question on what is required to meet alcoholic diagnosis
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
question on what is required to meet alcoholic diagnosis
Maybe I should ask this go a different group but some of you must have asked his question before?
My husband is in rehab and hes there because of cocaine mostly but when using that he also drinks heavily. Without the cocaine he has managed has alcohol and not had problems. But with cocaine he drinks in excess to what Id call an alcoholic level where after I moved out cans and bottles were everywhere and he stunk of the stuff.
His rehab has him involved in both AA and NA because of the two drugs so he can see both sides and admit both and how he must be sober from both.
He says he isnt an alcoholic. He says he has proven that be drinking normally as long as cocaine isnt involved. When asked if he drank more prior to beginning the drugs his counselor said he admitted yes.
I feel he needs to be off both. But I dont really think he is a classic alcoholic. He says they tell him if he had no access to drugs the alcohol would become his drug. He s splitting hair s.
All I see mentioned here is alcoholics. But I know alcohol a users outnumber alcoholics in reality. Does that group need the same program an alcoholic does. Do you consider them only high bottom alcoholics at he moment.
My husband is in rehab and hes there because of cocaine mostly but when using that he also drinks heavily. Without the cocaine he has managed has alcohol and not had problems. But with cocaine he drinks in excess to what Id call an alcoholic level where after I moved out cans and bottles were everywhere and he stunk of the stuff.
His rehab has him involved in both AA and NA because of the two drugs so he can see both sides and admit both and how he must be sober from both.
He says he isnt an alcoholic. He says he has proven that be drinking normally as long as cocaine isnt involved. When asked if he drank more prior to beginning the drugs his counselor said he admitted yes.
I feel he needs to be off both. But I dont really think he is a classic alcoholic. He says they tell him if he had no access to drugs the alcohol would become his drug. He s splitting hair s.
All I see mentioned here is alcoholics. But I know alcohol a users outnumber alcoholics in reality. Does that group need the same program an alcoholic does. Do you consider them only high bottom alcoholics at he moment.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
And when I went t visit yesterday I was told his visitation priveldges were taken away because he was behind in his assignments. I said I drive all the way out andi needed him to sign some forms from his attorney. True. So we were able to see each other for a few minutes alone and then only with the counselor present. He told them he is trying to switch rehabs and the counselor said doesnt matter where you go, you will find yourself there. He wishes him well but says if he is only leaving because he thinks it will be easier then it proves his addictive voice is hard at work. And he has to fight it and can only do that when he learns to trust those who have gone before him and can lead him out
No word back from his attorney yet on if its even been approved.
No word back from his attorney yet on if its even been approved.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Alcoholics are advised to avoid mind-altering drugs; drug addicts are advised to avoid alcohol. Either one is likely to cause either a relapse into the "primary" addiction or is likely to result in a new addiction to something else.
So the point is, it really doesn't matter. Most people who abuse both drugs and alcohol gravitate naturally more to one group or the other as being more reflective of their own experience, but some maintain membership, and identify closely with, both groups.
How about if you let him and his treatment professionals decide what's in his best interest? It's not your place to talk him into treatment he doesn't think he needs.
So the point is, it really doesn't matter. Most people who abuse both drugs and alcohol gravitate naturally more to one group or the other as being more reflective of their own experience, but some maintain membership, and identify closely with, both groups.
How about if you let him and his treatment professionals decide what's in his best interest? It's not your place to talk him into treatment he doesn't think he needs.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
IMO, trying to differentiate an alcohol abuser from an alcoholic is playing a game of semantics. If consumption in any volume or combination is causing difficulties in life it doesn't matter which label you use to describe it. (that includes high functioning/high bottom, etc.)
Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by FireSprite 
IMO, trying to differentiate an alcohol abuser from an alcoholic is playing a game of semantics. If consumption in any volume or combination is causing difficulties in life it doesn't matter which label you use to describe it. (that includes high functioning/high bottom, etc.)
I understand this scenario as such; if the drinking is causing a problem and the person cannot or will not stop then it doesn't matter what the label is, the person has a drinking problem. If they "only" drink a few beers a day but needs them to relax, the person has a drinking problem. If the person cannot function in everyday life without the assistance of some sort of substance, they have a problem. You don't need to get blackout everyday to have a problem. I think it's easy to get hung up on labels because it's so hard to accept that someone you love has a problem. It's easy to rationalize away if the person is drinking 2 drinks a day and 3 is "when there is a problem". You have to look at the big picture... what role is alcohol playing in that person's life? How is it affecting them? How are they using alcohol?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: OKC OK
Posts: 414
Originally Posted by Expanding
I agree. I think when people are able to say, "well I'm an alcohol abuser not an alcoholic" they feel it gives them some sort of pass for their behavior.
