
"I did the best I could with what I knew at the time."
I went through your thread history and you are spending sooo much time analyzing and researching and rehashing your ex's alcoholism. It's like you're still trying to figure out how YOU could have controlled this situation so that it would have turned out differently?
Honey, drunks drink. They drink for good reasons and bad reasons and holidays and Tuesdays and because they had a bad day and because they had a good day and somewhere along the line "I want a drink" becomes "I need a drink" and then becomes "I have to drink and that's all that matters."
You could not control it then, you certainly can't control it now, and holding yourself hostage to the past trying to defend and justify your actions just destroys your present and your future.
You did what you thought was right and it was never yours to solve, anyway.
Time to turn your face to the sun, feel the wind at your back, and sail on, yes?
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I agree with ariesagain, you are focusing precious time & energy
on others, and this can be a way of bullying yourself. Please
check out this link about self compassion. Are you going to
any alanon or acoa meetings? Please take ariesagain words
to heart...... see the big picture....
Definition and Three Elements of Self Compassion | Kristin Neff
on others, and this can be a way of bullying yourself. Please
check out this link about self compassion. Are you going to
any alanon or acoa meetings? Please take ariesagain words
to heart...... see the big picture....
Definition and Three Elements of Self Compassion | Kristin Neff
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Oh my goodness Ariesagain, your post literally brought tears to my eyes. You have gotten right to the heart of what I've been going through emotionally ...
Thanks for the hug 
That is so true. That is the bit that made me cry
I did do the best with what I knew at the time.
As you can likely tell from my posts, I'm suffering something PTSD-like symptoms, and a big part of healing from that is reprocessing things from a healthy perspective, with the distance that time provides.
I was completely overwhelmed when it was was all going on and could not process any of it. Part of PTSD recovery is a kind of re-exposure therapy where as traumatic things come into my mind, instead of ignoring them, I reprocess them from a healthy perspective. So I guess this thread is an example of that in action ... I started today having these thoughts / flashbacks about that hypervigilance, then I talk about it and then end up looking at it in a healthier way.
"I did the best I could with what I knew at the time" is a great bit of healthy reprocessing - thanks
I guess the hardest thing for me is coming to terms with the fact that my best was not enough.
When we were still together, I tried and tried and tried until I was literally exhausted - I have never felt so physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted in my life ... and then when I was absolutely running on empty, I just kept trying. I was in that overwhelmed state for many many months, just terrified that she was going to die as a result of her drinking.
It's a feeling of failure after putting every single ounce of your being and more into trying to make sure that it all didn't end in disaster.
It's only now that I have no hope left for the relationship that I am processing the finality of it all.
Yes you're right.
I had very good advice at the time from a senior therapist who was guiding me every step of the way for years in trying to move my ex from absolute denial to doing something about her drinking.
I have been on a quest to understand it all. And I have realised by learning more and more myself that the advice my therapist was giving me throughout it all about what to do at each step was spot on.
You're right, and "holding myself hostage" is a good way of putting it.
Thanks so much for your post
Originally Posted by Ariesagain
Sending you a hug, first of all.
Originally Posted by Ariesagain
I 'd like to offer you something to tell yourself when you start down this path...
"I did the best I could with what I knew at the time."
"I did the best I could with what I knew at the time."
I did do the best with what I knew at the time.
As you can likely tell from my posts, I'm suffering something PTSD-like symptoms, and a big part of healing from that is reprocessing things from a healthy perspective, with the distance that time provides.
I was completely overwhelmed when it was was all going on and could not process any of it. Part of PTSD recovery is a kind of re-exposure therapy where as traumatic things come into my mind, instead of ignoring them, I reprocess them from a healthy perspective. So I guess this thread is an example of that in action ... I started today having these thoughts / flashbacks about that hypervigilance, then I talk about it and then end up looking at it in a healthier way.
"I did the best I could with what I knew at the time" is a great bit of healthy reprocessing - thanks
I guess the hardest thing for me is coming to terms with the fact that my best was not enough.
