The Classifications of F&F...
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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The Classifications of F&F...
I'm like a sponge these days when it comes to stories and posts here. It's remarkable what you can learn when you read some stories here, some which span YEARS, to discover patterns, and just see how things play out in this horrible world of alcoholism.
In doing this, I've realized there is likely a way to categorize the different high level types of F&F situations here, but more interestingly, the frequency of the dynamic occurring.
In other words, long term, what has the track record been of a F&F been when it comes to dealing with this issue, and what has been the outcome?
I may be missing some scenarios here, but here's what I have ranked, top to bottom, as far as the top being the MOST common I have seen around here, long-term, and the bottom being the LEAST common.
Note, the least common is the one every F&F wanted when we came here! It's also the one I have never seen lasting except in some very rare cases.
And the first one is the most common, the one no one wanted when they came here, but the one everyone seems to push folks towards ("Run! Run!") and the ultimate outcome that seems to happen for most members who run into this.
Discuss? 1 being most often, 5 being least often. Statistically.
1. F&F Separated from active alcoholic, active alcoholic never seeked recovery, moved on to new enabler, kept the party going. But F&F doing great, happy to be free, don't care about the alcoholic anymore or lovingly detached! F&F is awesome, happy, free, A is out of their life and life is awesome now!
2. F&F Separated from active alcoholic, active alcoholic never seeked recovery, moved on to new enabler, kept the party going. F&F miserable, missing the alcoholic, the "good times", wishing they would come back sober, etc.
3. F&F Living with active alcoholic, had once separated, alcoholic was invited back under guise of recovery, alcoholic picked up drinking again actively (recovery failed). Now in limbo and possibly looking at becoming a #1.
4. F&F Living with active alcoholic, never tried to leave (but are here thinking about how to do it), alcoholic never seeked and not interested in seeking recovery. Stuck.
5. Living with alcoholic, active alcoholic seeked and working recovery 100%, reconciled, back together, everything great - no relapse, alcohol-free!
In doing this, I've realized there is likely a way to categorize the different high level types of F&F situations here, but more interestingly, the frequency of the dynamic occurring.
In other words, long term, what has the track record been of a F&F been when it comes to dealing with this issue, and what has been the outcome?
I may be missing some scenarios here, but here's what I have ranked, top to bottom, as far as the top being the MOST common I have seen around here, long-term, and the bottom being the LEAST common.
Note, the least common is the one every F&F wanted when we came here! It's also the one I have never seen lasting except in some very rare cases.
And the first one is the most common, the one no one wanted when they came here, but the one everyone seems to push folks towards ("Run! Run!") and the ultimate outcome that seems to happen for most members who run into this.
Discuss? 1 being most often, 5 being least often. Statistically.
1. F&F Separated from active alcoholic, active alcoholic never seeked recovery, moved on to new enabler, kept the party going. But F&F doing great, happy to be free, don't care about the alcoholic anymore or lovingly detached! F&F is awesome, happy, free, A is out of their life and life is awesome now!
2. F&F Separated from active alcoholic, active alcoholic never seeked recovery, moved on to new enabler, kept the party going. F&F miserable, missing the alcoholic, the "good times", wishing they would come back sober, etc.
3. F&F Living with active alcoholic, had once separated, alcoholic was invited back under guise of recovery, alcoholic picked up drinking again actively (recovery failed). Now in limbo and possibly looking at becoming a #1.
4. F&F Living with active alcoholic, never tried to leave (but are here thinking about how to do it), alcoholic never seeked and not interested in seeking recovery. Stuck.
5. Living with alcoholic, active alcoholic seeked and working recovery 100%, reconciled, back together, everything great - no relapse, alcohol-free!
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Posts: 3,699
I think your outcomes listed are just options (most of which i didn't even consider when I arrived here.) And I don't think all of the people whose addicts recovered are still here. And I don't think that all of the marriages where one or both people recovered made it.
Id you are just wondering about numbers...
Statistically - I think recovery rates are SUPER fuzzy...for addicts and codies as well. How could it ever be 1 - measured. 2 - measured without bias based on recovery program or 3- measure the people that have done it alone without a program (that happens here and there too.)
I showed up here searching for odds...and I scoured the internet....and I never received hard numbers.
I wanted to know how many alcoholics sobered up.
What age they did it at.
And how long they stayed sober.
I wanted to know how many relationships survived addiction.
