Received Amends in a Text
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I understand where you are coming from. My RAH amends was a statement made to family at Christmas. It didn't sit well with me for quite a while. I am ok with it now because I see that he truly has remorse for things that happened. He truly amazes me at how hard he works his program. I am now at a place that I accept and prefer "living amends".
Last edited by Jaeger; 09-07-2016 at 08:11 AM. Reason: Spelling
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The thing is, dandy, only the person making the amends can judge its sincerity. And the guy who sent the text message may have the most sincere of regrets for what he did to these people. He didn't do anything particularly HELPFUL for them, which is what sort of seems to be missing here, but it might have been the best he could do at this point in his recovery. He jumped the gun, for sure.
But an apology, however inartfully expressed, is a start. I don't think one can assume he wasn't sincere. Even if he's made INSINCERE apologies in the past, you can't assume he didn't mean this one.
It doesn't mean he's done with his amends--if this is all he ever does, it won't get him too far. But it's a start. Maybe.
But an apology, however inartfully expressed, is a start. I don't think one can assume he wasn't sincere. Even if he's made INSINCERE apologies in the past, you can't assume he didn't mean this one.
It doesn't mean he's done with his amends--if this is all he ever does, it won't get him too far. But it's a start. Maybe.
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Dandy, can you really judge how much he "knows" that he has done harm? Do any of us really ever know the depth of harm done to another? And even with the most sincere of apologies, the person harmed has their own forgiving to do, whether or not they hear the correct words coming from another's mouth...because there is no right way to apologize. It's usually clumsy, messy and not quite enough from the side of the person harmed.
I have forgiven a lot of people who have never and will never apologize. It's not about them.
I have forgiven a lot of people who have never and will never apologize. It's not about them.
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lexie....I am not talking specifically about THIS particular person....
I am talking about my trying to understand the amends thing...in general....
When a person makes an amend....does a sincere heart count? (even if it is the best they can do at the time...and, only they can know their true heart)...
Should they actually CARE about what the other person suffered at their hands...?
Isn't that compassion?
I understand the part about making an amend to relieve the guilt feeing and to possibly get back the good will of the victims...to earn back their trust, respect, etc. That has all got to be good for the alcoholic.
But, should that be all that is considered by the alcoholic.....
Is there any place for them to CARE about the feellings and humanity of the victim....?
Personally, as a victim (of anything)....I find it very hard to accept an apology from someone if I don't, at least, sense some degree of sorrow, in their apology, that they actually did hurt me......
I realize that I am having a hard time precisely identifying what I mean....
I am talking about my trying to understand the amends thing...in general....
When a person makes an amend....does a sincere heart count? (even if it is the best they can do at the time...and, only they can know their true heart)...
Should they actually CARE about what the other person suffered at their hands...?
Isn't that compassion?
I understand the part about making an amend to relieve the guilt feeing and to possibly get back the good will of the victims...to earn back their trust, respect, etc. That has all got to be good for the alcoholic.
But, should that be all that is considered by the alcoholic.....
Is there any place for them to CARE about the feellings and humanity of the victim....?
Personally, as a victim (of anything)....I find it very hard to accept an apology from someone if I don't, at least, sense some degree of sorrow, in their apology, that they actually did hurt me......
I realize that I am having a hard time precisely identifying what I mean....
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I think you're asking for an insight that isn't really possible, Dandy.
Like many AAisms, that phrase, "Amends are for the alcoholic," is a winding path. Of course it's for the alcoholic, it's also for the victims - and I'm certain that on some level the alcoholic understands that. How each person views it is their business. Just like the person making amends cannot control how the victim takes it, so the victim cannot control how the person making the amends does it nor if it is totally understood by the alcoholic.
It's one of those spiritual things that only makes sense if it's taken to God for the answer. . . and none of us can overhear that conversation between God and another person.
Like many AAisms, that phrase, "Amends are for the alcoholic," is a winding path. Of course it's for the alcoholic, it's also for the victims - and I'm certain that on some level the alcoholic understands that. How each person views it is their business. Just like the person making amends cannot control how the victim takes it, so the victim cannot control how the person making the amends does it nor if it is totally understood by the alcoholic.
It's one of those spiritual things that only makes sense if it's taken to God for the answer. . . and none of us can overhear that conversation between God and another person.
