Expectations and defensiveness
 

Please share with the board how you handle expectations especially in romantic relationships and how you work with your own defensiveness, if that is an issue for you, as well.

I am dealing with my own inner demons of trying to determine what is a valid expectation and reasonable or what is just ME trying to satisfy my own ego or my own 'hole in my soul' through someone's behaviors, words, etc. In other words: I expected a response in a certain way to my own vulnerability and I didn't get what I wanted. I got something else and it's burning a hole in my peace and serenity right now. I have worked very hard at opening my heart again, at being vulnerable, etc and unfortunately I expect the same thing in return. I don't always get what I want nor do I always get what I need when I feel that i need it. I do get my needs met by my partner, just not always WHEN I want them met. I am a very demanding person in my own head, lol.

I have enough program in me to know that expectations are future resentments and I'm here to admit that: YES....they are! And, I can feel it building already. I work my program slogans, call my sponsor, and vent to my program friends when I need to. I was raised in an alcoholic home, married an alcoholic and I know now that I basically married my father. I can see that now looking back but old habits die hard.

My bf was asking me the other day why I get so defensive. Umm, because I HAD to. I was trained to. I was always on defense and my XAH was on offense trying to find every hole or break in my defensive line. We were always playing a game, a game that he had to win, he had to always be right, and I had to always be wrong and he was going to prove it. I hated it and now I find that I can't even handle simple comments that aren't even criticisms of me, they are simply observations or small talk and I immediately feel the hairs go up on the back of my neck and I have to talk myself down and say: that wasn't a criticism of YOU, girl, that was just him observing and making conversation. Some days I do better at grasping the whole picture and I can let it go, other days I engage in my defensive behaviors. It wasn't until I left my sick marriage that I was able to step back and truly see just how sick I had become. How those patterns developed over time. And, now, in my current relationship how they are becoming road blocks to my own happiness because I cling to those old habits. I am trying to create new pathways in my emotional responses but damn it's hard to reverse 45 years of damage and destruction.

I truly need to find some serenity today. I have a lot of change coming my way for my career, my son will be 18 in a few weeks and he's far from being prepared for the adult world, and I'm letting negative emotions affect how I feel about my boyfriend and our life together. So, if you have some serenity, please throw it down to Phoenix today!! I'll take whatever you all have to spare, lol!

I have been working on something very similar in my work for the last couple of months.

I FINALLY broke the pattern of getting defensive in a challenging relationship a couple of weeks ago. It felt amazing.

I was aware I was defensive for a long time. Finally about six weeks ago I realized in a therapy session that the "feeling" of being defensive for me is less about me "knowing" and "being" in my body and it is more about trying to make myself liked, respected and understood. That usually happens though with people who because of addiction or their own "stuff" are not capable of meeting me there. In other words it does not matter what I say or do they won't "get it."

I get that way in this one work relationship. I was having a 1:1 meeting with this woman who can trigger me. I triggered and I just said "okay," and ended the discussion. It was NOT me backing down, it was NOT backpedeling, it was acknowledging that I had the right to my own opinion and I needed to honor that and "discussing," it was not going to make a difference for her at all.

This whole recovery journey has been about honoring and trusting me.....regardless of what feedback from outside sources. I am starting to realize my defensiveness is a product of my co-dependent behaviors and lack of relationship with myself.

I have also found in the last number of weeks about who I feel this with often and who I don't......and that tells me a lot about my relationships in a way I did not have access to before.

I can't wait to hear other replies.

Liz.....I think it is a good idea to tell the other person what you need and when you need/want it. That cuts out a lot of guessing and anguish.
If it turn out that they feel that they can't or are unable or don't want to give it to you...then, this is their opportunity to tell you so.....

Expectations screw up more relationships than practically anything else. When I clearly saw the damage it was doing to my relationships, I started catching myself doing it. A very big boon to peace of mind! Being defensive isn't much a problem thanks to the 12 Steps.

