LexieCat

No, I would NOT suggest having that kind of conversation with him. It might put you (and your kids) in significant danger. If he feels you are ready to leave him, that can actually be the most dangerous time.

Call the shelter. They might have a counselor they can hook you up with who will be able to work with you quietly, while he's at work and the kids are at school.

Incidentally, joint counseling (marriage counseling, mediation, anything along those lines) is NOT a good idea when there is abuse in the picture. It gives the abuser a forum to manipulate you, and information revealed in counseling may be used against you.

SeekingClarity1

LexieCat, you're right. He was probably just a passive aggressive abuser before. He was always very critical and jealous of my family and friends, and often accused me of cheating on him even though he had no reason at all to think I was. There were some red flags. And you're right that the alcoholism and abuse are two separate issues. That's what has become clear to me today. It's a devastating realization.

SeekingClarity1

LexieCat, good point about him using things against me if we go to counseling. He's already started using a lot of things I say against me--times I confided in him. So I can imagine it would get a lot worse if we laid everything out there in counseling.

I don't know what I'm going to do or say when he gets home. I wish I could just go away for a while to think about things. I just don't want to see him right now.

LexieCat

I'd suggest you read newbeginings16's thread here, from the beginning: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-one-talk.html

She was in a similar situation, not so long ago, and she has made incredible strides in breaking free to create a safe home for her and her family. Every situation is different, but she--and others--overcame the obstacles in their own minds that were keeping them in a dangerous situation.

Gonnachange

And if you or one of your children get hurt it could also change lives forever. Safety first and worry about the subsequent consequences later.

I rarely post on such matters because unlike other SR members who unfortunately have had similar experiences or someone like LexiCAt who is professionally trained I have nothing such as that to fall back on, but as a husband and father I know what I would advise my daughter (and my son for that matter) to do: Make sure you and the children are safe.

Stabilizer

Please go to a safe place with your children and begin the process from there with the support of close friends and the police if necessary. Use a mediator for discussions with him about anything until you have an exit strategy. I am a male and a recovering alcoholic and if I find your situation scary, then you must believe me that it is not safe for you to confront him alone or with the kids around.
Please be safe and keep posting how things are working out.

LexieCat

One suggestion would be to go with your kids to the shelter while you figure out what to do. The shelter isn't like a four-star hotel, but it will be safe and clean and reasonably comfortable. Plus you would have advocates and counselors readily available to help you through this. Lots of women have launched new lives from there.

amy55

You know we talk about passive-aggressive abusers. I don't think that means anything. It's somewhat along the line of the frog in the boiling water story.

Abuse starts very subtlety. You are not even aware of what is going on. You try as hard as you can to be able to communicate, but nothing you do or say means anything. The next step starts with the abuse. It is "upped" because you no longer feel that there is any danger in that. You begin to minimize the abuse that you are being exposed to.

I am so happy that you called the DV hotline. What I found that helped me the most, was to finally be able to talk about the abuse, and to find out that what I was dealing with was not "normal". I questioned myself plenty. I questioned my own sanity. Once I was able to talk to people, I no longer felt alone. I could also no longer ignore my situation. I spent 2 summers walking around wearing sunglasses.

I went to a DV shelter, albeit for only one night. Then I was getting the "promises", the "sweet talk", all the things that I was hoping for....... None of that ever panned out, and the abuse continued, and escalated.......... Why? He knew the old abuse wasn't working, so he needed to intensify it.

I need to say that the shelter may not have been a 4 or 5 star hotel, but it was even better then that. It meant I was safe. The place was clean. There were so many people there that I could talk to, so many people that were going through the same thing, and I didn't feel crazy any more, or like I was imagining things.

You took a gigantic step today, you really started to talk about things. Knowledge is power. I do hate to say that sometimes with this knowledge you do need to play dumb, until you have a plan in place.

Thank you for sharing your story.

(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))
amy

ladyscribbler

I actually got away with the help of my family, who lived in another state. The house belonged to him and we weren't married, so I didn't really stand to lose anything there. And there was no custody issue at that point.

Until you can make a plan, whatever that looks like for you, just play along and be nice. It doesn't guarantee anything, and it's not a long term solution, but it might make a blowup less likely if he thinks you're toeing the line. His behavior is about control and entitlement, not anger, so if he thinks you're under control he might calm down for awhile.

Because of your situation, I would be careful about just taking off with the kids and hiding unless you're in imminent danger or have consulted a lawyer about the legal ramifications of doing so. In the event that you need to leave in a hurry, I suggest having a "go bag" packed with a change of clothes and basic toiletries for you and the kids and all the important documents- SS cards, birth certs, etc. I kept mine in the trunk of my car. Maybe also a pair of shoes if you can spare them. I once ran out barefoot with our son in my arms and my car keys in my mouth. It was winter so that really sucked.