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Originally Posted by dandylion 
tomsteve....I have tried so hard to understand this....
tell me this----am I right or wrong that sincerity is supposed to be at the HEART of the one making the amends? In my l ittle mind...I keep thinking that it should be...?
In my little mind...I keep thinking that none of it means anything if there is not a deep sincerity and understanding of the harm they have done to the victim....
tell me this----am I right or wrong that sincerity is supposed to be at the HEART of the one making the amends? In my l ittle mind...I keep thinking that it should be...?
In my little mind...I keep thinking that none of it means anything if there is not a deep sincerity and understanding of the harm they have done to the victim....
must be sincere.
without it, welp....for me,that would be acting like i did when drinking- selfish, self centered, and not really giving a crap.
plus what lexie said- its not up to the person to determine if i was sincere or not.
THAT is where sweeping off my side of the street come in to play- i can only make amends. its not up to me if the other person doesnt think if i was sincere. my side of the street is clean.
its not about earning respect or trust. that comes with action.
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biminiblue...yes, I have many times, over the years, said that "I frorgive you,,for you know not what you do,"
That is not what I am talking about, however....
I still don't get the part where the alcoholic is told to make amends because it is all about them....and nothing to do with the victim. That just doesn't look like personal growth for the alcoholic...or any person, for that matter...?!
Should we not strive to care about ourselves and our fellow beings the same?
Personally, I cannot remember apologizing to someone else unless I truly and deeply felt sorrow for the pain that I caused THEM....
If I felt otherwise, I might have just kept the apology to myself.....
(In other words.."I forgive myself for what I did to you....and if you suffered...screw you."......"my apology to you is about me". "nothing more".
That is not what I am talking about, however....
I still don't get the part where the alcoholic is told to make amends because it is all about them....and nothing to do with the victim. That just doesn't look like personal growth for the alcoholic...or any person, for that matter...?!
Should we not strive to care about ourselves and our fellow beings the same?
Personally, I cannot remember apologizing to someone else unless I truly and deeply felt sorrow for the pain that I caused THEM....
If I felt otherwise, I might have just kept the apology to myself.....
(In other words.."I forgive myself for what I did to you....and if you suffered...screw you."......"my apology to you is about me". "nothing more".
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heres a lil from the bb
A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.
There may be some wrongs we can never fully right. We don't worry about them if we can honestly say to ourselves that we would right them if we could.
A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.
There may be some wrongs we can never fully right. We don't worry about them if we can honestly say to ourselves that we would right them if we could.
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Dandy, all apologies at the most basic level are about the person making the apology.
No one is forced to apologize. So if they do it, on some level they are admitting they were wrong. That's huge for many people, and can open them spiritually.
If they've gone through the previous 7 steps, it is very clear they have to make amends if they are to find any inner peace.
Obviously many alcoholics are going to apologize in order to obtain some benefit to themselves that is outside the spiritual part of it. They may want to keep a marriage, a job, a friendship, a family relationship. Just making that declaration of, "I was wrong," is huge for some people and will lead to better things - but it isn't always immediate or apparent to those observing.
No one is forced to apologize. So if they do it, on some level they are admitting they were wrong. That's huge for many people, and can open them spiritually.
If they've gone through the previous 7 steps, it is very clear they have to make amends if they are to find any inner peace.
Obviously many alcoholics are going to apologize in order to obtain some benefit to themselves that is outside the spiritual part of it. They may want to keep a marriage, a job, a friendship, a family relationship. Just making that declaration of, "I was wrong," is huge for some people and will lead to better things - but it isn't always immediate or apparent to those observing.
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Dandy, have you ever READ the Big Book on amends? Or the 12 and 12 (which is a less authoritative discussion)?
The Big Book's discussion of Step Eight (where you make the list) begins on page 76, in the chapter "Into Action," and the discussion of Step Nine (the actual amends) immediately follows. You can read it here: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt6.pdf.
Here's a link to the 12 and 12 online--read the discussion of Steps Eight and Nine: Alcoholics Anonymous : Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
The Big Book's discussion of Step Eight (where you make the list) begins on page 76, in the chapter "Into Action," and the discussion of Step Nine (the actual amends) immediately follows. You can read it here: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt6.pdf.
