OT- Kids Traveling to XAH
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OT- Kids Traveling to XAH
This is slightly off topic--background--I'm divorced 3.5 years from XAH who lives 1500 miles away with his affair wife and her son who bullied our son (DS14) in school while they were secretly dating (both as employees of the school).
XAH was scary near the end of our 18-yr marriage, emotionally and verbally abusive to the boys, has never apologized for his behavior or disappearance. However, he now claims to be clean and found God, expecting the boys to just accept and move on without addressing the past.
A year post divorce I renegotiated our custody since the kids didn't want to go see him (and I wasn't comfortable with it anyway since he was high and unemployed). I gave up some future child support (that I figured I may not see anyway) for him to be able to see them only in their hometown unless both children "request of both Mother and Father to visit Father in his hometown".
XAH just sent an email that he talked to DS16 who said he verified the dates with me, so XAH booked tickets for a 6-day trip (the parenting plan only allows for 5) for them to go to his house over Christmas break.
DS16 won't talk about it and says "whatever". DS14 is outraged that he wasn't asked ahead of time, and said he won't go.
I'm struggling with the right thing to do.
Benefit of the doubt--if he's trying...should I support it? He's their father after all. I don't want to prevent them developing whatever sort of relationship with him. And every kid wishes their dad would care. But...why not have a call with both kids to iron it out? Why not email me and ask me to discuss it with them? Why make them feel bullied with tickets already purchased? There's a million ways he could help himself here.
Cynical view--he's doing it all on his terms as usual, tossing aside their feelings and the parenting plan structure. Or, hoping I'll say no because of the violations and make it "my fault" that he doesn't see them.
Things have been quiet with him. I don't feel the need to cause a fight.
But I'm feeling that he needs to do this differently to respect their feelings and listen. DS14 doesn't want to go. I feel like that's legitimate.
I'm letting it sit a day or two, but I'm thinking of emailing him a reminder that the parenting plan says both boys need to tell us both they want to go, and I'm not hearing that--and offer a call with all four of us to discuss. (Ignore the 6 day thing.) Is that too much pressure on the kids? He's very good at invalidating feelings and making them feel like crap.
Just curious your thoughts. It's been 2.5 years since I've spoken to him about anything meaningful, and almost 2 years since we negotiated anything via email either. I may be "forgetting" how toxic he is or be too willing to believe he's a better person. A couple of years ago I'd die before sending my babies there.
They went last year for three days over Thanksgiving and survived. He came to town once this year for four days (and saw them one day, bailing on them the other three).
Just a friendly reminder to think long and hard before procreating with anyone, particularly an abusive narcissistic addict!!
XAH was scary near the end of our 18-yr marriage, emotionally and verbally abusive to the boys, has never apologized for his behavior or disappearance. However, he now claims to be clean and found God, expecting the boys to just accept and move on without addressing the past.
A year post divorce I renegotiated our custody since the kids didn't want to go see him (and I wasn't comfortable with it anyway since he was high and unemployed). I gave up some future child support (that I figured I may not see anyway) for him to be able to see them only in their hometown unless both children "request of both Mother and Father to visit Father in his hometown".
XAH just sent an email that he talked to DS16 who said he verified the dates with me, so XAH booked tickets for a 6-day trip (the parenting plan only allows for 5) for them to go to his house over Christmas break.
DS16 won't talk about it and says "whatever". DS14 is outraged that he wasn't asked ahead of time, and said he won't go.
I'm struggling with the right thing to do.
Benefit of the doubt--if he's trying...should I support it? He's their father after all. I don't want to prevent them developing whatever sort of relationship with him. And every kid wishes their dad would care. But...why not have a call with both kids to iron it out? Why not email me and ask me to discuss it with them? Why make them feel bullied with tickets already purchased? There's a million ways he could help himself here.
Cynical view--he's doing it all on his terms as usual, tossing aside their feelings and the parenting plan structure. Or, hoping I'll say no because of the violations and make it "my fault" that he doesn't see them.
Things have been quiet with him. I don't feel the need to cause a fight.
But I'm feeling that he needs to do this differently to respect their feelings and listen. DS14 doesn't want to go. I feel like that's legitimate.
I'm letting it sit a day or two, but I'm thinking of emailing him a reminder that the parenting plan says both boys need to tell us both they want to go, and I'm not hearing that--and offer a call with all four of us to discuss. (Ignore the 6 day thing.) Is that too much pressure on the kids? He's very good at invalidating feelings and making them feel like crap.