Haha - that's kind of funny for me to read now....5 years later.
I did not get much of an answer on any of that, but due to my misguided stats brain codie research, how I felt about what I do with the little time I am given in my short, SHORT life changed forever. My constant living for the future turned mostly to living for today. And my desperate and stressful need to be the architect of a perfect and beautiful imaginary life built around me turned to a peaceful and general acceptance of what actually IS.
Id you are just wondering about numbers...
Statistically - I think recovery rates are SUPER fuzzy...for addicts and codies as well. How could it ever be 1 - measured. 2 - measured without bias based on recovery program or 3- measure the people that have done it alone without a program (that happens here and there too.)
I showed up here searching for odds...and I scoured the internet....and I never received hard numbers.
I wanted to know how many alcoholics sobered up.
What age they did it at.
And how long they stayed sober.
I wanted to know how many relationships survived addiction.
Haha - that's kind of funny for me to read now....5 years later.
I did not get much of an answer on any of that, but due to my misguided stats brain codie research, how I felt about what I do with the little time I am given in my short, SHORT life changed forever. My constant living for the future turned mostly to living for today. And my desperate and stressful need to be the architect of a perfect and beautiful imaginary life built around me turned to a peaceful and general acceptance of what actually IS.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Wells....I haven't bothered to do any counting....but, just for kicks....I would say that , after several thousand posting on threads...I have the "impression" that the order is more l ike---
4
2
1
3
5
I will admit that it is thought provoking material....
dandylion
4
2
1
3
5
I will admit that it is thought provoking material....
dandylion
Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 384
I'm definitely between 1&2 now. When I first came here my story was that I had no idea what the heck just happened to me. I didn't even know what was real. I even started a thread called, "I don't know what's real anymore". I was seriously confused and bewildered. I was still in a fog and couldn't make sense of what just occurred for the past few months of my life. It felt like a big blur.
Even when things started to make sense I was a big fat 2. I bargained hard for months.. in fact taking about it right now is helping me see that while I occasionally still bargain it's not nearly as bad. I let him put so much blame and guilt on me and I took it all without realizing.
It's hard for someone new to these boards to hear that chances are you're going to have to walk away, forever. It's hard to give up on someone you thought you loved. I'm saying that because I still don't know if I truly loved exA or pitied him and tried to save him. The more time that goes on the smaller he seems in that his tactics and manipulations are clear to me now and seem almost... desperate. I'm still feeling strong urges to help him and bring him up and show him that life doesn't have to be such a struggle... but it's now something I understand as my sick way of relating to people. He is a grown man and can take care of himself how he sees fit...
Learning about codependency and accepting that letting go is an act of love, and to hold on only hurts the other person was such an eye opener. A liberating, five ton weight off my shoulders type of liberation. (You mean, he can take care of himself?)
Course it just opened the doors I shut myself years ago. I barricaded things I didn't want to face behind exA and his "stuff". Then I could be a martyr and save the (his) day and we'd be so happy and live happily ever after, ugh. I almost think it would be tougher if he had sought treatment. Could I have lived knowing that he could relapse at any moment? Could I walk away knowing that he "saw the light"?
This is so hard and I have such compassion for anyone going through this
Even when things started to make sense I was a big fat 2. I bargained hard for months.. in fact taking about it right now is helping me see that while I occasionally still bargain it's not nearly as bad. I let him put so much blame and guilt on me and I took it all without realizing.
It's hard for someone new to these boards to hear that chances are you're going to have to walk away, forever. It's hard to give up on someone you thought you loved. I'm saying that because I still don't know if I truly loved exA or pitied him and tried to save him. The more time that goes on the smaller he seems in that his tactics and manipulations are clear to me now and seem almost... desperate. I'm still feeling strong urges to help him and bring him up and show him that life doesn't have to be such a struggle... but it's now something I understand as my sick way of relating to people. He is a grown man and can take care of himself how he sees fit...
Learning about codependency and accepting that letting go is an act of love, and to hold on only hurts the other person was such an eye opener. A liberating, five ton weight off my shoulders type of liberation. (You mean, he can take care of himself?)
Course it just opened the doors I shut myself years ago. I barricaded things I didn't want to face behind exA and his "stuff". Then I could be a martyr and save the (his) day and we'd be so happy and live happily ever after, ugh. I almost think it would be tougher if he had sought treatment. Could I have lived knowing that he could relapse at any moment? Could I walk away knowing that he "saw the light"?
