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Well, it seems to me that the affidavit will be of limited help, since it's hearsay. Maybe it will get the court to put the motion on the calendar, but I don't see any way it could be considered as evidence.
Incidentally, has she ever told anyone else about his being drunk? If there was a prior statement to someone, which pre-dates this "firing," that would be a prior consistent statement to rebut a charge of recent fabrication (exception to hearsay rule). She could explain why she was reluctant to testify before.
Just something to kick around with your lawyer.
Incidentally, has she ever told anyone else about his being drunk? If there was a prior statement to someone, which pre-dates this "firing," that would be a prior consistent statement to rebut a charge of recent fabrication (exception to hearsay rule). She could explain why she was reluctant to testify before.
Just something to kick around with your lawyer.
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Originally Posted by LexieCat 
Well, it seems to me that the affidavit will be of limited help, since it's hearsay. Maybe it will get the court to put the motion on the calendar, but I don't see any way it could be considered as evidence.
Originally Posted by LexieCat
Incidentally, has she ever told anyone else about his being drunk? If there was a prior statement to someone, which pre-dates this "firing," that would be a prior consistent statement to rebut a charge of recent fabrication (exception to hearsay rule). She could explain why she was reluctant to testify before.
At one point she took a photo of the vodka she discovered at his place, almost empty the Monday morning she came to watch the twins (they had been with him all weekend). She showed it to me but wouldn't give it to me. I wonder if she still has it.
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Doesn't hurt to ask. One great thing about digital photos: metadata. It will show WHEN the photo was taken, and with what device (and, possibly, the location if the phone/camera has GPS enabled).
This is the sort of thing I do for a living--try to help brainstorm what kinds of admissible, corroborative evidence exists.
This is the sort of thing I do for a living--try to help brainstorm what kinds of admissible, corroborative evidence exists.
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Well, here we go. My attorney contacted his toward the end of today to let him know we were preparing an emergency motion to be filed on Friday. That email got forwarded to xAH so he now knows my intent.
I texted xAH's sister to let her know I was concerned that he was relapsing. I told her that I had reached out to him and his therapist twice via email and left one message for his therapist but have not yet heard back. That I was at a point where I felt I needed to pursue alternate measures. Ended by saying that I did not expect her to take action, I just wanted to keep her in the loop.
She thanked me and asked if I thought it would help if she communicated my level of frustration to her brother. I thanked her for asking but told her I felt I had been clear and that I believed he was now aware of my intent.
She asked me if the twins were with me and I said they were, for two days, and I am hoping to have this resolved before they are due to go back to him.
My last exchange with her was a little testy so I was worried she might not take it well. But I think she's had a lot of Al Anon and is at a point where she is saying she can no longer protect her brother from his own actions. She has to detach and take care of her own family. She did not ask any questions regarding why I was concerned or challenge me.
I saw him this morning at the kids first day and he looked terrible - sweaty and agitated. It could have been first day stress, or he may have been angry my husband was there. But I don't think so. I left there more confident than ever that he was relapsing, called his therapist to tell her that's what I believed was happening and that she could call me if she thought any of my information would be helpful to her treatment. And then emailed with my attorney.
Friday's motion will focus on a request for continued monitoring but I gave him the go ahead to start speaking with experts who could testify at a custody motion. I'm almost more worried about the twins being there with him as he tries to "white knuckle" through several days at a time - emotionally if not physically.
I am sad it has come to this but I feel good about the fact that I've tried alternate avenues and they have failed. My first obligation is to the health and safety of my children, no matter what. I hope in time he will be ready to embrace a real recovery so they can have the dad they deserve and the dad I know he can be.
I texted xAH's sister to let her know I was concerned that he was relapsing. I told her that I had reached out to him and his therapist twice via email and left one message for his therapist but have not yet heard back. That I was at a point where I felt I needed to pursue alternate measures. Ended by saying that I did not expect her to take action, I just wanted to keep her in the loop.
She thanked me and asked if I thought it would help if she communicated my level of frustration to her brother. I thanked her for asking but told her I felt I had been clear and that I believed he was now aware of my intent.
She asked me if the twins were with me and I said they were, for two days, and I am hoping to have this resolved before they are due to go back to him.
My last exchange with her was a little testy so I was worried she might not take it well. But I think she's had a lot of Al Anon and is at a point where she is saying she can no longer protect her brother from his own actions. She has to detach and take care of her own family. She did not ask any questions regarding why I was concerned or challenge me.