Just curious your thoughts. It's been 2.5 years since I've spoken to him about anything meaningful, and almost 2 years since we negotiated anything via email either. I may be "forgetting" how toxic he is or be too willing to believe he's a better person. A couple of years ago I'd die before sending my babies there.
They went last year for three days over Thanksgiving and survived. He came to town once this year for four days (and saw them one day, bailing on them the other three).
Just a friendly reminder to think long and hard before procreating with anyone, particularly an abusive narcissistic addict!!
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My immediate, knee-jerk reaction is to focus on DS's feelings & not worry about the 6-day thing right now.
My *personal* view is that when my child expresses a need & is doing so respectfully, within her "rights", then it is my job to back her up as her Guardian. To me, she's trying to navigate the situation & needs me to advocate for her while giving her the room to make her own decisions - my involvement is simply to provide a stop-gap - a safe zone - for her to lean on while she expresses her opinions & feelings & to make sure that she's being Heard.
If she was doing it simply to hurt my ex in retaliation, we'd start down an entirely different road of conversations.
It sounds really legitimate to me considering their history - it's unreasonable to expect the kid to just jump up & run off giggling like a preschooler. Have you tried talking to both boys together, at the same time? Does hearing his younger brother's opinions help DS16 to open up more?
My *personal* view is that when my child expresses a need & is doing so respectfully, within her "rights", then it is my job to back her up as her Guardian. To me, she's trying to navigate the situation & needs me to advocate for her while giving her the room to make her own decisions - my involvement is simply to provide a stop-gap - a safe zone - for her to lean on while she expresses her opinions & feelings & to make sure that she's being Heard.
If she was doing it simply to hurt my ex in retaliation, we'd start down an entirely different road of conversations.
It sounds really legitimate to me considering their history - it's unreasonable to expect the kid to just jump up & run off giggling like a preschooler. Have you tried talking to both boys together, at the same time? Does hearing his younger brother's opinions help DS16 to open up more?
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So - to recap, the yonger one does not want to go, and DS16 keeps mum about whether he wants to go or not?
Since you had to renegotiate custody - ALL changes should be agreed with you first, IMO. It is my kosher to get kids involved, he needs to follow the rules as written, to a T. I have learned from experience, and have a 0 tolerance for breaking visitation rules now.
Just sit them both down and discuss - if they say no - too bad, XAH just wasted money on airfare, he will know to run it by you beforehand. If they say yes - still have a talk with XAH regarding how this needs to be handled in the future
I feel like every time I give a little bit of leeway - my hand is getting Bing chopped off in its entirety. So not more
P.S - XAH did the same thing as yours - bailed on one of the days a couple of weeks ago. I now require a schedule of activities/events with appropriate supervision to be e-mailed to me. If he does not e-mail it to me by the end of the day today - no visit. If he does not stick to it - it will be documented. I have no pity for him or his slacker ways
Since you had to renegotiate custody - ALL changes should be agreed with you first, IMO. It is my kosher to get kids involved, he needs to follow the rules as written, to a T. I have learned from experience, and have a 0 tolerance for breaking visitation rules now.
Just sit them both down and discuss - if they say no - too bad, XAH just wasted money on airfare, he will know to run it by you beforehand. If they say yes - still have a talk with XAH regarding how this needs to be handled in the future
I feel like every time I give a little bit of leeway - my hand is getting Bing chopped off in its entirety. So not more
P.S - XAH did the same thing as yours - bailed on one of the days a couple of weeks ago. I now require a schedule of activities/events with appropriate supervision to be e-mailed to me. If he does not e-mail it to me by the end of the day today - no visit. If he does not stick to it - it will be documented. I have no pity for him or his slacker ways
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I think you really need to focus on what your sons want. A lot of stuff was forced on me as a child and teen, and here I am, middle-aged, and still feel things are forced on me, and I can't stand up for myself, ever. I'm currently in therapy for this very issue.
Talk to your sons at length, before a phone call to their father. Tell them both that it's okay to say "no", and you'll back them up on it.
Is it possible that your X could come to your town for that same visit, and stay in a hotel?
You know, it's the X's fault if he booked the tickets prematurely, without following the parenting plan. My AH does stuff all the time trying to push the limits just a little further. They don't think rules really apply to them.
Your "cynical view" is probably the most accurate. I don't think he's really trying. I think he's still trying to call the shots. He's a big boy, and he knows the rules. He just doesn't want to be subjected to them. That's my opinion.
Good luck with this.