Amen, yes they do!!!
I'm just trying to address my expectations so that I practice gratitude instead of ingratitude in my relationships more often. If I focus on what I'm not getting, how is that going to make for a better relationship in the long run?
I can ask for what I need, but sometimes my needs (like now because I'm PMSing) are over the top and I need to tone them down a bit. I can barely handle myself, how can I expect someone else to help me?

I want to learn how to let go of unreasonable expectations. I truly want to live in complete acceptance of what is, of what today has brought me, and to be grateful for all of it: the good the bad and the crazy!

As for defensiveness.....I'm a work in progress but i've been very honest with my guy about why I am the way I am and he validates what I have to say and tries to be patient with me.

Liz...how do you know that your "needs" are over the top and unreasonable?
Who makes that determination?

Can you give an example of such a need? (provided that you are comfortable doing so, of course).....

Hey, lizatola. Arrgh! Defensiveness, leave my head! The other day my spouse asked me not to refill the bird feeders close to the storage shed where we keep the seed because it could encourage mice. This was a perfectly reasonable request asked in a perfectly reasonable way and one, I must say, he has made before. I forgot. I could feel my defensive hackles rising at the implied criticism (it wasn't) and I was ready to launch. Then I realized how dopey that was, so I just said, "sure. I can do that." Why did I get so defensive? I'm not sure. Hate to lay it on the parent, but...my father was a persnickety kind of person. He had his own way of doing things, kinda OCD if I'm honest, and he used to criticize us if we didn't do things just so. I don't have a particular point to make. Just saying that I am familiar with defensiveness. Peace.

I find that I still get very sensitive or defensive when I have an unmet expectation related to something I thought I was "okay with", but deep down really wasn't.

I'd use your feelings to explore if there's something real there--you might be glossing over a need you have or an expectation that you WANT filled by your partner--which could be a valid desire that you're not able to get with him, so you tell yourself not to need it because things are good enough without it. If it's a deep enough need it will keep resurfacing and could be an issue later on.

What I have wondered at times/situations is this: How much of said request/demand is an actual need vs. an unrealistic expectation? -

And-Is it possible the two things overlap one another? Everyone has needs. Your boss needs you to do certain for your job, for example. Your partner wants to spend a certain amount of attention time with you. But at what point does a basic need turn into an unrealistic expectation? Or an expectation you are not feeling up to...

Honestly, I just have days that I want to be left alone and I want some peace and quiet. Not everyone understands that need and some of us seem to need that more than others, like my dad. He was that way. My mom almost the complete opposite.

I wonder that a lot, as well. Am I glossing over a need that I want filled? I think the problem is that I want my partner to respond like I would respond. I want him to behave as I would in certain situations or in response to something I asked or stated or whatever.

That's where the problem lies. I think the deeper issue for me is; control. I want to control someone else's response to help quell the anxiety I have because I need certainty. I want certainty. I want guarantees. That is part of MY disease. I wanted my spouse to quit drinking because, in my mind, that was a guarantee that we could finally all live happily ever after. I had a map all made out that went like this: If only my spouse would do this, then this would happen, and then everything would be well.

I know I still do this today in my relationship with my bf. Hence, the reason I still struggle with wanting him to behave a certain way. I work on acceptance since he seems to accept my shortcomings and character defects like it's no big deal, lol....but acceptance seems to come to me at a much slower rate.

As for the defensiveness, that is something I communicate about to my partner and to my close friends. I can, at least, logically work through that because I know that it's a mechanism I use to cope with stress or pressure or whatever. It's something I know how to work on. But, overcoming the problems I have with expectations is not as easy.

I think, that, on a forum, like this...we sometimes come to consider "expectations" a dirty word.
This is a forum that deals a l ot with alcoholism and living with alcoholics. since alcoholics are so u nable/wnwilling to be responsible and attend to the demands and obligations of relationships...folks are often told to lower expectations to avoid disappointments.
Of course...we all know that addiction and abuse are two things that turn usual relationship "rules" topsy turvy.