Here's a link to the 12 and 12 online--read the discussion of Steps Eight and Nine: Alcoholics Anonymous : Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
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bimini...I honestly do hear what you are saying....
tomsteve...thank you...you have helped me about 50 percent there....
You are the first person from the AA side say the words that the victim DOES matter.....that the alcoholic should, at least, strive to be sincere (to the best of their ability)....
I think that I am seeing this from the victim side, a lot. I just cannot bring myself to say "I accept your apology"....if I don't feel that it is sincere....
If a person has deeply hurt me...I cannot feel safe enough with them to render myself open and trusting and vulnerable in the relationship with them, again--
I guess that is where I come in...because I can sense or get a feeling if it is with sincere regret or just something to make themselves, only, to feel good....
Now, as I said to bimini...I may forgive them (for they know not what they do)....but, the relationship will never be the same..or, may be over, forever....
For me, this is especially important in family relationships...for those are u sually the ones that we take to the grave....
tomsteve...thank you...you have helped me about 50 percent there....
You are the first person from the AA side say the words that the victim DOES matter.....that the alcoholic should, at least, strive to be sincere (to the best of their ability)....
I think that I am seeing this from the victim side, a lot. I just cannot bring myself to say "I accept your apology"....if I don't feel that it is sincere....
If a person has deeply hurt me...I cannot feel safe enough with them to render myself open and trusting and vulnerable in the relationship with them, again--
I guess that is where I come in...because I can sense or get a feeling if it is with sincere regret or just something to make themselves, only, to feel good....
Now, as I said to bimini...I may forgive them (for they know not what they do)....but, the relationship will never be the same..or, may be over, forever....
For me, this is especially important in family relationships...for those are u sually the ones that we take to the grave....
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Plus there's always going to be a significant difference in the "memory" of what is being apologized for, right?
When I've been wronged & I think back to that moment, I feel the emotions of my anger or humiliation.... I don't just remember the words or the actions. When the person apologizing remembers it, they aren't having that same biological reaction feeding into it. They aren't ever going to feel what I felt, especially if they'd been operating under a fuzzy haze from alcohol or drugs numbing it all away. Those emotions color my expectations of the apology.
I've never taken the "amends being about the alcoholic" part to be a selfish act - I mean, let's face it - Codies are as hard to deal with sometimes as the addicts, right? How many codies can you name that can't ACCEPT an apology or do it gracefully? Most codies I know want to rehash it over & over & over.... and not in a way that you can gain understanding from, more of a "beating you over the head with the very horse you killed until you cry Uncle" sort of way.
For me, "it's about the alcoholic" means that they can't control the reactions that they get from others. Maybe some people don't forgive them - but that can't stop them from working their recovery.
But, like I said above, all the talking in the world can't make someone understand *my* experience. Just like I'll never truly understand how/why they could hurt me that way to begin with....
Honestly, the most heartfelt amends I've ever received have been when those same people have experienced something similar, sometimes many years later - once they have direct experience with it, it changes their perspective & allows them to feel compassion/empathy differently.
When I've been wronged & I think back to that moment, I feel the emotions of my anger or humiliation.... I don't just remember the words or the actions. When the person apologizing remembers it, they aren't having that same biological reaction feeding into it. They aren't ever going to feel what I felt, especially if they'd been operating under a fuzzy haze from alcohol or drugs numbing it all away. Those emotions color my expectations of the apology.
I've never taken the "amends being about the alcoholic" part to be a selfish act - I mean, let's face it - Codies are as hard to deal with sometimes as the addicts, right? How many codies can you name that can't ACCEPT an apology or do it gracefully? Most codies I know want to rehash it over & over & over.... and not in a way that you can gain understanding from, more of a "beating you over the head with the very horse you killed until you cry Uncle" sort of way.
For me, "it's about the alcoholic" means that they can't control the reactions that they get from others. Maybe some people don't forgive them - but that can't stop them from working their recovery.
But, like I said above, all the talking in the world can't make someone understand *my* experience. Just like I'll never truly understand how/why they could hurt me that way to begin with....
Honestly, the most heartfelt amends I've ever received have been when those same people have experienced something similar, sometimes many years later - once they have direct experience with it, it changes their perspective & allows them to feel compassion/empathy differently.