I saw him this morning at the kids first day and he looked terrible - sweaty and agitated. It could have been first day stress, or he may have been angry my husband was there. But I don't think so. I left there more confident than ever that he was relapsing, called his therapist to tell her that's what I believed was happening and that she could call me if she thought any of my information would be helpful to her treatment. And then emailed with my attorney.
Friday's motion will focus on a request for continued monitoring but I gave him the go ahead to start speaking with experts who could testify at a custody motion. I'm almost more worried about the twins being there with him as he tries to "white knuckle" through several days at a time - emotionally if not physically.
I am sad it has come to this but I feel good about the fact that I've tried alternate avenues and they have failed. My first obligation is to the health and safety of my children, no matter what. I hope in time he will be ready to embrace a real recovery so they can have the dad they deserve and the dad I know he can be.
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Sounds to me like you are proceeding in a very rational, well-thought-out way.
I really hope you succeed with your motion. And, as I said before, even if this one doesn't persuade the judge, you are building a record that will eventually carry the day. Keep breathing--you're doing GREAT.
I really hope you succeed with your motion. And, as I said before, even if this one doesn't persuade the judge, you are building a record that will eventually carry the day. Keep breathing--you're doing GREAT.
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In reading (and relating) to this saga, I'm wondering what has happened to the sobriety monitoring. Has he quit doing it?
And, contrary to his therapist's opinion that the monitoring might interfere with his recovery, one can make a strong case that monitoring aids in recovery. It's not about punishing him or making his recovery harder; it's about, first protecting your children, but it also has the ancillary affect of keeping him accountable and thereby aiding his recovery.
And, contrary to his therapist's opinion that the monitoring might interfere with his recovery, one can make a strong case that monitoring aids in recovery. It's not about punishing him or making his recovery harder; it's about, first protecting your children, but it also has the ancillary affect of keeping him accountable and thereby aiding his recovery.
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Originally Posted by sauerkraut
In reading (and relating) to this saga, I'm wondering what has happened to the sobriety monitoring. Has he quit doing it?
I just read my attorney's motion; it is strong. He's scheduled to speak with xAH's attorney in the morning with hopes of settling before the motion is filed. Fingers crossed.
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Our attorneys are negotiating now. He's agreed to another 6 months of SoberLink monitoring, starting tomorrow - with the results sent directly to me - but doesn't want to meet with a mediator.
I'm pushing hard that we kick off with a meeting with our mediator and end the six month period with the same. Otherwise, we're frankly in mostly the same spot; I get notice of a missed test but there is no way for me to take action on it unless I drag him into court via another emergency motion.
I'm pushing hard that we kick off with a meeting with our mediator and end the six month period with the same. Otherwise, we're frankly in mostly the same spot; I get notice of a missed test but there is no way for me to take action on it unless I drag him into court via another emergency motion.
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I would say that if he will agree to 6 months of Sober Link, he should agree to have that in an enforceable court order, with an immediate consequence for missing even a single test. For example, you can withhold his parenting time if he misses even a single test. Write it into the order.
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Suggested to my attorney. He pointed out that although doing something like that would be better for conflict management, legally it might be helpful to have hard proof of a missed test without an established protocol in order to go into court and request more aggressive court action.
I think he foresees the fact that this current motion is a tide me over; and he's anticipating we are going to at some point need to file a motion for sole custody. He's thinking two steps ahead.
I think he foresees the fact that this current motion is a tide me over; and he's anticipating we are going to at some point need to file a motion for sole custody. He's thinking two steps ahead.
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Obviously you and your attorney are much more well-versed in all the gory details of your situation. Please just make sure your attorney is also taking into consideration the immediate safety of your children, and not sacrificing that at the altar of "two steps ahead."
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I'm SO relieved for you! I think it was absolutely the right thing to do.
Too bad it has to take all this WORK on your part to keep your kids safe, but very glad you put the effort (and money) into doing it.
Hugs!
Too bad it has to take all this WORK on your part to keep your kids safe, but very glad you put the effort (and money) into doing it.
Hugs!
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Originally Posted by LexieCat
Too bad it has to take all this WORK on your part to keep your kids safe, but very glad you put the effort (and money) into doing it.
I filled his sister in on the result as well, and she said she was happy and thanked me for letting her know about the situation, that she really appreciates when I keep her abreast of things. So I feel good about that, too. I feel like the more I can work with her, the more she will recognize that my intent is positive and the more likely she will be to trust me - and to be willing to work with me to protect the twins, should it ever come to that.
