mylifeismine

"I had very good advice at the time from a senior therapist who was guiding me every step of the way for years in trying to move my ex from absolute denial to doing something about her drinking."

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it a little disturbing that a
therapist would do this?

mylifeismine

TTHG,
Seems to me a therapist would know one can't make an alcoholic
change unless they want to, so why all the time spent trying to
change her?

timetohealguy

There is an addition therapy method called Motivational Interviewing, which is used in SMART Recovery and other forms of therapy too ...

http://alcoholrehab.com/addiction-ar...-interviewing/ reads ...

--------
"Motivational interviewing is a method of addiction counseling that focuses on the client. This is a goal-oriented addiction treatment which emphasizes results and seeks to help alcoholics clear the hurdle of ambivalence.

The entire motivational interviewing process focuses on the desire to change within the client. This desire is not pushed on them by the counselor. Instead, this desire is developed by establishing rapport with the client and encouraging them to consider the consequences of their addictive behavior. When successful, motivational interviewing helps alcoholics find it within themselves to take life in a new and healthier direction."
--------

There is a PDF here about it's use in SMART Recovery ...

http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/UsingMIinSR.pdf

It worked with my ex to get her to the point of admitting she had a problem, but since I am not a trained therapist and she was initially refusing to talk to a therapist about alcohol, it took about a year of using motivational interviewing methods to get her from "I have no problem whatsoever with alcohol" to "I need to quit drinking permanently", at which point she then did alcohol counselling and got sober for a number of months. During that period of sobriety, she did really great - honest inventory, made amends, the works.

There is a chart on page 7 of the PDF showing the steps of progress.

I simply asked my therapist if there was any way in which I could increase my ex's chances of getting sober in terms of my conversations with my ex when she was drinking, and my therapist told me about the motivational interviewing method.

FireSprite

I missed the "years" part & I'm a little surprised at that investment of time too - how much success do you think you achieved over how many years?

I'm asking because I don't know what this program considers a reasonable amount of time to invest in that process?

timetohealguy

Since she was initially refusing to talk to a therapist about alcohol, my only option to try to get her to do something about her drinking was for whenever there was an alcohol incident, for me the next day to try to talk to her about that incident and to do that in a way that incorporated motivational interviewing ideas.

From my post above ...

--------
"since I am not a trained therapist and she was initially refusing to talk to a therapist about alcohol, it took about a year of using motivational interviewing methods to get her from "I have no problem whatsoever with alcohol" to "I need to quit drinking permanently", at which point she then did alcohol counselling and got sober for a number of months. During that period of sobriety, she did really great - honest inventory, made amends, the works."
--------

Motivational interviewing is of course designed to be used by therapists, but my thoughts were if a spouse is heading for an early grave unless they stop drinking, and stopping drinking is clearly positive for them, I saw no ethical problems with using a proven therapy method to improve communication and help shift them out of denial.

Prior to putting motivational interviewing principles into conversations I had with her about alcohol, she would not even talk to me about her drinking. Any attempt by me to talk to her about her drinking prior to that was met with self righteous indignation and outright rage.

After a few months sober, when she relapsed she then stopped seeing the therapist who had done the alcohol counselling with her that got her sober.

Frankly without the motivational interviewing stuff, she would never have co-operated with the therapist who got her sober because she would have still been in "I have no problem whatsoever with alcohol" mode.

I don't pretend that I got her sober - I just laid the groundwork with motivational interviewing methods so that when she eventually agreed to speak to a therapist about alcohol, she was at the point that the therapist was not dealing with "I have no problem whatsoever with alcohol" and was instead dealing with someone in the mindset of "I need to quit drinking permanently"

mylifeismine

Not trying to put you on the spot or anything like that, asking
out of genuine concern, but hoping if you are still in therapy it is
completely centered around your personal growth & needs, and
not trying to change anyone else. And of course,
I recommend alanon, its has helped me in so very many ways!
It taught me not to discuss alcohol use with my AH, so I
don't, but things are changing for the better anyway. But
that is only only because HE wants to.

timetohealguy

My therapy now is about helping me.

Yes if you are dealing with a spouse who wants to change, that's a great advantage.

The motivational interviewing method is definitely different to some other methods, but when she was initially in deep denial about alcohol, I found it a very useful tool. It is all about helping someone become someone who wants to change.

As I saw her finally moving from "not ready to change" to "thinking of change" to "undecided / uncertain" to "somewhat ready" then "very ready to change", it gave me hope. As I could see it working, I developed confidence in it, got some momentum.

It also helps the sober spouse stay positive and to be able to see change happening.

mylifeismine

"Yes if you are dealing with a spouse who wants to change, that's a great advantage."

Just so I haven't given the wrong impression, I go to alanon
strictly for me. It's all about me, and my personal growth,
in a safe environment that slowly brings me out of the
insanity of living with an active alcoholic. Not discussing
their alcohol use is for my sanity only, with no intention
of changing them. It's called "staying on your side of the
street", minding your own life. I look at my own faults,
how I can be better, what my needs are, how I can fill them.
Focus is only on what I can change, me, in a healthy way.