This is so hard and I have such compassion for anyone going through this
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
the conundrum is that no matter where WE are on the scale, it has NO effect on the outcome of the alcoholic. we can stay , we can leave, we can scream, we can be silent, we can threat, we can promise, we can get healthy, we can get sicker.......but that is just US. the afflicted person is going to do what they are going to do, they are going to walk their own path, find their way or not.
our lesson, our purpose in the current situation may be nothing more than a lesson for US to learn. having little to no effect on the other.
our lesson, our purpose in the current situation may be nothing more than a lesson for US to learn. having little to no effect on the other.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Impossible to say. There is a very specific category of people who come here, for the most part. That is people who are opening their eyes to how effed up their lives are becoming as a result of living with someone else's drinking. I think the categories you are talking about--where the RELATIONSHIP is at a given moment--don't tell you much. Nor does the state of the alcoholic's drinking or recovery.
So I think it makes more sense to think in terms of where partners/family are on the scale of their own ability to deal with it. Let's face it, plenty of people walk away, without a whole lot of angst, as soon as life with an alcoholic starts adversely affecting them. They don't try to fix it, they don't bend themselves into pretzels to accommodate it--they observe, maybe make a demand or two that things change, and when it doesn't, they split up. It happens, we don't see it here because they have already seen it as a deal-breaker and accept it, leave, and move on.
There are people in the throes of trying to "fix it"--by forcing the alcoholic to change or by losing themselves in the process of trying to make life so comfortable for the alcoholic that s/he won't "have" to drink.
There are the people who are nearing the ends of their ropes but feel stuck and can't figure out a way out.
There are the people who do a yo-yo dance for years, leaving and then coming back because they are unable to accept that it's over, or because they continue in the belief that "THIS time it will be different."
And then there are the people who leave and heal and move on with their lives, OR who are fortunate enough to have an alcoholic who embraces recovery and are able to make the adjustments to living with a sober partner. In this category, both are success stories.
I think the focus in your categories, Wells, is too much on the alcoholic or the state of the particular relationship, suggesting that "success" requires both parties to remain together happily.
So I think it makes more sense to think in terms of where partners/family are on the scale of their own ability to deal with it. Let's face it, plenty of people walk away, without a whole lot of angst, as soon as life with an alcoholic starts adversely affecting them. They don't try to fix it, they don't bend themselves into pretzels to accommodate it--they observe, maybe make a demand or two that things change, and when it doesn't, they split up. It happens, we don't see it here because they have already seen it as a deal-breaker and accept it, leave, and move on.
There are people in the throes of trying to "fix it"--by forcing the alcoholic to change or by losing themselves in the process of trying to make life so comfortable for the alcoholic that s/he won't "have" to drink.
There are the people who are nearing the ends of their ropes but feel stuck and can't figure out a way out.
There are the people who do a yo-yo dance for years, leaving and then coming back because they are unable to accept that it's over, or because they continue in the belief that "THIS time it will be different."
And then there are the people who leave and heal and move on with their lives, OR who are fortunate enough to have an alcoholic who embraces recovery and are able to make the adjustments to living with a sober partner. In this category, both are success stories.
I think the focus in your categories, Wells, is too much on the alcoholic or the state of the particular relationship, suggesting that "success" requires both parties to remain together happily.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 166
It's funny, I've slid along these different categories of the spectrum. I thought I was a "5" (mistakenly) a while ago, was a "3" for a while, and now am sliding between 1 and 2. I guess my A falls into the category of "acknowledges he is an A, makes outward attempts at sobriety, is active in AA, etc., but keeps relapsing." His other enabler in his case is probably his mother who drinks with him. And I am just in the "I'm sick and tired and finally need to once and for all stop making this the center of my life." I think the last sentence is the key here, for a lot of us.
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Several dedicated posters here have said that recovery to the relationship takes 5 years once the sobriety sticks.
Most stories we hear about here the addict partner never really maintains much sobriety, so this clock just doesn't start. For others, the hurt is too deep and the relationship dissolves despite the A is actually embarking on a recovery that will stick.
My H remains sober for 3+ years now. Day to day things are fine, but he refused to really work on our relationship much with a counselor. When the counselor recommended he go individually, that was the end of that. Accepting that your partner is actually the Dark Irish silent brooding type that always caught your eye and letting him be is really difficult. He's set up his life now that the only two people who really see how closed off he is emotionally is me and our son. I pray he decides to work on whatever he's buried, but my recovery has to accept that this might be it for him. This might be the best he can do.