Talk to your sons at length, before a phone call to their father. Tell them both that it's okay to say "no", and you'll back them up on it.
Is it possible that your X could come to your town for that same visit, and stay in a hotel?
You know, it's the X's fault if he booked the tickets prematurely, without following the parenting plan. My AH does stuff all the time trying to push the limits just a little further. They don't think rules really apply to them.
Your "cynical view" is probably the most accurate. I don't think he's really trying. I think he's still trying to call the shots. He's a big boy, and he knows the rules. He just doesn't want to be subjected to them. That's my opinion.
Good luck with this.
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I'm wondering if maybe your ex promised to buy DS16 a car or something in exchange for the visit, assuming that if the older one was going it would be enough to get DS14 on board. That might be why he's clamming up. He knows there's some trickery afoot, but doesn't want to blow his chance at getting a car (or whatever, but since he's 16 that's the first thing that comes to my mind).
I agree with other posters that an honest, open talk with both boys is a good plan. Your ex is clearly trying to fudge the custody order for whatever reason, and is trying to put you in the position of being "the bad guy" for future blameshifting purposes.
I agree with other posters that an honest, open talk with both boys is a good plan. Your ex is clearly trying to fudge the custody order for whatever reason, and is trying to put you in the position of being "the bad guy" for future blameshifting purposes.
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Thanks for all of your perspectives. I think I definitely need to clarify how XAH should do things in the future regardless of the outcome. (Sigh)
Both sons have a history of fear surrounding confrontations with him. We all three suffered PTSD coming out of things, and DS14 has struggled to feel control over his life. That's part of why I renegotiated to give them some control over their relationship with XAH, so they'd feel empowered. However, I'm surprised at how anxious I still get at the thought of engaging with him...I guess if I feel that, it's probably even stronger for them.
Part of DS14's issue is his father choosing his stepson first--and expecting him to "hang out with" the kid who severely bullied him when we still lived out west. Once XAH hooked up with the kids' mother, he stopped supporting DS14 in this regard. And he's buddy-buddy with the bully. DS14 begged him to come talk one on one a few years ago, and XAH never did.
DS16's coping mechanism is to shut down related to anything with his dad--and when I push conversations he eventually says--"mom, if I ever WANT to see him, I'll tell you something has changed. Until then, it hasn't." But he's sort of afraid to discuss things too. I talked to him today and I swear he still just blanks out in regards to his dad's discussions. Maybe lingering PTSD. I think he hopes his brother will do the hard work. He said he'll do whatever DS14 does.
XAH's family lives in my hometown- part of why I moved back here with the boys was because our friends and his family were all here. The holiday assumption was that X would come see his family on either Xmas or TDay each year, and he could see the boys then with extended family in a safe environment. Didn't realize X would have no interest in sharing holidays with his parents, lol.
I'm going to regroup both boys together tonight.
Both sons have a history of fear surrounding confrontations with him. We all three suffered PTSD coming out of things, and DS14 has struggled to feel control over his life. That's part of why I renegotiated to give them some control over their relationship with XAH, so they'd feel empowered. However, I'm surprised at how anxious I still get at the thought of engaging with him...I guess if I feel that, it's probably even stronger for them.
Part of DS14's issue is his father choosing his stepson first--and expecting him to "hang out with" the kid who severely bullied him when we still lived out west. Once XAH hooked up with the kids' mother, he stopped supporting DS14 in this regard. And he's buddy-buddy with the bully. DS14 begged him to come talk one on one a few years ago, and XAH never did.
DS16's coping mechanism is to shut down related to anything with his dad--and when I push conversations he eventually says--"mom, if I ever WANT to see him, I'll tell you something has changed. Until then, it hasn't." But he's sort of afraid to discuss things too. I talked to him today and I swear he still just blanks out in regards to his dad's discussions. Maybe lingering PTSD. I think he hopes his brother will do the hard work. He said he'll do whatever DS14 does.
XAH's family lives in my hometown- part of why I moved back here with the boys was because our friends and his family were all here. The holiday assumption was that X would come see his family on either Xmas or TDay each year, and he could see the boys then with extended family in a safe environment. Didn't realize X would have no interest in sharing holidays with his parents, lol.
I'm going to regroup both boys together tonight.
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Personally, I think you can't go wrong by simply sticking to the letter of the parenting plan. Both kids have NOT requested to go visit Dad there, so it isn't happening. Period. All you have to say is that he's welcome to visit with them here, but your younger son has plans that don't include a visit there. You don't have to elaborate on those plans--the thing is, he hasn't ASKED to go visit dad there, which was part of the deal.