I also consider that I had abandoned myself, and now that
I know better, I will do better, and never let that happen again.

FireSprite

It's actually not about that at all - Like My Life said, it has nothing to do with the addict specifically or their desire to get sober or not. It's about learning to manage your own side of the street & learning to stop focusing on the alcoholic.

We have a saying around here that you cannot pour from an empty cup - meaning of course, that you have to take care of yourself first in order to have something of value to share with others. You have a fairly empty cup right now, based on this share:

Have you given any thought to YOUR actual needs, emotionally & otherwise?

mylifeismine

The old agage "the truth will set you free" the truth is
I didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it.

I have to have self responsibility and the choices that
come with it. I am responsible for my own happiness
and taking care of myself and getting my needs met.
Setting boundaries, enforcing them like emotionally
healthy people do.

So alanon helps me do that. I rarely mention AH in meetings,
the focus is on my needs and growth. The tools to do that,
not easy though, but worth it!

honeypig

tthg, at some point, the light is all going to come shining through--you're going to sit up and go "OMG!! I am a person MYSELF, and I AM ALLOWED to have needs and, even more astoundingly, I AM ALLOWED TO HAVE THEM MET!! My whole being doesn't center around someone else, especially someone else who is an alcoholic and who cannot, simply CANNOT, be a partner to me b/c her addiction will always take a front seat."

Right now, I'm sure it sounds like we're all speaking Mandarin Chinese at you, but keep at it, keep trying. One day you will get it, and you won't be able to believe how you used to live.

Bekindalways

Love this thread Timetohealguy and it is indeed looking like that Healing Time is near.

Take what ever baby step you can towards identifying a need/joy/desire and then start tiptoeing towards getting it fulfilled.

timetohealguy

Thanks so much to everyone who has helped me so much with thoughts and support in this thread. I hugely appreciate everyone's input.

Reading everyone's replies has felt like a therapy session and it is so healing to get input from others who have trod this same path before me. There is a true sense of helping others heal here.



I hope discussing my healing also helps others going through similar issues.

timetohealguy

You have hit the nail on the head honeypig.

When my ex was drinking, I did the opposite of that. I put my needs way way way last, thinking that once she was well again there would then be some room for my needs again.

When she got sober for a few months, there was some room for me, but after she relapsed, that room for me disappeared and apart from a few short periods, never came back.

I think that part of my difficulty is that having lived in that mode for so long of putting someone else first all the time, it can be a hard thing to switch that mode off and start thinking about yourself again.

A number of my ex's friends said to me in the midst of her drinking that they didn't know how I was able to keep going and to do what I was doing for so long. I just saw it as patience, stubbornness and perseverance. I assumed many other people had done the same thing trying to get a drinking spouse back to health. The motivational interviewing was making progress, and that kept me motivated to keep helping.

I saw her drinking as something that was trying to kill her and I completely committed to defeating that thing that was trying to kill her. It is the same approach I would take if a loved one had any other serious illness. I really saw her drinking as a life or death struggle, which it was - whether she realized that or not.

In hindsight, I gave up so much of myself and for myself to try to save her from her own decisions and actions.


In a lot of ways, my approach to her drinking was similar to taking on a protective and caring parental role when a child is unwell.

I can see though that being a protective and caring parent to an unwell child is quite different to taking on a similar role with an adult spouse who was continuing to drink, refusing to take responsibility for how their actions and decisions were hurting others, and refusing to accept the opportunity of professional treatment that was being offered to her.

After she relapsed, when I finally got her back into the office of an alcohol and addiction expert, she refused to talk about alcohol with them.

This 60 second Dr Drew video where he says "you are not responsible for being an alcoholic - you are responsible for your treatment" is absolutely right ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37evH0iJxkU

The same thing can be applied to a drinker who destroys their family life and relationship with their spouse by refusing to accept treatment.


Haha - it's not quite Mandarin to me ... kind of like I'm used to hearing a different dialect - I can understand some of the words, just not all of them yet

I am learning every day though !

Ariesagain

I've been thinking about the "motivational interviewing" you were doing and it may have done you both a disservice, albeit with the best of intentions. It made you her therapist and pseudo parent, instead of her facing up to her own recovery as an independent adult and it may have set you both up for her to rebel and relapse. It also fed your belief that you could fix her. Any bit of perceived progress you saw would have been incredibly reinforcing, which may be partly why you're having a hard time letting go now.

Maybe try each day to list three things to do to enjoy in the present when you start reliving the past?

We only get one precious life and it's time to reclaim yours.

Have a hug.

CocoLoco612

Thank you for sharing your story as it is my story too. I have spent many years with the same struggle. No one understands unless they have lived with it. I have been separated from my STBXAH for over a year. Just the other morning I realized I was able to sleep in on a Sunday morning because I didn't have one ear waiting to hear a "soda" can open. Yes, I can tell the difference between a beer can opening and a soda can. And I am sure I am not alone. It is a special talent only a few of us have mastered.

Back to topic... I am starting to let go of some of these feelings. I too struggle with PTSD. But I am getting better. It takes time, work and reminding myself that I can't protect him. I can't save him from himself.