Your #5'does not take in all of the pain and exhaustion of that first year of recovery when the A is just learning to function hour by hour without their drug of choice. Relearning to sleep. Relearning how to handle daily stress. Changing how they approach work or finding a new job. The family gets scraped and skinned and bruised with the up and down of a first year - even when the A succeeds.
There's a ton of sacrifice in working recovery. Whether you are at meetings, working the steps, reading recovery materials, meeting with your sponsor and/or counselor. It is a huge time commitment but it can be healing and helpful to rebuild trust. Dealing with the past is really painful. I became depressed during this time and needed meds for awhile. Recovery restructures your whole family life and has many facets and stages that takes a lot of time.
Most stories we hear about here the addict partner never really maintains much sobriety, so this clock just doesn't start. For others, the hurt is too deep and the relationship dissolves despite the A is actually embarking on a recovery that will stick.
My H remains sober for 3+ years now. Day to day things are fine, but he refused to really work on our relationship much with a counselor. When the counselor recommended he go individually, that was the end of that. Accepting that your partner is actually the Dark Irish silent brooding type that always caught your eye and letting him be is really difficult. He's set up his life now that the only two people who really see how closed off he is emotionally is me and our son. I pray he decides to work on whatever he's buried, but my recovery has to accept that this might be it for him. This might be the best he can do.
Your #5'does not take in all of the pain and exhaustion of that first year of recovery when the A is just learning to function hour by hour without their drug of choice. Relearning to sleep. Relearning how to handle daily stress. Changing how they approach work or finding a new job. The family gets scraped and skinned and bruised with the up and down of a first year - even when the A succeeds.
There's a ton of sacrifice in working recovery. Whether you are at meetings, working the steps, reading recovery materials, meeting with your sponsor and/or counselor. It is a huge time commitment but it can be healing and helpful to rebuild trust. Dealing with the past is really painful. I became depressed during this time and needed meds for awhile. Recovery restructures your whole family life and has many facets and stages that takes a lot of time.
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: east coast
Posts: 526
Originally Posted by LexieCat 
Impossible to say. There is a very specific category of people who come here, for the most part. That is people who are opening their eyes to how effed up their lives are becoming as a result of living with someone else's drinking. I think the categories you are talking about--where the RELATIONSHIP is at a given moment--don't tell you much. Nor does the state of the alcoholic's drinking or recovery.
So I think it makes more sense to think in terms of where partners/family are on the scale of their own ability to deal with it. Let's face it, plenty of people walk away, without a whole lot of angst, as soon as life with an alcoholic starts adversely affecting them. They don't try to fix it, they don't bend themselves into pretzels to accommodate it--they observe, maybe make a demand or two that things change, and when it doesn't, they split up. It happens, we don't see it here because they have already seen it as a deal-breaker and accept it, leave, and move on.
So I think it makes more sense to think in terms of where partners/family are on the scale of their own ability to deal with it. Let's face it, plenty of people walk away, without a whole lot of angst, as soon as life with an alcoholic starts adversely affecting them. They don't try to fix it, they don't bend themselves into pretzels to accommodate it--they observe, maybe make a demand or two that things change, and when it doesn't, they split up. It happens, we don't see it here because they have already seen it as a deal-breaker and accept it, leave, and move on.
I have heard- when someone tell you who they are, believe them.
I think you are right- that is why we don't see this here. After 33 years of marriage, finally, this is what I am doing. And I don't believe him when he says he will quit drinking on his own. I don't believe him when he says he will never ever hurt me again.
If he was a real man and truly wanted me back, he would be going to AA. He would be paying me alimony instead of refusing to negotiate. He would not be delaying the divorce. He would not be telling my children I refuse to go to counselling with him and -poor me- after all I am willing to quit drinking and do anything to get her back. Which isn't true because he won't go to AA and he would not throw out the booze. After I left he tried to clean out our financial accounts- and the lawyer told him to put the money back. But I work part time and he was trying to get me back with financial pressure. Done. Ain't going to work with me!!