Also, don't be afraid to call for help if you're ever in another situation like before. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and the kids. Does he keep any firearms or other weapons in the home? That is something to keep in mind as you move forward with your safety planning. Take care. We are here for you.

firebolt

THis - this is a BIG part of what has kept so many of us in miserable situations with alcoholics for too long. They have so much potential. But, potential has a half life. And for me, in 5 years, XABF never lived up to his potential. Sure, he had moments where he was so great...but they got further and fewer between...let alone the awful person I was becoming.

We have to learn to see things for what they actually are, TODAY. We have to stop banking on our fantasy of the future of how someone else COULD BE.

You can. You ABSOLUTELY can. You said you have family a few hours away. What about friends? I bet you know someone that could take you and the kids, if even for a few days.

Sure, but he is not giving ANY indication that he is even close to wanting that, let alone being ready to do the hard work that is actual change.

(((HUGS)))

Please, please get out for a few days to give yourself some peace. Nothing says you have to be waiting for him when he gets home.

firebolt

Yikes - ok, or that. It seems like if you feel you are in danger, leaving would be a good idea, but Ladyscribbler knows way more about this than I do!

And yeah, calling the police after he threatens to not let you call the police, and for physical intimidation is OK!!

LexieCat

Well, if you're actually in IMMINENT danger, you leave--with the kids--if you can safely do so. If you contact the police right away and let them know what happened, you won't be charged with anything for taking the kids. The law makes allowances for emergencies. But it wouldn't be good to take the kids and not tell ANYONE in authority where you are for more than a day.

This is why working with an advocate at your local shelter can be so helpful. They know how things work, and can help you make a safe plan to leave.

One other thing--be VERY careful about the use of your computer to research safety options--and even to post here. Your browser keeps a history of the websites you've visited, so it may not be safe for you to use a computer he has access too (same for your phone unless he has no access to a password-protected phone). Libraries have free computers, so that might be a safer option.

SeekingClarity1

So here's my latest update....My husband and I barely spoke to each other last night. I had to go to a school meeting so I was gone for part of the night. He went to bed before me and then eventually came back downstairs, asked if I was going to bed soon, and gave me a long, silent hug. I just stood there. I felt disgusted by him but didn't know how to act around him. It's hard because I don't want him to know I'm thinking of leaving him, yet I'm a terrible actor and I can't pretend everything's fine when it isn't.

So I went to bed and barely slept all night. In the morning, I started thinking about how he's been putting all these supplements in a protein shake every morning because he trains for obstacle course races. The beginning of his outbursts a year ago coincides with when he started getting more serious about training and taking more supplements. I found two of them (creatine and whey protein) and looked them up online to see if aggression can be a side effect. There were conflicting opinions about creatine but when I looked up whey protein, there was a whole message board thread full of people complaining that it made them irrationally angry and irritable because of the extra protein. I found other sites saying the same thing too.

After the 3 older kids left for school, I tried to approach my husband about these sites. He became very defensive and haughty and basically laughed in my face when I asked him if he could just stop taking these supplements for a while to see if it made a difference. All I could say was, "Really? Wow." He apologized again for "losing his temper" yesterday and I said, "It really bothers me that you don't want to do everything possible to make sure nothing like that ever happens again." After a minute he said, "Fine, send me the articles and I'll read them."

Bizarrely, he then changed the subject to how I need to take more time for myself to destress. He offered to watch the kids sometime so I could do t hat. I wanted to scream, "What is wrong with you? You were about to hit me yesterday and you're saying I need to destress?!" But I kept my cool and didn't say much. I went to take a shower. While I was taking it, he left for work and then started sending me all these texts. Suddenly he was Mr. Nice Guy, saying he loved me and he would read the articles.

So later on, he responded to my e-mail about the supplements with kind of a strange, rambling e-mail questioning the sites and basically laughing them off. He said how he's lost all this weight lately and feels great, implying that's somehow related to the supplements. He said he gets frustrated with me sometimes but he is "rarely angry" (huh?). He added, "Again, I'm sorry I lost my temper. I'll do my best not to lose it next time."

I responded and said, "It wasn't just 'losing your temper.' It was more than that. This is a very serious issue for me." I said the weight loss and more energy and everything is because he has cut way back on drinking, he's eating better and he's exercising. I said I can't understand why he wouldn't just try stopping the supplements. Supplements in general are not regulated and are not well studied, so sometimes you just have anecdotal evidence of side effects.