When we were still together, I tried and tried and tried until I was literally exhausted - I have never felt so physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted in my life ... and then when I was absolutely running on empty, I just kept trying. I was in that overwhelmed state for many many months, just terrified that she was going to die as a result of her drinking.
It's a feeling of failure after putting every single ounce of your being and more into trying to make sure that it all didn't end in disaster.
It's only now that I have no hope left for the relationship that I am processing the finality of it all.
Originally Posted by Ariesagain
I went through your thread history and you are spending sooo much time analyzing and researching and rehashing your ex's alcoholism. It's like you're still trying to figure out how YOU could have controlled this situation so that it would have turned out differently?
I had very good advice at the time from a senior therapist who was guiding me every step of the way for years in trying to move my ex from absolute denial to doing something about her drinking.
I have been on a quest to understand it all. And I have realised by learning more and more myself that the advice my therapist was giving me throughout it all about what to do at each step was spot on.
Originally Posted by Ariesagain
Honey, drunks drink. They drink for good reasons and bad reasons and holidays and Tuesdays and because they had a bad day and because they had a good day and somewhere along the line "I want a drink" becomes "I need a drink" and then becomes "I have to drink and that's all that matters."
You could not control it then, you certainly can't control it now, and holding yourself hostage to the past trying to defend and justify your actions just destroys your present and your future.
You did what you thought was right and it was never yours to solve, anyway.
Time to turn your face to the sun, feel the wind at your back, and sail on, yes?
You could not control it then, you certainly can't control it now, and holding yourself hostage to the past trying to defend and justify your actions just destroys your present and your future.
You did what you thought was right and it was never yours to solve, anyway.
Time to turn your face to the sun, feel the wind at your back, and sail on, yes?
Thanks so much for your post
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Are you seeing a therapist now? Having someone who can gently redirect us toward the present when we're mired in the past can be really helpful.
I read a great article the other day about how "plastic" our brains are...we really can retrain our thought patterns the way we train our muscles. I found that really hopeful, so I pass it along.
Have another hug!
I read a great article the other day about how "plastic" our brains are...we really can retrain our thought patterns the way we train our muscles. I found that really hopeful, so I pass it along.
Have another hug!
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Originally Posted by mylifeismine
I agree with ariesagain, you are focusing precious time & energy
on others, and this can be a way of bullying yourself. Please
check out this link about self compassion. Are you going to
any alanon or acoa meetings? Please take ariesagain words
to heart...... see the big picture....
Definition and Three Elements of Self Compassion | Kristin Neff
on others, and this can be a way of bullying yourself. Please
check out this link about self compassion. Are you going to
any alanon or acoa meetings? Please take ariesagain words
to heart...... see the big picture....
Definition and Three Elements of Self Compassion | Kristin Neff
I hadn't thought of it as "this can be a way of bullying yourself", but you are right.
There is a line in that article that reads ...
"Instead of mercilessly judging and criticizing yourself for various inadequacies or shortcomings, self-compassion means you are kind and understanding when confronted with personal failings – after all, who ever said you were supposed to be perfect?"
My therapist actually said exactly those same words "who said you were supposed to be perfect ?" a while back !
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I agree TTHG - it's time to think about forgiving yourself.
This was an incredibly, INCREDIBLY easier-said-than-done part of my healing & it can be ongoing as new awarenesses are made in my journey.
It is probably the hardest kind of forgiveness, IMO - forgiveness of Self.
Hard to accept & know that we did everything we could, to the best of our abilities, with what we had at the time & that now - it's time to stop punishing ourselves for perceived failures. In time we see that they were never failures in any way at all - that was just our way of interpreting when we felt that we somehow fell short on solutions or patience. Time to stop holding ourselves up to some expectation of perfectionism.
With all the reading & linking of articles that you do here TTHG - isn't it time to focus a bit more on YOU? (I'm not discounting the value of knowledge about past events but I think we can all agree that you are far enough into that process to risk tackling a new vein of healing.