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He came to pick up the twins this morning to walk them to school. He was sober and friendly (which is kind of miraculous when you consider the past few days we've had).
His hands were shaking visibly, so that confirms for me that he was in fact relapsing when I put all this in motion.
I remember when he relapsed in April, he almost seemed relieved to have been caught and to be starting SoberLink. I got that sense again this morning. It's like he's a totally different person than he was just a few days ago when he was so angry and telling me that he was fine. I feel like I'm dealing with two separate entities. I guess it could just be that he's so much more in control of not revealing his emotions when he's sober.
His hands were shaking visibly, so that confirms for me that he was in fact relapsing when I put all this in motion.
I remember when he relapsed in April, he almost seemed relieved to have been caught and to be starting SoberLink. I got that sense again this morning. It's like he's a totally different person than he was just a few days ago when he was so angry and telling me that he was fine. I feel like I'm dealing with two separate entities. I guess it could just be that he's so much more in control of not revealing his emotions when he's sober.
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It could also be that he's starting to realize how much his drinking is impacting his life. Lots of alcoholics WANT to be sober--on some level, anyway. They just have trouble envisioning life without it, and keep wanting to be able to drink like a normal person. A lot of these folks teeter on the edge, going back and forth, for quite a while. I did. Hopefully he will eventually have that revelation that unless he does something drastic, his life will become one big pool of suckage.
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Last week, I was almost giddy for the resolution. The xAH called me three times to set up the SoberLink and make sure that I knew he was working on it (he finally did get it to activate, but it was a little complicated and some details we needed to cooperate on). He even offered that I could come pick up the kids if he didn't get it activated in time.
I felt so optimistic about everything and told my husband so, but he was pretty reserved about the whole thing and reminded me that this is essentially exactly what xAH was like just four months ago when I caught him relapsing.
"It's impossible to know if he is REALLY feeling good and relieved about this whole thing or is just acting that way because he knows it's the only way to get you off his back and trusting him," he said.
He's right of course. We've been here before. And first: it's impossible to know his motivations and second: even if his intentions are pure, it's impossible to know if he will be strong enough to live them through.
I'm next to certain he isn't doing AA or anything like that, so I just really don't know that he's getting the structure or support he needs so early in recovery.
Anyway, it made my stomach drop a little bit to realize my husband was right - this IS almost exactly the way xAH behaved last time he relapsed and committed to his sobriety.
I've been super emotional about unrelated things all weekend. I guess I'm just trying to process that we aren't at the end, if anything maybe only the beginning of the end...
I felt so optimistic about everything and told my husband so, but he was pretty reserved about the whole thing and reminded me that this is essentially exactly what xAH was like just four months ago when I caught him relapsing.
"It's impossible to know if he is REALLY feeling good and relieved about this whole thing or is just acting that way because he knows it's the only way to get you off his back and trusting him," he said.
He's right of course. We've been here before. And first: it's impossible to know his motivations and second: even if his intentions are pure, it's impossible to know if he will be strong enough to live them through.
I'm next to certain he isn't doing AA or anything like that, so I just really don't know that he's getting the structure or support he needs so early in recovery.
Anyway, it made my stomach drop a little bit to realize my husband was right - this IS almost exactly the way xAH behaved last time he relapsed and committed to his sobriety.
I've been super emotional about unrelated things all weekend. I guess I'm just trying to process that we aren't at the end, if anything maybe only the beginning of the end...
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Well we had the mediation. And I think I accomplished what I was hoping to accomplish, maybe even a little more.
We reached alignment on and signed a contract related to his SoberLink monitoring. He will monitor twice a day for six months, and in the event of a late (by more than one hour) or missed test, the twins will come to me for two days, and we will have an emergency meeting with the mediator. A missed test will also extend his testing period by two months.
Maybe more importantly, I think the mediator has a good sense of what's going on. We spent 90 minutes with her and almost two thirds of that time was spent with her talking to him about his alcoholism.
She started by asking him how long the alcoholism had been going on, and he told her that about a year ago he had decided it would be best to address it and pursue treatment.
She asked if he felt that he could drink sometimes, and he said no, "it's best if I don't drink at all" and explained that's why he had selected the unlimited SoberLink program (vs the 15 test per month option).