I was very disappointed that he was so dismissive of the whole supplement issue. Maybe it's not the supplements causing the aggression. I'm sure it sounds like I'm grasping at straws and making excuses for him, and maybe I am. But since he wasn't physically aggressive like this for the first 15 years I knew him, I thought it might be worth a shot to explore this as a cause. And the way he is being so dismissive really hurts. His behavior lately, even this morning, just seems "off." I don't know how to describe it. He just still seems like a different person.

So after I sent the e-mail, I called the local domestic violence hotline that I was referred to yesterday. The woman took my number and they're going to set me up with an appointment with a counselor. Unfortunately, she said there is a bit of a waiting list and they might not call back until next week, although she told me to call back sooner if I need to. She said when I talk to the counselor they can also set me up with a case worker to talk about an exit strategy to get out of the relationship safely.

I'm going to be so tense all weekend being around my husband. At least he's going somewhere most of the day Saturday.

I'm trying really hard to not feel so overwhelmed by all this. Last night I was lying in bed trying to imagine what my life and my kids' lives will look like if/when we leave, how it would all work exactly. I started worrying about the logistics of everything. But I'm trying to repeat in my head that I just have to do this one step at a time. And all of your advice about how keeping my kids SAFE is the most important thing is replaying in my head every time I feel so guilty about the idea I might have to uproot them from everything they know right now. I keep telling myself that someday, when they're old enough to understand, they'll be glad we left.

LexieCat

Yeah, don't future-trip too much. There are lots of twists and turns, and you can't possibly anticipate and prepare for all of them.

Keep a couple of thoughts in the forefront of your mind. One, you are gathering information, help, and support at this time. Nothing final has been decided yet. You need to protect yourself and your kids, and you now have some resources to call upon, and can/will call the police if you are scared. Let the details go until you have more information. Two, you will be OK and your kids will be OK. Kids go through divorce/separation more often than not these days, and somehow most all of them manage to adjust--provided they have at least one sane parent dedicated to their well-being.

And yes, I think to believe the supplements are behind this is grasping at straws. You said even though he hadn't physically harmed you before that he has a history of controlling behavior. The physical aggression is a natural escalation of that. I see it all the time. The most horrific abuse case I ever handled involved a man who had a long history of controlling/abusive behavior but had never laid a hand on his wife until she tried to leave him. That was after 25 years of marriage. There was nothing "wrong" with him--no mental illness, not substance abuse at all. He was simply an abusive man.

Just keep your cool and keep things as normal as possible. You have to be careful not to tip your hand until you have a plan.

Ariesagain

Is he taking steroids?

SeekingClarity1

He isn't taking steroids that I know of. But he has become almost overly fixated on training for these obstacle course races, so who knows, maybe he's gone off the deep end with it and he is taking steroids. I sure hope not. In addition to the rages, he's become more anxious. One day a few months ago he suddenly became irationally obsessed with the idea that I was going to leave him (I hadn't said I would--he was just reading into random things). He was acting really weird, all agitated and pacing around and asking me the same questions over and over again.

The next day I mentioned how weird he had been acting and he said something about how he had been taking some kind of testosterone replacement (would that be something like steroids? I don't even know) and he was going to try stopping it because he had been feeling more agitated and anxious. I tried to bring that up this morning, about how he had complained about weird side effects from supplements before, but he acted like he had no idea what I was talking about.

LexieCat, that's terrifying about the man who suddenly became abusive after such a long marriage. Thanks for the reassurance about kids surviving divorce. My own parents are still married and I never thought I would get divorced myself. But there are much worse things in life, like being married to an abusive man.

LexieCat

It was only the PHYSICAL abuse that was sudden.

Yes, testosterone is a steroid, but I seriously doubt it's drugs that are causing his behavior. Your description of his historical controlling behavior sounds like a typical, entitled abuser. I really recommend that you read a book by Lundy Bancroft, "Why Does He DO That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men." For a lot of victims it's a real eye-opener. Lundy Bancroft is highly respected in the DV field.

SeekingClarity1

Wow. He just replied to my e-mail about the supplements. It was a long e-mail talking about how he's been trying to make all these changes in his life, he's trying to be less anxious and take charge of things--that he's acting different because he is different, and he made a "HUGE" mistake in trying to "fix" me yesterday when I was stressed out. He said I've been acting differently too.

Then came the kicker. The last paragraph: "Please stop trying to change me. Please don't hype up something that isn't worth hyping up. For the last time, I'm sorry I lost my temper. Let it go. I learned something. I'll let you be you. Please let me be me."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I'm speechless.

LexieCat

There ya go, let him be him. Much easier if you aren't around to endure the fallout of "him being him."

CoParentToA

Well. That's about as clear a message as you are going to get that this is someone who is not going to change. He sees no need and he is not in the least motivated to do so.

That's good clarity for you; no second guessing about how good a guy he could be if he changed. He won't!