When you talk to the kids, I'd suggest you lay that out as their "out" if they truly don't want to go. And I'm with you, that there should be ZERO pressure on them to do that.
When you talk to the kids, I'd suggest you lay that out as their "out" if they truly don't want to go. And I'm with you, that there should be ZERO pressure on them to do that.
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Praying, it's tough stuff. I don't really have any advice, just feelings on what I think I'd be inclined to do if AXH did similar with DS, which falls in line with what Lexie posted this afternoon.
In case it might help with your teens, I've found, as he gets older, sitting side by side with DS, rather than facing him -- or working together side by side on something (like washing dishes or even when driving) -- helps him relax and he seems a bit more inclined to talk.
In case it might help with your teens, I've found, as he gets older, sitting side by side with DS, rather than facing him -- or working together side by side on something (like washing dishes or even when driving) -- helps him relax and he seems a bit more inclined to talk.
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Lexie, thanks for your words--I sometimes still forget that I don't have to overexplain myself to him. Less is often better. I still find myself needing to justify at times or explain as if he'll understand his kids' feelings.
Talked to both boys last night and reminded them of the language in the plan. DS14 says he will NOT go. He also said if Dad gets angry and decides not to come here (to punish them, as he's done historically), that would be great. He doesn't need to see him or get a gift.
DS16 said he's not going if DS14 doesn't go.
I told them I would send Dad an email, and that I'd include a request that in the future he checks with me before booking things.
Haven't had the energy to draft that yet. Lol. I'm making it harder than it needs to be.
Talked to both boys last night and reminded them of the language in the plan. DS14 says he will NOT go. He also said if Dad gets angry and decides not to come here (to punish them, as he's done historically), that would be great. He doesn't need to see him or get a gift.
DS16 said he's not going if DS14 doesn't go.
I told them I would send Dad an email, and that I'd include a request that in the future he checks with me before booking things.
Haven't had the energy to draft that yet. Lol. I'm making it harder than it needs to be.
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Whew - I'm glad that all worked out for the best, in my opinion. It's sad that they feel that way about their father, but happy that they see the BS and are strong enough to say "No". Good for you!
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Originally Posted by Praying 
Talked to both boys last night and reminded them of the language in the plan.
I just wanted to say that I think inserting this type of language into the plan in the first place was simply brilliant.... it seems like an incredibly effective way of giving the kids some power over their own decisions while still under an umbrella of protection.
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Lol...
ONE MONTH after I sent XAH the email stating why the kids weren't coming (that I know he received because the next day DS14 told me Dad texted him and said it was okay if they didn't come), XAH sends me an email response. An entire month later.
Starting with the words "this is unfortunate", and quoting multiple exact dates that he texted the boys and dates where they said "yes", stating that he followed the exact same protocol as the last "several visits", so he's not sure "what went wrong there".
DS16 has been there ONCE. Not several times.
What's comical is that he's still laying out his legal case as to why it's simply not his fault, so it must be mine or the boys. Missing the entire point that he could make a different effort to come see his kids. Completely ignoring my suggestion that if he came to town they'd see him.
I wanted to share this here, because 3 years ago, this email would've sent me into a tailspin. Being terrified about the case against me he was lining up, etc...and I'd have believed his words and scrambled to write an email back to correct his gross inaccuracies so the truth is on paper.
As it is, I'm not only not worried about it, I'm not even planning to respond, as he asked no questions. And I actually grinned at the audacity of it. For those of you feeling trapped in an X's crazies, IT CAN GET BETTER!!! (HE isn't behaving better, but his ability to scare and control me is gone.)
He did say that he wasn't canceling their tickets in case they changed their minds. I showed his email to the boys and told them that this was his perception of their interactions, so it's imperative that they make sure they share things honestly with me when I need to communicate with him. DS14 was ticked that "Dad lied"--DS14 never said yes, he just ignored the question. I also told them that Dad will likely ask again (at which point they said "We said no!"). I reiterated that it was perfectly fine to say no, but they should be prepared to have the discussion again in case they're talking to him and he brings it up again. I didn't want them to be blindsided. (Frankly I think they'll just avoid talking to him. THAT'S what's unfortunate. XAH may never see what this is all truly about.)
Relatively little drama.
And my heart only raced for a minute while I opened the email...then stopped when I remembered that I have control over my life, and so do my kids.