I think all relationships involve expectations....in both directions.
We have written or unspoken contracts in relationships....many more unspoken than written...lol...
I also, think that the unspoken expectations can get us into more trouble, also....

The fact that you know you're doing it is a big part of the solution! I considered myself very close to my brother until he got married. I resented the hell out of him and his wife for ten years because they didn't do what I thought they should. Then one day I said "screw it!", they can just be who they are, I don't care. I let go of my need for them to be other people. Almost magically, our relationship got so much better and they became the people I always wanted them to be, warm loving family.

With regards to what we expect from others, we have to get real; be real about it. Perhaps ask ourselves: What can I reasonably expect from this person? What are they truly capable of right now?

Amen to this!
And, i know what to expect from my bf. Sometimes that's part of the problem. He's boring and predictable. He's reliable and loyal and dependable. There's no drama. Sometimes there's too much silence. I know what he's capable of, he's been honest.

It's me who struggles. I want drama. I have an emptiness that needs to be filled. I know that I can't expect him to be something he's not.

hmmmmm. You've got me thinking.

So, it sounds like you could use a little more pizazz or excitement in your life? Or, perhaps a creative outlet. Change things up. Regardless of what he does, you can still have some drama, fun, excitement in your life. He'll either go along and join you or not. But you can still do something refreshing and enjoyable.

I think there's a difference between always wanting him to act in a way you'd like
( = controlling), vs having similar situations arise over time where you repeatedly wish he would react differently (= not compatible in this area).

I think this may be what Dandylion was getting at...that it's not bad to have expectations. Your wants may be completely reasonable, just maybe not from him. And if you want a relationship with him, then you'll need to ease your expectations here or be continually disappointed.

On the excitement topic, I get it!! Something I realized about myself after my first post-divorce relationship was that I didn't like the feeling of how it "settled in". What's next? I was kind of bored. I've learned that I thrive on spontaneity, even though I didn't realize it since usually it's my spontaneous friends suggesting things. When I've "settled in" and things get predictable, I struggle. That doesn't mean I'm codependent and awful, just that I'm wired to want more variety. I have that with my friends. When I've found myself saying "I should be happy with this because he's a good man and so good at X...", I know I'm not being true to myself. Not saying this is you! You sound very happy with things--just sharing my experience and continuing struggle in this area.

I know that feeling well. If you are like me, the thrill seeking, adrenaline addicted type of alanoid then I can share a few ideas.

What worked for me, when the drama was gone and I was left with that surplus of silence, was to _replace_ the drama with something equally exciting, but healthy.

Go parachuting, and then become an instructor.

Become a certified scuba diver.

Go to the gym and train for a 5K run that gives proceeds to charity, then train for a half marathon, then a full.

Become a wall climber.

Take martial arts classes and work your way up to a black belt.

Volunteer at the local women's shelter.

Go back to school and get a degree in something fun, like playing guitar, then start a band.

That "silence" that you hear is the world waiting for you to get out there and participate ;)

Mike :)

Liz.....I think that teatreeoil and praying and Desert Eyes...are saying the same type of thing that I was trying to say..