She asked whether he was active in AA (something I suspected he was not but didn't have confirmation one way or the other). He explained that he had a sponsor but it was "an unhealthy situation - and I talked with several people and they agreed" so he discontinued it. He doesn't like the aftercare or AA meetings because they are too large, he didn't always get a chance to speak, and he finds them depressing - he often felt like he wanted to drink after leaving them. He found it much more useful to meet in the smaller group settings like he had in treatment.
The mediator kept at him - ok, so the small groups are useful for you. But you don't have that right now. How can you find one?
He explained that he and his therapist had been talking about how to do that.
He mentioned liking one specific AA meeting in a particular area, and she said, "Well that's great - is there a reason you can't get there regularly?"
He said that he had been thinking about that.
She asked him outright if he felt that the one therapy session a week was enough structure to support him this early in his recovery and he said yes, it's been very helpful.
They discussed how AA isn't for everyone, and how he felt it probably wasn't for him.
She suggested that our next meeting be with the three of us plus his therapist and his body language made it clear that there was NO WAY he would consider that, although he promised her he would "think about it."
She also suggested the two of us sit down to discuss with the twins what was happening at a very high level, maybe get them some therapy, and he said there was no reason to do that. (Previously she had asked if I believed they knew and I said yes, they don't know what but they know something is wrong, they worry about him and they are confused about why I am "keeping them" from their dad.)
His language throughout suggested that he felt a number of the steps she suggested were unnecessary because he does not anticipate that there will be any issues in the future.
He still has not admitted to relapsing in early July or the past few weeks and only positioned my concern as being due to him discontinuing SoberLink. I let him speak without interruption, but afterward said, "I want to be clear; I believe you have had four relapses since you ended treatment last summer" and then detailed them. He continued to maintain he had only relapsed once and "we will have to agree to disagree." Fine - my goal wasn't to convince him but to make sure the mediator understood that I was certain that had been the case.
I made the point that I think there are three parties in conflict here - me, him, and his disease. And as much as I would like to believe him, we have this third opponent who might be stronger than both of us. And I continued to talk in that manner - eg I know he wants X but the alcoholism wants Y.
At one point during the session he said, "You always used to say that I was the worst liar." And I agreed, but said, "That's true: You, AXH, are a terrible liar. But your alcoholism is the best liar I've ever met."
The mediator asked me if I didn't trust his therapist who seemed to believe he was doing so well, and I said that frankly, I believe he's snowing her. He's very charming, and I am afraid that on some level he's doing this all to get me off his back so he can go back to drinking. I told her how frightened I was to get a note from her talking about the control he had on his recovery, and how he had taken proactive steps to give others confidence in his recovery - just one month after four missed SoberLink tests. One of those things can't be true: Either the missed tests indicate he relapsed. Or he legitimately forgot the device and missed two tests - but then made an active decision NOT to test twice more after he knew I was concerned he had relapsed.
She clearly took that in.
After the session, he left and I ran into her in the hallway after going to the bathroom. She asked me how I thought it went and made reference to the possible next meeting with his therapist and how that probably wouldn't happen because he "wants to keep her to himself."
I told her that's not why he didn't want her to meet with us - it's that he doesn't want me to convince her that he had actually relapsed. She clearly hadn't considered that was why, but I think it made sense to her once I said it.
She said, "Well, he's clearly got a ways to go" and I took that to mean at best she understands he is early in the recovery or at worst, that he hasn't actually committed to it yet.
We will meet with her again in a month; we made the appointment before we left.
Overall I feel like it was a success because I left with a signed contract and I believe now the mediator knows what is up and can advocate on behalf of the twins.
We reached alignment on and signed a contract related to his SoberLink monitoring. He will monitor twice a day for six months, and in the event of a late (by more than one hour) or missed test, the twins will come to me for two days, and we will have an emergency meeting with the mediator. A missed test will also extend his testing period by two months.
Maybe more importantly, I think the mediator has a good sense of what's going on. We spent 90 minutes with her and almost two thirds of that time was spent with her talking to him about his alcoholism.
She started by asking him how long the alcoholism had been going on, and he told her that about a year ago he had decided it would be best to address it and pursue treatment.
She asked if he felt that he could drink sometimes, and he said no, "it's best if I don't drink at all" and explained that's why he had selected the unlimited SoberLink program (vs the 15 test per month option).