Last edited by DesertEyes; 08-13-2016 at 08:16 AM. Reason: Fixed broken quote
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Wells....I haven't bothered to do any counting....but, just for kicks....I would say that , after several thousand posting on threads...I have the "impression" that the order is more l ike---
4
2
1
3
5
I will admit that it is thought provoking material....
dandylion
4
2
1
3
5
I will admit that it is thought provoking material....
dandylion
I am happy to be the rare 5!
Reach Out and Touch Faith
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On a Sailboat
Posts: 3,871
Number 1. By the time I was done with the active alcoholic there wasn't anything left to miss. He keeps going downhill, and is using other drugs now as well. We have a platonic friendship but I rarely can find the kindhearted man under his mask any longer. It breaks my heart to see him this way. He sits in his van and just drinks and smokes (our home is no smoking).
We never shared many joint interests so that may have played a role in the fact leaving him was easier than I expected. We still share a home but I rarely see him. When we were together he expressed interest in going to SMART meetings, but since I have completed my facilitator training he hasn't shown he cares to attend.
At one point we were number 5. Then he started drinking again and I looked back at our relationship and found very little give and take. He was kind one moment and then turned into a mean SOB. No one needs that.
I'm much happier now and am working SMART family and friends to better myself.
We never shared many joint interests so that may have played a role in the fact leaving him was easier than I expected. We still share a home but I rarely see him. When we were together he expressed interest in going to SMART meetings, but since I have completed my facilitator training he hasn't shown he cares to attend.
At one point we were number 5. Then he started drinking again and I looked back at our relationship and found very little give and take. He was kind one moment and then turned into a mean SOB. No one needs that.
I'm much happier now and am working SMART family and friends to better myself.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 216
Thanks to all who replied. I do want to make clear I fully understand that this is not necessarily even close to a "catch all" type list of every time of relationship with an addict, nor a classification that is meant to favor the F&F's recovery status over the addict's.
Like many, I came here for help as well as understanding, and had realized that it might be useful to see the general types of scenarios I was seeing most frequently here in this forum, specifically with alcoholics, and then try and show the most common to the least -- Probably the most eye-opening being the fact that the once alcoholic, who is in recovery, currently back living with the partner, happily, is the most rare (and also the one I think many of us originally came here seeking to get to, the elusive #5).
I won't change the numbering system, but I will use A-F as primary as I do agree now, it seems that the frequency spectrum is a bit different than I had originally thought, at least, only looking at the small sampling of those of us who chose to come here (realizing there is a large segment of the world who never seeks or finds this place).
This focuses only on those of us who chose to come here and share.
---
(A) 4. F&F Living with active alcoholic, never tried to leave (but are here to look for help, support, understanding). Alcoholic not interested in seeking recovery. F&F Stuck. (most common)
(B) 2. F&F has now separated from active alcoholic, and the active alcoholic never looked for recovery. Alcoholic is out and wants to keep the party going. F&F is here because they are sad, need support, missing the alcoholic, the "good times", wishing they would come back sober, etc.
(C) 1. F&F has separated from active alcoholic, active alcoholic never looked for recovery. Alcoholic is out and wants to keep the party going. F&F doing great, happy to be free, don't think about the alcoholic anymore or is lovingly detached! F&F is awesome, happy, free, alcoholic is out of their life and life is great now!
(D) 3. F&F is back living with active alcoholic, after one or more separations. Alcoholic was invited back into F&F's life under real or fake recovery, or just general weakness on part of the F&F, without boundaries. Alcoholic has now picked up drinking again actively (recovery failed) and the pattern is repeating. F&F is now in limbo and possibly looking at becoming a #1 by leaving.
(E) 5. Living with alcoholic, active alcoholic is successfully working recovery 100%, reconciled, back together, everything great - no relapse, alcohol-free! (least common)
----
I reworded some of them a bit to make it clear and I used the order a couple of the long-timers above stated for commonalities as I agree...These seem to be the rankings among the community in this forum that we see and I'm pretty sure most of the people posting threads here fit into one of the 5.
The eye-opening understanding here is to see that E5 is the most rare no matter how you slice it.
The other crazy thing I realized is that I was a D3 for a long time too. That category may be more common than we think, but I think those are also the people who don't come back to post as much which is why it is ranked 4th. The people who weaken and let them back in which I did several times in the past. I once read here that often when someone disappears they have let the alcoholic back in with no conditions (D4) and no longer come here for support, they have just given up their own program.
This is not an exact science I realize, but seeing the patterns helps me anyway.