)
ETA:
Some great old threads about forgiveness:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-yourself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ng-myself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ally-mean.html
This was an incredibly, INCREDIBLY easier-said-than-done part of my healing & it can be ongoing as new awarenesses are made in my journey.
It is probably the hardest kind of forgiveness, IMO - forgiveness of Self.
Hard to accept & know that we did everything we could, to the best of our abilities, with what we had at the time & that now - it's time to stop punishing ourselves for perceived failures. In time we see that they were never failures in any way at all - that was just our way of interpreting when we felt that we somehow fell short on solutions or patience. Time to stop holding ourselves up to some expectation of perfectionism.
With all the reading & linking of articles that you do here TTHG - isn't it time to focus a bit more on YOU? (I'm not discounting the value of knowledge about past events but I think we can all agree that you are far enough into that process to risk tackling a new vein of healing.
)ETA:
Some great old threads about forgiveness:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-yourself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ng-myself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ally-mean.html
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Originally Posted by Ariesagain
Are you seeing a therapist now? Having someone who can gently redirect us toward the present when we're mired in the past can be really helpful.
Originally Posted by Ariesagain
I read a great article the other day about how "plastic" our brains are...we really can retrain our thought patterns the way we train our muscles. I found that really hopeful, so I pass it along.
Originally Posted by Ariesagain
Have another hug!
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I just saw your signature mylifeismine ...
Such wise words !
Someone who is worthy of your love will never
put you in a situation where you feel you must
sacrifice your dignity, your integity, or your self-
worth to be with them~ Unknown
put you in a situation where you feel you must
sacrifice your dignity, your integity, or your self-
worth to be with them~ Unknown
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Hi Firesprite,
Thanks for your reply.
You're right - that is exactly what I have been doing ... "that was just our way of interpreting when we felt that we somehow fell short on solutions or patience".
Yes you're right.
I think part of the way I approached everything was that I thought if I simply learned enough about alcoholism, how alcoholics behave, the neurochemistry, the psychology of it etc, that I'd then be able to help heal my ex's drinking and our relationship, and then by helping to heal my ex's drinking and our relationship, that would somehow heal me. I felt like it would put things right, and since no one else involved in the situation with my ex had put things right, I thought "well dammit then I'll do it myself"
I hadn't really thought about putting my needs first. I have a bit of a confused expression on my face as I type that - putting my needs first seems very novel to me. I am not sure what that says about me ?
Thanks - I'll read them.
Thanks for your reply.
Originally Posted by FireSprite
I agree TTHG - it's time to think about forgiving yourself.
This was an incredibly, INCREDIBLY easier-said-than-done part of my healing & it can be ongoing as new awarenesses are made in my journey.
It is probably the hardest kind of forgiveness, IMO - forgiveness of Self.
Hard to accept & know that we did everything we could, to the best of our abilities, with what we had at the time & that now - it's time to stop punishing ourselves for perceived failures. In time we see that they were never failures in any way at all - that was just our way of interpreting when we felt that we somehow fell short on solutions or patience. Time to stop holding ourselves up to some expectation of perfectionism.
This was an incredibly, INCREDIBLY easier-said-than-done part of my healing & it can be ongoing as new awarenesses are made in my journey.
It is probably the hardest kind of forgiveness, IMO - forgiveness of Self.
Hard to accept & know that we did everything we could, to the best of our abilities, with what we had at the time & that now - it's time to stop punishing ourselves for perceived failures. In time we see that they were never failures in any way at all - that was just our way of interpreting when we felt that we somehow fell short on solutions or patience. Time to stop holding ourselves up to some expectation of perfectionism.