I understand this scenario as such; if the drinking is causing a problem and the person cannot or will not stop then it doesn't matter what the label is, the person has a drinking problem. If they "only" drink a few beers a day but needs them to relax, the person has a drinking problem. If the person cannot function in everyday life without the assistance of some sort of substance, they have a problem. You don't need to get blackout everyday to have a problem. I think it's easy to get hung up on labels because it's so hard to accept that someone you love has a problem. It's easy to rationalize away if the person is drinking 2 drinks a day and 3 is "when there is a problem". You have to look at the big picture... what role is alcohol playing in that person's life? How is it affecting them? How are they using alcohol?
I understand this scenario as such; if the drinking is causing a problem and the person cannot or will not stop then it doesn't matter what the label is, the person has a drinking problem. If they "only" drink a few beers a day but needs them to relax, the person has a drinking problem. If the person cannot function in everyday life without the assistance of some sort of substance, they have a problem. You don't need to get blackout everyday to have a problem. I think it's easy to get hung up on labels because it's so hard to accept that someone you love has a problem. It's easy to rationalize away if the person is drinking 2 drinks a day and 3 is "when there is a problem". You have to look at the big picture... what role is alcohol playing in that person's life? How is it affecting them? How are they using alcohol?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,572
My brother had the drug abuser vs. addict conversation with his addiction therapist many years ago, and the ONLY reason it was relevant (and the therapist made this very, very clear) was the kind of detox treatment he may need. The therapist determined that because my brother was not (yet) a full-blown drug addict, his detox needs (close medical supervision, inpatient supervision, etc.) may not be as hard core as someone with a severe physical dependence on their drug of choice. That was IT. Otherwise, the addict/abuser distinction is just splitting hairs--two sides of the same coin. My own opinion is that an abuser of drugs or alcohol will become an addict eventually. Substance "abuse" is just another stage of addiction, in the long run.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
Well first off I'm not trying to force a label on him or force him to do treatment in a boxed up kind f way. His current rehab is doing that and I dont think his counselor who has no medical background is even capable of making such a decision.
I want him someplace where its not about labels or programs but about his own unique needs and solutions. Legally I'm helping him fight for this right so he can choose.
I also questioned it because I do have an opinion and I think alcohol abusers need something different group than the pure alcoholic. I keep reading here and I have trouble believing everyone is a alcoholic vs someone abusing who my not be fixed for life in this pattern but I never see it discussed. Its always like sure hes an alcoholic and bam bam bam, this is the path he will
i do think is relevant to be able to look clearly at our family member. Sure on one hand it doesnt matter because how it affects us is all that matters but it does matter in terms of treatment recommendations I think
I want him someplace where its not about labels or programs but about his own unique needs and solutions. Legally I'm helping him fight for this right so he can choose.
I also questioned it because I do have an opinion and I think alcohol abusers need something different group than the pure alcoholic. I keep reading here and I have trouble believing everyone is a alcoholic vs someone abusing who my not be fixed for life in this pattern but I never see it discussed. Its always like sure hes an alcoholic and bam bam bam, this is the path he will
i do think is relevant to be able to look clearly at our family member. Sure on one hand it doesnt matter because how it affects us is all that matters but it does matter in terms of treatment recommendations I think
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,308
Sad to say the medical community is way behind on addiction awareness / treatments / etc. Treatment needs all depends on the patient. Your husband may not drink alcoholically now, but in the absence of cocaine maybe he would drink more. Cross- addictions are very real - you'll see many a problem drinker quit booze but then pick up gambling, or pot, or whatever. It's safe to bet that if your husband has a drug problem that alcohol is not good for him either - regardless of what you call it.
I agree you are possibly over involving yourself - you are married to him, you are obviously not without bias. What does it matter what it is called?
I agree you are possibly over involving yourself - you are married to him, you are obviously not without bias. What does it matter what it is called?
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Look, you can search all over the Internet and find a zillion theories, among respected professionals, about the best way to treat an alcohol or drug problem. How can you, as an untrained layperson, possible hope to know what is the best treatment for him, when even the professionals wildly disagree?