I seem to remember that security and stability have always been a major concern for you (understandably), given your situation.
so, I am going to spitball, a bit, here.
Is it possible that the security type things---stability, predictability, good economic solvency, loyalty and no fears of leaving or cheating, solid social status, etc., were a major attraction for you.
This, combined with the natural excitement and thrill and the planning of a romance in bloom...contributes to excitement in itself!
As daily life settles in...then other characteristics of our partner come into more clear focus.....we begin to notice other things....
Perhaps, it is that your natural, inborn temprament desires a certain amount of novelty and variety. Got to have it....lol....
If your bf happens to have a temperament that leans more to the introverted and thrives on more quiet , internal mechanisms....I can see where that would create a gap...
Based on this line of thinking....It seems like Desert Eyes's suggestions would be a good idea....
After all, we can't always get everything we need from another person...where there are deficits---we have to get our "fix" from other sources.
Now..I can see a potential "challenge" with this...If you have any co-dependency tendencies..and have tended to be very complient in adjusting to the other persons temprament...that person may have come to expect this "molding" of yourself to his zone of comfort.
If you raise your head and say.."I need more variety and excitement and I will be going on a sightseeing trip down the Congo with a survival team".....it might become necessary to make certain basic adjustments in the ebb and flow of the relationship.....
Relationships are an ongoing journey of making adjustments, as necessary to maintain the water table. Whenever one person makes a basic change, it requires a change in the other, to some extent in the "dance".

Like I said....I am just spitballing, here.......

What does your partner do for a living? That may have an impact on what he does at home...Maybe he does need more down time for that reason...just a thought...

I've always had a stressful, demanding as well as unpredictable job. So, I need to off-set that somehow. However, I also need creative outlets.

One thing I started doing in my late thirties was tapping into my music more. I started writing songs and demo'ing them before live audiences, which was risky, but wonderful too.

I took a flatpicking guitar workshop taught by a man who teaches is all over the the States and some overseas. He'd been at it for while. But he said I was his first female student! So, again I placed myself into a "spot" that challenged me, was exciting, new, but really challenged my BRAIN and guitar skills. When I met him he said, "I want you to sit in the front row so I can correct you when I need to." Okay...but for some reason that neither dettered me nor intimidated me. There were plenty of other students more advanced than I was and some not as. But overall it was a very positive experience. In a nutshell I got out of my comfort zone. My husband had little to do with this, but was supportive.

I think most codependents like drama. Rather maybe the cycle of "fixing". There is drama and conflict, it reaches a peak, problem is fixed, resting period until the next drama.

The "resting" period brings security that all is well because you made it.

We all bring our past into new relationships. Problem here is, your past is affecting your current. I can't speak for your BF, but that gets tiresome after a while. Its like when someone has been cheated on and is always on the look out in their new relationship. At first our partners are complicit in securing trust, but after a while it gets very old. It becomes a job to assuage our partner's insecurities.

As for defensiveness.....I'm a work in progress but i've been very honest with my guy about why I am the way I am and he validates what I have to say and tries to be patient with me.

How long do you think the "patience" will last?

And, i know what to expect from my bf. Sometimes that's part of the problem. He's boring and predictable. He's reliable and loyal and dependable. There's no drama. Sometimes there's too much silence. I know what he's capable of, he's been honest.

It's me who struggles. I want drama. I have an emptiness that needs to be filled. I know that I can't expect him to be something he's not.

I am going to assume what you don't want is bad drama, that you aren't really looking for an argument, certainly not looking for anything resembling your past marriage. So, I have to wonder. Is this relationship a match? Because using the term "boring" to describe your partner is kinda.....not a great description. Perhaps its just a matter of syntax......I am wondering how well you think the two of you coincide in interests, and in the way you relate to each other beyond your issues of being defensive? Are you feeling empty just because he is non responsive in the way you are? Or, are you feeling empty because of other reasons?

Sorry for delay, guys. Redatlanta....Very good questions... And, I should say that he himself, is NOT boring. The relationship is. We've settled into comfortable, going through the motions of work, life, kids, bills, aging parents, job stress, car problems, health issues.....YOU KNOW....LIFE.....unfortunately, I am craving romance, drama, girly crap still. We've been together for over a year and a half and I guess I figured I'd be happy settling in to what truly is an easy going normal suburban life.