Like many, I came here for help as well as understanding, and had realized that it might be useful to see the general types of scenarios I was seeing most frequently here in this forum, specifically with alcoholics, and then try and show the most common to the least -- Probably the most eye-opening being the fact that the once alcoholic, who is in recovery, currently back living with the partner, happily, is the most rare (and also the one I think many of us originally came here seeking to get to, the elusive #5).
I won't change the numbering system, but I will use A-F as primary as I do agree now, it seems that the frequency spectrum is a bit different than I had originally thought, at least, only looking at the small sampling of those of us who chose to come here (realizing there is a large segment of the world who never seeks or finds this place).
This focuses only on those of us who chose to come here and share.
---
(A) 4. F&F Living with active alcoholic, never tried to leave (but are here to look for help, support, understanding). Alcoholic not interested in seeking recovery. F&F Stuck. (most common)
(B) 2. F&F has now separated from active alcoholic, and the active alcoholic never looked for recovery. Alcoholic is out and wants to keep the party going. F&F is here because they are sad, need support, missing the alcoholic, the "good times", wishing they would come back sober, etc.
(C) 1. F&F has separated from active alcoholic, active alcoholic never looked for recovery. Alcoholic is out and wants to keep the party going. F&F doing great, happy to be free, don't think about the alcoholic anymore or is lovingly detached! F&F is awesome, happy, free, alcoholic is out of their life and life is great now!
(D) 3. F&F is back living with active alcoholic, after one or more separations. Alcoholic was invited back into F&F's life under real or fake recovery, or just general weakness on part of the F&F, without boundaries. Alcoholic has now picked up drinking again actively (recovery failed) and the pattern is repeating. F&F is now in limbo and possibly looking at becoming a #1 by leaving.
(E) 5. Living with alcoholic, active alcoholic is successfully working recovery 100%, reconciled, back together, everything great - no relapse, alcohol-free! (least common)
----
I reworded some of them a bit to make it clear and I used the order a couple of the long-timers above stated for commonalities as I agree...These seem to be the rankings among the community in this forum that we see and I'm pretty sure most of the people posting threads here fit into one of the 5.
The eye-opening understanding here is to see that E5 is the most rare no matter how you slice it.
The other crazy thing I realized is that I was a D3 for a long time too. That category may be more common than we think, but I think those are also the people who don't come back to post as much which is why it is ranked 4th. The people who weaken and let them back in which I did several times in the past. I once read here that often when someone disappears they have let the alcoholic back in with no conditions (D4) and no longer come here for support, they have just given up their own program.
This is not an exact science I realize, but seeing the patterns helps me anyway.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Originally Posted by CodeJob
Several dedicated posters here have said that recovery to the relationship takes 5 years once the sobriety sticks.
We are 5 years into this journey, meaning from the moment of awareness of addiction & entering recovery until now. For me these moments happened simultaneously because of RAH's secret drinking, for others there is probably a larger gap of time between those moments.
While he entered recovery first, he wobbled a lot more & relapsed to a lower rock bottom. He is alcohol free for close to 3 years now & yes things are great overall & improving every day (the key point, really)..... but I don't feel like #5 fits me/our situation as a label.
I'm guilty of my own relapses, which far outnumber his in every way but don't carry the same dramatic crisis moments/consequences in life - so they go largely unnoticed unless I hold myself accountable.
But he recommitted to recovery & actually WORKED it this time so we're a couple with 5 yrs recovery for me & almost 3 yrs for him, who has survived relapse & who accept that the possibility may always exist for another relapse & that we are each accountable just for Today. I realize you aren't trying to be specific.... but yeah, you kinda are just in theorizing like this, right?.... if we're really classifying we need to consider things like ACoA backgrounds, exposure to abuse & whether children are involved.
And I would say that we're just now getting to a point of really working on Us, despite the years of recovery on either side at this point. We have a long way to go with that part in a lot of ways. So far we have benefitted as a couple from our individual healing & growth but it's more of a side effect; we're just starting to really WORK on us as a couple now that we each have a better sense of who we are as individuals. We had to make sure we still LIKED each other & I needed to be able to trust at least on a basic level before we could move on to love & respect.
I think #5, as it is written, is the true Unicorn here - fully "recovered" and zero relapse, long-term, is not only the most unlikely scenario statistics-wise, but the one in which those involved don't feel the need to post here. I think, like CJ & Lexie pointed out, there are many shades of grey to consider.
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