She asked whether he was active in AA (something I suspected he was not but didn't have confirmation one way or the other). He explained that he had a sponsor but it was "an unhealthy situation - and I talked with several people and they agreed" so he discontinued it. He doesn't like the aftercare or AA meetings because they are too large, he didn't always get a chance to speak, and he finds them depressing - he often felt like he wanted to drink after leaving them. He found it much more useful to meet in the smaller group settings like he had in treatment.
The mediator kept at him - ok, so the small groups are useful for you. But you don't have that right now. How can you find one?
He explained that he and his therapist had been talking about how to do that.
He mentioned liking one specific AA meeting in a particular area, and she said, "Well that's great - is there a reason you can't get there regularly?"
He said that he had been thinking about that.
She asked him outright if he felt that the one therapy session a week was enough structure to support him this early in his recovery and he said yes, it's been very helpful.
They discussed how AA isn't for everyone, and how he felt it probably wasn't for him.
She suggested that our next meeting be with the three of us plus his therapist and his body language made it clear that there was NO WAY he would consider that, although he promised her he would "think about it."
She also suggested the two of us sit down to discuss with the twins what was happening at a very high level, maybe get them some therapy, and he said there was no reason to do that. (Previously she had asked if I believed they knew and I said yes, they don't know what but they know something is wrong, they worry about him and they are confused about why I am "keeping them" from their dad.)
His language throughout suggested that he felt a number of the steps she suggested were unnecessary because he does not anticipate that there will be any issues in the future.
He still has not admitted to relapsing in early July or the past few weeks and only positioned my concern as being due to him discontinuing SoberLink. I let him speak without interruption, but afterward said, "I want to be clear; I believe you have had four relapses since you ended treatment last summer" and then detailed them. He continued to maintain he had only relapsed once and "we will have to agree to disagree." Fine - my goal wasn't to convince him but to make sure the mediator understood that I was certain that had been the case.
I made the point that I think there are three parties in conflict here - me, him, and his disease. And as much as I would like to believe him, we have this third opponent who might be stronger than both of us. And I continued to talk in that manner - eg I know he wants X but the alcoholism wants Y.
At one point during the session he said, "You always used to say that I was the worst liar." And I agreed, but said, "That's true: You, AXH, are a terrible liar. But your alcoholism is the best liar I've ever met."
The mediator asked me if I didn't trust his therapist who seemed to believe he was doing so well, and I said that frankly, I believe he's snowing her. He's very charming, and I am afraid that on some level he's doing this all to get me off his back so he can go back to drinking. I told her how frightened I was to get a note from her talking about the control he had on his recovery, and how he had taken proactive steps to give others confidence in his recovery - just one month after four missed SoberLink tests. One of those things can't be true: Either the missed tests indicate he relapsed. Or he legitimately forgot the device and missed two tests - but then made an active decision NOT to test twice more after he knew I was concerned he had relapsed.
She clearly took that in.
After the session, he left and I ran into her in the hallway after going to the bathroom. She asked me how I thought it went and made reference to the possible next meeting with his therapist and how that probably wouldn't happen because he "wants to keep her to himself."
I told her that's not why he didn't want her to meet with us - it's that he doesn't want me to convince her that he had actually relapsed. She clearly hadn't considered that was why, but I think it made sense to her once I said it.
She said, "Well, he's clearly got a ways to go" and I took that to mean at best she understands he is early in the recovery or at worst, that he hasn't actually committed to it yet.
We will meet with her again in a month; we made the appointment before we left.
Overall I feel like it was a success because I left with a signed contract and I believe now the mediator knows what is up and can advocate on behalf of the twins.
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CoParentoA......I think you did a good job holding the line.
He is right about one thing....
AA isn't for everyone....AA is for quitters!
I have long noticed how those who are not fully committed---when faced with pressure, of some kind, concerning their alcoholism...are willing to go to "a counselor" over AA.
I am wondering if it isn't because they feel that they have a chance of snowing the counselor,,,,,and that there is no stigma of the alcoholism as long as they can say..."I never had to go to AA".
It is a lot easier to bull**** a single counselor than it is a whole group of other alcoholics...lol....
He is right about one thing....
AA isn't for everyone....AA is for quitters!
I have long noticed how those who are not fully committed---when faced with pressure, of some kind, concerning their alcoholism...are willing to go to "a counselor" over AA.
I am wondering if it isn't because they feel that they have a chance of snowing the counselor,,,,,and that there is no stigma of the alcoholism as long as they can say..."I never had to go to AA".
It is a lot easier to bull**** a single counselor than it is a whole group of other alcoholics...lol....
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