I wonder if I just didn't sow my oats enough? And, that's really on me. Because when I tell my girlfriends about what my man does for me, how he treats me, what our life really looks like, they all respond with, "Wow, you've found a great guy!!" Not only is he a good man who treats me well, but his kids love me too and are always happy to see me and my son. They are welcoming and loving and they fill my heart with joy to the point where I sometimes cry.
And then, I sit there feeling empty....not all the time. LOL, when he pays attention to me, on my terms, well then I'm happy. Why? I know why....

Yes, I'm controlling(I am a freaking mess if you really look beneath my surface) but I don't ask him for more than what he's able to give because he's been honest with me about who he is, what his limits are within a relationship, what his needs are, what he truly desires in a partner and what he expects from me.

When I truly have a deep 'need' or desire for him to step up or comfort me or love me in some way, I tell him. I ask for what I need but I know that I often 'need' much more than any human is able to give me. And, again, that is on me. Our dance, so to speak, works for us today. No matter who I am with or who I enter into a relationship with, I believe that I will always want more from them even if they give everything they've got. That, again, is on me. For me to fix. For me to figure out how to let God in, to learn to love ALL of me and all of my inequities.

One thing I've learned is that I look inside myself before I ask my partner to meet a need (unless i'm completely hormonal and need a super big hug which he'll give me!)

lizatola....I sometimes think that you are soo willing to beat yourself excessively.....
I, also, wonder....(again, I am going to spitball)....if what you call "controlling", might be the need to have more of the things that most of us women love and need the most....expressions of intimacy, romance, and some really good (I mean good) horizontal tango, on a regular basis. To feel really special in the man/woman kind of way. That we are still adored and can set his heart and loins on fire....as well as all the nuanced stuff that surrounds this. (Desert Eyes might nab me for this).......

I remember that Steve Harvey has had several of his daytime shows devoted to this very thing. Typical story...pretty functional and devoted marriage..but, the wife confesses that the lack of the things that I mentioned above had become an area of deep longing and frustration for the wife. The husbands were solid as a rock...but, they were, also, as dense as a rock co ncerning these womanly needs. So--Steve Harvey begins an intense program of reality feedback for the husband and a program of "education" for them. His theory is that lots of men are clueless....but, they can be taught.

I have talked to enough women, and had my own experience, to know that this is common...and, it is very important in l ong standing relationships.
There is a lot of instructional material around for this area of human behavior.
The classic book...."The Joy of Sex" is surprisingly good...and yes, they have drawn pictures, too! There are tons of videos for instruction and enlightenment.
I think that it is a great area for couples therapy...because it is already focused on an issue..and one that is imminently easy to address and get great results...unlike some of the problems seen in couples therapy.......

I think that the suggestions that Desert Eyes made about incorporating some of your own activities that garner excitement, challenges, and novelty...like rodeo riding and hand gliding.....along with lots of horizontal tango, might address some of the needs.....

Now, Liz..I can already see you, explaining what a good man he is and how he meets all of your needs beautifully...and that you are just some kind of control freak with ravenous needs of reassurance.....
But, maybe, you could consider this stuff as, maybe, having some validity for about an hour or two, before tossing it aside......f

If you do think that I am barking up the wrong tree...oh, well....it didn't hurt to try.....

Liz.....I have added the following song, for you to listen to as an accompaniment of my above post.....

https://youtube.be/83QO5UZOA

What occurs to me is that sometimes even GREAT guys aren't right for us.

You couldn't ask for a kinder, more responsible guy than my first husband. Still, he turned out not to be a great fit for me. I know it feels positively UNGRATEFUL not to want to be married to him, but the fact is that I would not have been happy in that marriage over the long term.

Actually, that's a large part of the reason I decided to put dating/relationships on hiatus for a good, long time. I wanted to figure out what it is I DO want in a relationship. As it turns out, I think I'm one of those people better off/happier on my own. There are lots of people I'm very fond of (and even attracted to), but I can't see myself making all the necessary adjustments for something to "work." And I wouldn't feel right about expecting someone else to make their OWN adjustments to happily cohabitant with me.

