I don't understand-can someone explain?

Old 08-01-2016, 01:36 PM
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I don't understand-can someone explain?

I honestly don't know much about the 12-step program. So I just need someone to explain the amends step in the program-how it actually works.

Sorry this is so long-

He told me this over the weekend:


My husband was sent to 30 day rehab while in the military. He told me he started AA. (this was back in 2000) He said he got to the amends part and he attempted 3 times to apologize and make amends with his now ex wife. She is an EXTREMELY high conflict person, always the victim, never takes responsibility for anything, etc. (To this day, she still thinks that he should have tolerated her cheating and crazy spending, and general crappy behavior because he married her and promised her til death do us part) The psychiatrist's note in his medical file states that he was concerned that his wife was the reason he was drinking so much because all she seemed interested in was whether or not he was going to remain on the antidepressants. He also noted later in the file that she threw a fit when the dr. recommended taking him off the pills he was on and put him on something else because he appeared to be like a "zombie" on the medication. She then left when the doctor changed his medication to something that allowed him to be more "normal".

He said every time he tried to talk to her and make his amends the calls consisted of her screaming, yelling, telling him he was a horrible person, she does not forgive him, etc. When he would hang up, his sponsor would ask him how he felt and he would tell him the truth -more angry than before. He said his sponsor told him he can't move on in the process until he lets go of his anger toward her. How is someone supposed to feel when someone treats them like that?

I feel that is an unfair expectation. You can't reason with someone like that and I also feel like you can't make someone forgive you. I never met this sponsor so I'm not sure if this is what he actually said to my husband or this is his perception of how that particular step works. This is the reason he has been avoiding AA. He said he does not feel like he should have to apologize to her anymore than he already has. I think this is a stupid reason for him to avoid AA. I feel like there has to be a work around for dealing with psychos AND they haven't been married in almost 15 years. Is it reasonable to say he shouldn't have anything to apologize to her for now?

Is that how it works? He has to let go of his anger toward her before he can move on?
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:24 PM
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Something tells me there may be more to this story than you know concerning his exwife. I am Speaking from experience. Have you ever spoken to her?
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilro View Post
Something tells me there may be more to this story than you know concerning his exwife. I am Speaking from experience. Have you ever spoken to her?
Unfortunately I have. I have a very long list of crazy crap but I'll spare you and give you a few examples of her crazy.

When we first got married she walked into my home and started screaming at my husband because he posted a picture on social media of me, him and my stepson at the aquarium. Told him she expected me to leave the house whenever their son was there. When he told her to leave she refused. I told her as the property owner I'm telling you to leave or I'll have you removed. She resorted to some super fun name calling but left when I called the police.

When my son was born prematurely she told me she hoped he died.

Most recently she told me I was stupid c u next Tuesday because she figured out we go to the same hair dresser. Not sure why that's a problem. I've known my hair dresser since high school.

her crazy is so bad the judge had them communicating by email only for awhile.

You can also google golden uterus- that's her.
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:50 PM
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It's my understanding, first of all, that "amends" and "apologies" are not the same thing.

Secondly, it is also my understanding that the amend-ee is NOT obligated to accept the amends, but at the same time, the amend-er is not even required to contact the amend-ee if to do so would result in a bad situation. I am confused as to why your AH would have contacted her at all, since he would likely know this would NOT be a productive discussion, and I'm even more confused as to why he'd contact her MORE than once when it was clear that talking to her was not going to be productive.

It also sounds fishy that his sponsor would tell him he "can't move on in the process" until he makes a "successful" amend to her...the 12 Steps are not a checklist that a person "graduates" from once they've crossed off each item. I don't think anyone here would disagree that letting go of anger is part of recovery, but not in the sense that I'm reading about it in your post.

To me, this sounds like a bit of "creative re-telling" is going on, regardless of the craziness of X-wife.
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:52 PM
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Yes, what honeypig just said. 100%
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:59 PM
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That's what I was trying to figure out. I completely believe whole heartedly that she is a whole bag of crazy and angry. It just seemed so odd that there didn't seem to be some sort of way around dealing with her. Because I can't imagine that contact with her was helpful to his recovery in any way. Especially since the psychiatrist said husbands issues with her behavior could be contributing to his alcohol use. (Read it in his file myself-I have his medical file from the military)

So even if you think you wronged someone you don't have to contact them?
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Old 08-01-2016, 03:06 PM
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This article might help:

https://www.recoveryranch.com/articl...ork-step-nine/

Are you familiar w/the 12 Steps and what each one really means? If not, it might not be a bad idea to do some reading. The steps for Alanon folks are derived directly from the 12 Steps of AA, so there would likely be something useful there for you too.
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Old 08-01-2016, 03:07 PM
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alwayscovering...it sounds to me like he is using his ex wife as a convenient excuse to avoid AA....
There are as many excuses for alco holics to avoid AA as there are
b lades of grass ...but, I do think that this shows some creativity...."I can't go to AA because my ex-wife is crazy".......LOL....