Eventually, he started to leave and stay in a hotel when he would go on his drinking binge. The first time he went to a hotel, I called and called non stop. I went there, just to make sure he wasn't dead. I would wake up and immediately turn the news on to see if there was a report of a man being found dead in a Holiday Inn. After about the 10th time of leaving me to go to a hotel, it was like a mini vacation for me. I didn't have to see him fall. I wasn't going to be the one to find him. I could kind of relax.

Now here I am. We have been separated for over a year. During that year, he has been in two treatments facilities, two months in sober living, four days in the county hospital psych ward and now seven months of living "on his own terms".

I don't know what is going to happen to him. He might just slip and fall in the bathroom. He might just not wake up one day because his heart fails him. He might lose his job. He might finally get sober. I just don't know. I can't control it. I can't change it. It is just going to be what it is going to be.

I wish you strength. You are not alone.

MAYA1

I'm sorry what are you going through. I have felt like you do and what helped me was to separe from such a toxic person. What you don't see don't cause you stress. I remember being worried sick, scared, feeling extremely responsible financially, health wise, you name it. When it was all over and my ex moved out I fell sick for 2 weeks and could not get out of bed. It was like my body used all the energy up and just collapsed.

I hope you can figure out solution that works for you.

Eauchiche

Dear Time
In February, 2015 I moved back to my home town to be near my ex. I left a wonderful job and place to live in Northern California. At this time, I am still trying to figure out if I made a big mistake.
This was my thinking at that time:
1. The ex really wants to be together and misses me.
2. The ex might set the house on fire.
3. All the animals will need me if my ex crashes and burns.

I am on a track now that realizes the fallacious thinking I was enslaved to.

Like everyone else, I did the best I could at the time.

Eauchiche

Hey Maya!
I am recently starting to have those "switches" click inside my brain that you have described in other posts. I wonder if dealing with the ex is part of a package deal included in going no contact with abusive family members and sick friends.

timetohealguy

Hi Ariesagain,

Thanks for your reply ...

Yes that makes sense.

The biggest issue I was dealing with was that I was told by multiple doctors that unless something was done to try to stop her drinking, she would die.

The risks to her life which she was taking when she was drunk were absolutely extreme. There were multiple drinking incidents which she could have ended up dead as a result of - it wasn't just visits to the emergency room at the hospital to patch up minor drunken injuries.

In addition, she has a pre-existing medical condition for which drinking alcohol is about the worst thing a person could possibly do.

And in addition to that, she was on prescribed medication which alcohol should never be combined with. So there were many ways that alcohol could have potentially ended her life any time she drank.

On one occasion at the hospital it was touch and go if she would live or die. The doctors and nurses at the hospital managed to save her life. They said that had she not been at the hospital, she would have died that day.

I asked her if she understood that her drinking was creating a major risk to her life, and she said that she understood that ... yet she continued to drink.

It is hard for me to imagine someone being more in alcohol's grip than knowing that they are at risk of dying, but continuing to drink. It literally hijacked her brain, in the most profound way.

I thought that maybe I was over-reacting to the risks her drinking was posing to her, but when I spoke to one of the doctors who was treating her about my fears, the doctor told me that my fears were not only valid, but that unless she stopped drinking, she would die. They were sobering words to hear. I felt like the doctor was almost mentally preparing me for it. Doctors see death a lot - they develop a sense for when someone is at real risk of dying.

At that point, my only goal became to save her life.

She was absolutely not herself. I felt I had no alternative but to put my feelings, and any risk to our relationship created by my attempts to intervene aside, and just focus on doing whatever I could to try to save her life.

If she had died, there would be no relationship and no hope of a future with her anyway, so my feelings and any potential damage to our relationship caused by me stepping into an almost parental role and using the motivational interviewing techniques seemed grossly unimportant at the time and were the last thing I thought about. I just thought "life must come first".

Faced with the same situation again, there is almost nothing I would change in terms of what I did to try to get her to understand the deadly seriousness of her drinking.

My therapist and my ex's best friend have both told me that my actions over those months did save her life.

When someone is on a true path of destruction, everyone can see it. I simply refused to let alcohol take her life away from her, me and everyone else who loves her.

Someone had to step up and try to fight for her life against her drinking, and since she was in denial, and I was her spouse, I took that role on.

That is a big part of where my PTSD symptoms come from - I was trying to cope with a truly life threatening situation, for many many months at a time, with no control over her decisions to drink. I often felt like it was just a matter of time until I would receive the kind of phone call no one ever wants to receive about a loved one.

Even though she blames me now, refuses to have contact with me, and even if she doesn't accept that what I did saved her life, the fact that my therapist and my ex's best friend say that my actions saved her life tells me that I did the right thing.

If my ex and her family can't accept that truth, then that's their problem, and their denial. It's not my job now to try convince them of that truth that is so clear and so obvious.

Thanks for the hug

Yes my therapist has me making sure I do some things each day that I enjoy doing - a kind of self care routine.

It has all taken an enormous toll on me. I'm slowly getting better.