Originally Posted by FireSprite
With all the reading & linking of articles that you do here TTHG - isn't it time to focus a bit more on YOU? (I'm not discounting the value of knowledge about past events but I think we can all agree that you are far enough into that process to risk tackling a new vein of healing. )
)I think part of the way I approached everything was that I thought if I simply learned enough about alcoholism, how alcoholics behave, the neurochemistry, the psychology of it etc, that I'd then be able to help heal my ex's drinking and our relationship, and then by helping to heal my ex's drinking and our relationship, that would somehow heal me. I felt like it would put things right, and since no one else involved in the situation with my ex had put things right, I thought "well dammit then I'll do it myself"
I hadn't really thought about putting my needs first. I have a bit of a confused expression on my face as I type that - putting my needs first seems very novel to me. I am not sure what that says about me ?
Originally Posted by FireSprite
ETA:
Some great old threads about forgiveness:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-yourself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ng-myself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ally-mean.html
Some great old threads about forgiveness:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-yourself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ng-myself.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ally-mean.html
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If I may toss in my .02
I, too, obsessed on understanding what went wrong in my marriage. Like you stated, kind of like a PTSD thing. What I did different from you is that I read _all_ the al-anon literature. All the books and all the pamphlets.
All of it.
Have you ever looked thru the al-anon literature catalog? You have to be a little bit off in the head to read _all_ of that stuff
Yes, exactly the way I felt. What I have learned in recovery is that there is a _reason_ why my best was not enough. In my case I focused my best on the wrong objective; getting my ex to change.
The correct objective should have been, in my case, giving her the dignity to make her own choices in life.
I gave her that dignity when I _asked_ her to marry me, but when the addiction crept into our lives I stopped treating her choices with that dignity. That was where I failed.
My marriage ended in disaster, in spite of all my mis-directed efforts. It's kind of like trying to stop a tornado from ripping thru a house by standing in front of it. The correct response is to go hide in the storm shelter.
Another thing I have learned in recovery is that a "character defect", such as my obsessing over reading all of the alanon literature, is just a virtue focused on the wrong objective. So what I do now, as part of my recovery, is attend alanon meetings and volunteer to be the literature person. Newcomers always want to know which book they should purchase, what the difference is from one book to another. Guess who knows what is contained in every single book?
Mike
I, too, obsessed on understanding what went wrong in my marriage. Like you stated, kind of like a PTSD thing. What I did different from you is that I read _all_ the al-anon literature. All the books and all the pamphlets.
All of it.
Have you ever looked thru the al-anon literature catalog? You have to be a little bit off in the head to read _all_ of that stuff
Originally Posted by timetohealguy
.... I guess the hardest thing for me is coming to terms with the fact that my best was not enough. ....
The correct objective should have been, in my case, giving her the dignity to make her own choices in life.
I gave her that dignity when I _asked_ her to marry me, but when the addiction crept into our lives I stopped treating her choices with that dignity. That was where I failed.
Originally Posted by timetohealguy
.... It's a feeling of failure after putting every single ounce of your being and more into trying to make sure that it all didn't end in disaster. ....
Another thing I have learned in recovery is that a "character defect", such as my obsessing over reading all of the alanon literature, is just a virtue focused on the wrong objective. So what I do now, as part of my recovery, is attend alanon meetings and volunteer to be the literature person. Newcomers always want to know which book they should purchase, what the difference is from one book to another. Guess who knows what is contained in every single book?
Mike
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I DO understand - I had an extreme thirst for knowledge for all things related to addiction when I started this process. I read everything from every angle - I NEEDED to understand for my own sanity.
The difference for me was that RAH was a secret drinker & I hadn't been aware that alcoholism was what we were dealing with or I could easily see myself going Super-Codie in an attempt to "fix" him if I had. In hindsight, he did me a huge favor by keeping such good secrets & I am grateful because I probably wouldn't have come to my recovery ~willingly~ in any other way.
I came to understand that all ^^that^^ logic was never going solve what was an emotional problem. All of the understanding in the world was never going to give me the tools to fix anything on his side of the street - but it DID help me to understand that the hardware store was never going to sell bread & how/where to lay down some more reasonable boundaries.