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Old 08-01-2016, 03:10 PM
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There is a step in AA where you try to make amends and forgiveness. This is an important step because so much emotional feelings of shame and guilt is associated with the behaviour of drinking.

My AH is doing the AA program and a lot of his drinking has been triggered by his emotional relationship with his mother. He hasn't got to the step of trying to make amends with his mother but this is something that he eventually will need to do to find a peaceful place since his mother is such an important part of his life....but also has the power to cause such emotional and painful feelings to arise. Again, knowing his mother...she isn't the type of person that will give him the emotional warmth and comfort he needs if and when he gets to that step with her.

It seems that your husband understands that his ex wife holds a lot of power on his past and present emotions which contributed to negative feelings inside that propelled him to drink. Your husband was married to her for 15 years. She touched his life immensely over those years whether it was mainly negatively or not. He needs to find a way to let go of all that anger and negative feelings so that he can find more peace and happiness in himself.
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Old 08-01-2016, 03:42 PM
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Sounds like he's filled with excuses for not going to AA. Possible a relapse in the works.
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Old 08-01-2016, 03:49 PM
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Thank you all. I felt ill equipped to have that conversation. Although I imagine even if I had understood all the steps, I'm a logical person and I have already figured out that doesn't work. Throughout the whole thing I kept saying that doesn't make sense. Why would they force you to contact someone like that? Or make it a requirement to get an "I accept your apology" from that kind of person. I agree he needs to let it go but for the simple fact you shouldn't hold on to anger. It destroys your insides.
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Old 08-01-2016, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by atalose View Post
Sounds like he's filled with excuses for not going to AA. Possible a relapse in the works.
Oh as soon as he's done with being on call I'm certain of it.
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Old 08-01-2016, 04:04 PM
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alwayscovering.....as tempting as it is...especially when they are saying illogical or stupid things....it is of no benefit to get drug into a debate with them about treatment or recovery.....
fjirst of all, you can never "win" the debate....and, it just drives you krazy...lol....

His treatment, recovery, etc. is on his side of the street ...he has control over it...and, you don't.
What you can, and , have to do, is to establish your own boundaries of what you are willing to live with or not......
He has lots of people who are there to help HIM......

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Old 08-01-2016, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by alwayscovering View Post
Thank you all. I felt ill equipped to have that conversation. Although I imagine even if I had understood all the steps, I'm a logical person and I have already figured out that doesn't work. Throughout the whole thing I kept saying that doesn't make sense. Why would they force you to contact someone like that? Or make it a requirement to get an "I accept your apology" from that kind of person. I agree he needs to let it go but for the simple fact you shouldn't hold on to anger. It destroys your insides.
ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE in the big book of AA, which is where the program is laid out for AA, does is say its a requirement to get an " i accept your apology."
it even sasy, right in step 9,
EXCEPT WHEN TO DO SO WOULD INJURE THEM OR OTHERS

pretty logical that that is an amends that i wouldnt make f2f.
but there are living amends.

its about sweeping off my side of the street.
if the other person doesnt accept my AMENDS, thats on them.


but thats about him.

how about you? why are you trying to say whats right and what isnt with HIS amends?
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Old 08-01-2016, 07:22 PM
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I agree on the ammends does not require her to forgive. Its supposed to be about him recognizing his part. BUT sponsors can do anything they want and might not allow him to move forward under their guide. He could get a new sponsor if its his only issue with the program. Sponsors have been known to have some "interesting" ideas. They are just regular people with their own interpretation of things.
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Old 08-01-2016, 07:33 PM
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In letting go of "anger" we are really letting go of a resentment.

Resentments are our number one offender and can lead us to relapse. It is up to us and working the steps where we see our part in any resentment.