It IS possible...so hang in there and keep fighting for your power.
One month. Lol.
ONE MONTH after I sent XAH the email stating why the kids weren't coming (that I know he received because the next day DS14 told me Dad texted him and said it was okay if they didn't come), XAH sends me an email response. An entire month later.
Starting with the words "this is unfortunate", and quoting multiple exact dates that he texted the boys and dates where they said "yes", stating that he followed the exact same protocol as the last "several visits", so he's not sure "what went wrong there".
DS16 has been there ONCE. Not several times.
What's comical is that he's still laying out his legal case as to why it's simply not his fault, so it must be mine or the boys. Missing the entire point that he could make a different effort to come see his kids. Completely ignoring my suggestion that if he came to town they'd see him.
I wanted to share this here, because 3 years ago, this email would've sent me into a tailspin. Being terrified about the case against me he was lining up, etc...and I'd have believed his words and scrambled to write an email back to correct his gross inaccuracies so the truth is on paper.
As it is, I'm not only not worried about it, I'm not even planning to respond, as he asked no questions. And I actually grinned at the audacity of it. For those of you feeling trapped in an X's crazies, IT CAN GET BETTER!!! (HE isn't behaving better, but his ability to scare and control me is gone.)
He did say that he wasn't canceling their tickets in case they changed their minds. I showed his email to the boys and told them that this was his perception of their interactions, so it's imperative that they make sure they share things honestly with me when I need to communicate with him. DS14 was ticked that "Dad lied"--DS14 never said yes, he just ignored the question. I also told them that Dad will likely ask again (at which point they said "We said no!"). I reiterated that it was perfectly fine to say no, but they should be prepared to have the discussion again in case they're talking to him and he brings it up again. I didn't want them to be blindsided. (Frankly I think they'll just avoid talking to him. THAT'S what's unfortunate. XAH may never see what this is all truly about.)
Relatively little drama.
And my heart only raced for a minute while I opened the email...then stopped when I remembered that I have control over my life, and so do my kids.
It IS possible...so hang in there and keep fighting for your power.
One month. Lol.
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Well-handled.
Yeah, once you start recognizing the scripts, the plays from the playbook, and can just sort of roll your eyes over it, the tactics lose a lot of their power.
Sorry for the kids, but hey, none of you would choose for them to have a dad that behaves that way.
Yeah, once you start recognizing the scripts, the plays from the playbook, and can just sort of roll your eyes over it, the tactics lose a lot of their power.
Sorry for the kids, but hey, none of you would choose for them to have a dad that behaves that way.
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Sigh...just posting to share...
It's December 30. So far no word from XAH regarding any Christmas gifts for the boys. I assume there won't be any. But something new this year--no word from his parents either, who live here in town. They've always made a big deal out of Xmas and giving the boys things, and inviting them over the last few years. They've gone silent.
I'm pretty sure X is "punishing" them for not traveling to see him. His mother can be pretty manipulative, and she was urging the boys pretty hard to go see X. So I'm not sure what's going on with the grandparents. I hopped off that game a while back. With teen kids and everyone having a phone, X's family can nurture whatever relationship they want (or reach out to me if they choose to).
My boys' birthdays are both next month. I usually have both sets of grandparents over to celebrate. I guess I'll still invite them both to that as usual. People are so strange.
On the upside, we went to New England over Xmas to visit my sister and had a fantastic time!
It's December 30. So far no word from XAH regarding any Christmas gifts for the boys. I assume there won't be any. But something new this year--no word from his parents either, who live here in town. They've always made a big deal out of Xmas and giving the boys things, and inviting them over the last few years. They've gone silent.
I'm pretty sure X is "punishing" them for not traveling to see him. His mother can be pretty manipulative, and she was urging the boys pretty hard to go see X. So I'm not sure what's going on with the grandparents. I hopped off that game a while back. With teen kids and everyone having a phone, X's family can nurture whatever relationship they want (or reach out to me if they choose to).
My boys' birthdays are both next month. I usually have both sets of grandparents over to celebrate. I guess I'll still invite them both to that as usual. People are so strange.
On the upside, we went to New England over Xmas to visit my sister and had a fantastic time!
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Glad you enjoyed the visit to your sisters. And, there's nothing wrong with inviting his parents to any birthday celebrations if that is your norm. It's their choice whether they want to be involved with their grandchildren or not. I hate seeing how immature people can be even at that age, but I saw it with my XAH's family as well. It was sad. Hope you have a fantastic new year and new things planned moving ahead!
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