The difference for me was that RAH was a secret drinker & I hadn't been aware that alcoholism was what we were dealing with or I could easily see myself going Super-Codie in an attempt to "fix" him if I had. In hindsight, he did me a huge favor by keeping such good secrets & I am grateful because I probably wouldn't have come to my recovery ~willingly~ in any other way.
I came to understand that all ^^that^^ logic was never going solve what was an emotional problem. All of the understanding in the world was never going to give me the tools to fix anything on his side of the street - but it DID help me to understand that the hardware store was never going to sell bread & how/where to lay down some more reasonable boundaries.
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply ...
Of course
Ha ha. I can relate to that. If I told you how many articles and books I have read over the last few years about all this stuff, you would be shocked.
When I had read most of the general articles I could get my hands on, I started reading articles in medical journals ha ha.
Yes I was trying to get my ex to change too.
I can totally relate to that. When my ex relapsed, I was so horrified that she was drinking again.
That's a GREAT analogy !
There was a video I saw where a doctor was talking about researching if there was a genetic reason that people who tend to have addictions may have some advantage in terms of evolution.
So he asked a group of people in recovery something like "if a marauding horde of vikings came over that hill, what would you do ?". Apparently they almost all replied that they would pick up a weapon and run towards the vikings.
The doctor said that at that moment, he realised that having a group of people in a society who will run towards hostile invaders instead of running away from the invaders, forms a valuable thing for society.
I think I am one of those "pick up a stick and run towards the problem head on" kind of people, so hiding in the storm shelter doesn't come naturally to me.
I saw my ex's drinking problem in the same way - it was a problem that needed to be attacked and defeated.
That's a great way to use your knowledge and a great way to help others !
Thanks for your reply ...
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
If I may toss in my .02
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
I, too, obsessed on understanding what went wrong in my marriage. Like you stated, kind of like a PTSD thing. What I did different from you is that I read _all_ the al-anon literature. All the books and all the pamphlets.
All of it.
Have you ever looked thru the al-anon literature catalog? You have to be a little bit off in the head to read _all_ of that stuff
All of it.
Have you ever looked thru the al-anon literature catalog? You have to be a little bit off in the head to read _all_ of that stuff
When I had read most of the general articles I could get my hands on, I started reading articles in medical journals ha ha.
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
What I have learned in recovery is that there is a _reason_ why my best was not enough. In my case I focused my best on the wrong objective; getting my ex to change.
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
The correct objective should have been, in my case, giving her the dignity to make her own choices in life.
I gave her that dignity when I _asked_ her to marry me, but when the addiction crept into our lives I stopped treating her choices with that dignity.
I gave her that dignity when I _asked_ her to marry me, but when the addiction crept into our lives I stopped treating her choices with that dignity.
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
My marriage ended in disaster, in spite of all my mis-directed efforts. It's kind of like trying to stop a tornado from ripping thru a house by standing in front of it. The correct response is to go hide in the storm shelter.
There was a video I saw where a doctor was talking about researching if there was a genetic reason that people who tend to have addictions may have some advantage in terms of evolution.
So he asked a group of people in recovery something like "if a marauding horde of vikings came over that hill, what would you do ?". Apparently they almost all replied that they would pick up a weapon and run towards the vikings.
The doctor said that at that moment, he realised that having a group of people in a society who will run towards hostile invaders instead of running away from the invaders, forms a valuable thing for society.
I think I am one of those "pick up a stick and run towards the problem head on" kind of people, so hiding in the storm shelter doesn't come naturally to me.
I saw my ex's drinking problem in the same way - it was a problem that needed to be attacked and defeated.
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
Another thing I have learned in recovery is that a "character defect", such as my obsessing over reading all of the alanon literature, is just a virtue focused on the wrong objective. So what I do now, as part of my recovery, is attend alanon meetings and volunteer to be the literature person. Newcomers always want to know which book they should purchase, what the difference is from one book to another. Guess who knows what is contained in every single book?
Mike
Mike
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