There is more to this, but I kind of agree with the sponsor ("He said his sponsor told him he can't move on in the process until he lets go of his anger toward her." -this is part of the 4-7th steps), although I would never have attempted an amends with someone who is still that angry with ME.

An amends is about making things right for the other person. It has nothing to do with the other person forgiving us.

Sometimes it's about us and just not drinking.

Working the steps with a sponsor who understands those steps helps. Something in this story doesn't sit right. My sponsor wouldn't advise making amends to an ex who still holds much hostility towards me. We don't make amends in this manner if it will bother a person this much.

His staying sober and giving himself a lot of sober time will help him see if and when an amends can happen.

Again, letting go of anger or a resentment doesn't involve anyone but the alcoholic and their higher power (along with working those steps with a sponsor, or guide, who is to help them work the steps properly).

Sounds like hubby is giving a (in my opinion) reason NOT to attend AA or to recover. Not sure if he's worked his 4th step well enough to be humbled to continue with the other steps. Just my opinion, take it or leave it alone.

p.s. if he's worked the first 4 steps, he would know that no one makes us drink, we have a brain/body condition (The Doctor's Opinion) and it's just how our minds work.....

Sent with Love and hugs,
~SB
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Old 08-01-2016, 08:18 PM
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So he is supposed to keep calling her until she accepts his apology? That's absurd.

If he is telling the truth then he probably needs to exit that sponsor and find another. No reason not to go to AA.
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Old 08-01-2016, 08:32 PM
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My limited comprehension of our terrible relations with others is that we tend to resentfully focus on the other guy's wrongdoings in order to smokescreen, excuse, justify, blame, minimize, deny or forget our own.

Once I saw my part in things -- going back through my whole life, I became STUNNED by the years spent in what was now clear to me - delusion, deception, useless war, argument (justifications) and childish nonsense. I became OVERWHELMED with general amnesty - of course!!! for everyone - like I saw we all were largely suffering from the same fears. I was freed to grok the line in the book 'see them as perhaps spiritually sick (just like us) and ask 'god' whether we believe there is one or not to show us how to be helpful or at least kindly and tolerant'. Prudence and careful timing are always advisable as is consultation of our intentions with others who may be affected, and those we trust for advice and guidance.

Whole different ballgame, we have done our share of much we oughtn't have, failed to do what we ought to have, and been simply ignorant of many better possibilities. Certainly, where we have contributed to other's unhappiness in some way, we can begin to use our imagination to see whether we can repair with some happiness or peace or understanding or...well...frankly I'm not too well versed in these 'ways of the force' yet enough to elaborate lol!

But our own fears are at the root, once seen, and our blaming antics, it all becomes quite indescribably laughable, all the bs, and energies once locked in combat become available for happy creative fun and purposeful living. Drink troubles disappear and we find ourselves possessed with a sober mind and spirit we didn't know possible, and very close to whole.

Nobody has to swallow all of it right away. Simple willingness - real willingness - to go through with it when it becomes clear is plenty, and MANY of us have skimped HEAVILY on practical and forthright amends and the 'god of soberness' doesn't seem to be as hard on us as we can get on ourselves at times.

Alimony disputes...custody battles...prison...personal slights...debts owed...blech. We just have to be willing to ignore their side and repair ours, once that is in place wonderful things can come. My ex's ex's new mate always does our laundry for us when we pass thru...like one big loose family, plenty nuff goodwill. Beats worrying about poison in the drink or barns blazing...

Very hard to put ourselves in the other guy's shoes to see how we would like it...but it must be done. Reliance will go on our creator, not expecting anybody else to 'do the right thing'...

If our conduct continues to hurt others and we are not sorry , we will drink.

Oh ya and we are not to be 'servile or scraping' either or crawling begging for forgiveness. We are standing on our own two feet for a change...Not asking for anything - there to see where we can GIVE for a change lol. Cheers!
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:23 AM
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Here is an article about making amends that seems to lay things out nicely:

Making Amends in Your Steps to Recovery | Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation
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Old 08-02-2016, 07:50 AM
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after getting everyone's input, I figure that this must be his understanding of how that particular step works. I'm hesitant to say the sponsor didn't know what he was doing or was doing his own thing since I don't know this person.

I really think he needs to talk to his counselor about his resentment towards her. it'll never be over. Even after he ages out and is an adult. She does messed up crap to my stepson and it makes my husband angry. It makes me angry too but I get mad, have my moment and then let it go. He doesn't know how to do that.
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