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Lexie....honestly, I have only read the twelve steps....and have read some passages of the BB...but, never read it through...not n the way an alcoholic would be advised to do.....
But, as many times as I have tried to grapple with this concept...tomsteve is the only person I have ever heard actually say that the victim should matter to the alcoholic.....that sincerity (at some level) IS important.....
But, as many times as I have tried to grapple with this concept...tomsteve is the only person I have ever heard actually say that the victim should matter to the alcoholic.....that sincerity (at some level) IS important.....
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Originally Posted by dandylion
bimini...I honestly do hear what you are saying....
tomsteve...thank you...you have helped me about 50 percent there....
You are the first person from the AA side say the words that the victim DOES matter.....that the alcoholic should, at least, strive to be sincere (to the best of their ability)....
I think that I am seeing this from the victim side, a lot. I just cannot bring myself to say "I accept your apology"....if I don't feel that it is sincere....
If a person has deeply hurt me...I cannot feel safe enough with them to render myself open and trusting and vulnerable in the relationship with them, again--
I guess that is where I come in...because I can sense or get a feeling if it is with sincere regret or just something to make themselves, only, to feel good....
Now, as I said to bimini...I may forgive them (for they know not what they do)....but, the relationship will never be the same..or, may be over, forever....
For me, this is especially important in family relationships...for those are u sually the ones that we take to the grave....
tomsteve...thank you...you have helped me about 50 percent there....
You are the first person from the AA side say the words that the victim DOES matter.....that the alcoholic should, at least, strive to be sincere (to the best of their ability)....
I think that I am seeing this from the victim side, a lot. I just cannot bring myself to say "I accept your apology"....if I don't feel that it is sincere....
If a person has deeply hurt me...I cannot feel safe enough with them to render myself open and trusting and vulnerable in the relationship with them, again--
I guess that is where I come in...because I can sense or get a feeling if it is with sincere regret or just something to make themselves, only, to feel good....
Now, as I said to bimini...I may forgive them (for they know not what they do)....but, the relationship will never be the same..or, may be over, forever....
For me, this is especially important in family relationships...for those are u sually the ones that we take to the grave....
Fool me twice and all that.
The forgiving is for me. . .but I know you know that.
...and I said the same thing TomSteve did...in the post just before his. I think those of us who are double winners see this maybe a bit differently.
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The emotion, though, is kind of beside the point. The point is to try to make right a specific wrong that was done. I think THAT is the sincerity that matters in recovery. That you have a sincere desire to clean your side of the street. You don't have to empathize with the other person to make a good amends. It might be necessary if you want to rebuild a relationship with that person--most relationships that are healthy require empathy on both sides--but it isn't essential to recovery.
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Originally Posted by dandylion
If a person has deeply hurt me...I cannot feel safe enough with them to render myself open and trusting and vulnerable in the relationship with them, again--
One thought - accepting an apology does not automatically imply rebuilt trust or make me want to expose my vulnerabilities with that person. They are separate to me -- future behaviors build future trust, apologies only deal with the past. Apologies are about closing doors, not opening them.
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bimini...I went back and re-read you post....And YES! You did say "it is also for the victims"......
I am comforted to hear that.....
It just seems that every time a discussion of amends happens...it seems so hard for anyone to admit that victims are a part of the equasion, also.....
Thanks....
I am comforted to hear that.....
It just seems that every time a discussion of amends happens...it seems so hard for anyone to admit that victims are a part of the equasion, also.....
Thanks....
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Yes, Firesprite....I guess I am thinking about important relationships...for the most part. That is where the damage goes the deepest....
thanks for your perspective on this....
And, thanks to Lexie and bimini and anyone else who can bring some clarity that sincerity does matter.....
It may seems silly to some, but I have struggled with this for years.....
I have always felt that I was not very evolved in this arena.....
I have always thought that a true meeting of the hearts is a spiritual experience that requires sincerity and love of the two people involved.....
thanks for your perspective on this....
And, thanks to Lexie and bimini and anyone else who can bring some clarity that sincerity does matter.....
It may seems silly to some, but I have struggled with this for years.....
I have always felt that I was not very evolved in this arena.....
I have always thought that a true meeting of the hearts is a spiritual experience that requires sincerity and love of the two people involved.....
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