Not to say that's where you're headed, but just to inject the (unfortunately) unsettling possibility that you might not be right for each other.

Dear Liz...if you couldn't get the song before....

try this one....
https://youtu.be/gLATx6j Hr6k

Liz.....what a mess, I have made, here! I have been trying to get a l ink for the song that I wanted you to listen to, to work.....trying for over one and one half hours. I can't remove the links that I already posted.

this is the only way that you can hear it.....
google: youtube Staple Singers "Lets Do It Again"......

The song says it all...lol.....

Sorry for the inconvenience....

Youtube links can be real complicated sometimes.

Try this link:

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...Do+It+Again%22

Mike :)

Desert Eyes.....thank you so much!!

thank you. I'll check it out when I get off work later.

I wanted to add a lot of stuff about the 'horizontal tango' lol, but that would get too messy for me to post. What's funny is that I've never felt more connected to a man during sex than I do to my man today. And, I mean, NEVER. So, that part of our relationship is not a problem. The man can rub his right toe up the arch of my left foot and we're signaling to each other that 'tonight's a go!' and I am turned on, lol. I can't say that every time is amazing and connected emotionally but about 75% of the time, I feel like he literally is trying to become one with me. With my ex and others before, I always felt like sex was just sex and that it was something used for their release or for physical connection. With my man today, I feel like sex is a part of our emotional connection, as well, and that means a LOT to me.

We actually have good flow and similar needs in this area. It's a HUGE part of what makes 'us' work.

Also, to add to what Mike said earlier. I looked back on all the experiences I've had with my man: 3 day backpacking trip a few months ago that was a wonderful bonding experience, sailing in San Francisco last year among other things, trips to Palm Springs, camping trips with the kids, kayaking over the summer often, boating with his family at the lake, cabin rentals and hiking excursions, and we just got back from a 4 day trip to CO to see the leaves changing and spend some time in the mountain air and relaxing together.

Throw in the fact that when we have weekends without his kids, he makes sure we do something special together. ALWAYS. Dinner's out, lighting a candle and putting on good music for us to sit and talk and have a glass of wine, taking day trips, or whatever. We enjoy each other's company and we actually make a great team around the house and when it comes to tag teaming the kids, as well.

We have separate interests, as well. He golfs, I play tennis. He lifts weights, I do yoga.

So, I really have to take a look at myself and see WTF my problem is. He was worried last year that I was jumping the gun and committing to him too early. He, himself, having been divorced for a few years knew where I was emotionally and what I most likely needed. He tried to push me towards understanding that I had options and that I might want to explore them before committing to him. But, I fell for him and I love him and now I am where I am because of me and my choices. He's not perfect and I'm not perfect. The question remains: are my needs too much for anybody or just for him and are my needs/wants extreme because I am selfishly looking for validation from outside myself and needing someone to meet needs that no one can truly meet for me? What is reasonable and what isn't 'for me'?
And, only I can answer that, huh?

lizatola...well, I guess that pretty much throws my horizontal tango theory out the window...lol.....
So, now, I will spitball in another direction...(nobody ever said that dandylion is not persistent)....

Let me ask...."Is he complaining about your "needs for validation".....
Could it possibly be that, from you past, your needs for validation, etc. were ignored by others. That when you needed nurturing and validation from the others...that you were walking on thin ice, where angels fear to tread. Weren't you usually rejected and criticized when you asked for your needs? Didn't it signal the potential of rocking the boat too much and losing the relationships?
I am just asking because, I get that impression, from following your threads for a number of years.....

Could it be that you are having fears that if you ask for too much---that it m ight be something that will cause him to loose interest and flee??
If that should be the case, for you.....I don't hear anything from your writings that suggests that he is feeling too put upon......

Could it be that having someone like him has put y ou a bit our of your normal "comfort zone" for the time being.....

I'm just asking......