I think you are wasting your time and energy trying to manage his treatment. Not only that, you are feeding into his list of potential excuses for not applying himself to whatever program he is fortunate enough to be offered ("Oh, well, I couldn't get sober because they used X approach when Y would have been more effective.").
Most recovered alcoholics and addicts I've met in my life got clean/sober sitting in a church basement with a bunch of other people in the same boat, and it cost them all of a dollar a meeting (if they had that).
I think you are wasting your time and energy trying to manage his treatment. Not only that, you are feeding into his list of potential excuses for not applying himself to whatever program he is fortunate enough to be offered ("Oh, well, I couldn't get sober because they used X approach when Y would have been more effective.").
Most recovered alcoholics and addicts I've met in my life got clean/sober sitting in a church basement with a bunch of other people in the same boat, and it cost them all of a dollar a meeting (if they had that).
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
I want him someplace where its not about labels or programs but about his own unique needs and solutions.
Believing this way is called "terminal uniqueness." Google it if you want to know more about it and the problems it causes.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
Posts: 4,215
In recovery there is something called "terminal uniqueness"...in essence it's a rationalization by the addict/alcoholic that their situation is unique and so particularly difficult that they NEED to drink/use and therefore recovery programs are too generic to apply to them.
You might want to research that a bit? It sounds like your husband has got that one going and has maybe convinced you, as well?
ETA: Or what Honeypig just said!
You might want to research that a bit? It sounds like your husband has got that one going and has maybe convinced you, as well?
ETA: Or what Honeypig just said!
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
aliciagr.....one reason that you don't see "alcohol abusers" discussed. much, on this forum is that the majority of people who come to this forum is because their lives have come to a crisis point due to a friend or loved ones's using.....
Marriages on the rocks, children damaged, families fractured, employment lost, health compromised, etc.......
So, those coming here for help are.usually. so desperate for help that there is little time spent trying to pinpoint at what juncture abuse flips over into frank addiction.....for their loved one....the story has already been told......
dandylion
Marriages on the rocks, children damaged, families fractured, employment lost, health compromised, etc.......
So, those coming here for help are.usually. so desperate for help that there is little time spent trying to pinpoint at what juncture abuse flips over into frank addiction.....for their loved one....the story has already been told......
dandylion
Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by dandylion
aliciagr.....one reason that you don't see "alcohol abusers" discussed. much, on this forum is that the majority of people who come to this forum is because their lives have come to a crisis point due to a friend or loved ones's using.....
Marriages on the rocks, children damaged, families fractured, employment lost, health compromised, etc.......
So, those coming here for help are.usually. so desperate for help that there is little time spent trying to pinpoint at what juncture abuse flips over into frank addiction.....for their loved one....the story has already been told......
dandylion
Marriages on the rocks, children damaged, families fractured, employment lost, health compromised, etc.......
So, those coming here for help are.usually. so desperate for help that there is little time spent trying to pinpoint at what juncture abuse flips over into frank addiction.....for their loved one....the story has already been told......
dandylion
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
Thank you for this explanation. I do see how most situations are data crisis point, very true. And its about how to protect self.
Originally Posted by dandylion
aliciagr.....one reason that you don't see "alcohol abusers" discussed. much, on this forum is that the majority of people who come to this forum is because their lives have come to a crisis point due to a friend or loved ones's using.....
Marriages on the rocks, children damaged, families fractured, employment lost, health compromised, etc.......
So, those coming here for help are.usually. so desperate for help that there is little time spent trying to pinpoint at what juncture abuse flips over into frank addiction.....for their loved one....the story has already been told......
dandylion
Marriages on the rocks, children damaged, families fractured, employment lost, health compromised, etc.......
So, those coming here for help are.usually. so desperate for help that there is little time spent trying to pinpoint at what juncture abuse flips over into frank addiction.....for their loved one....the story has already been told......
dandylion
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
Yes I agree it doesnt matter when your looking at how the person is affecting your life and what you do about your life choices.
And to me with my decisions it doesnt matter either
I do think I'm thinking more about treatment which isnt much discussed here. I said it might not be the right place to ask the question but then I know other family must ask questions like that at some point.
I dont really follow the guides of what a program says is the way to look at things. I come at he them from many angles.
And to me with my decisions it doesnt matter either
I do think I'm thinking more about treatment which isnt much discussed here. I said it might not be the right place to ask the question but then I know other family must ask questions like that at some point.
I dont really follow the guides of what a program says is the way to look at things. I come at he them from many angles.
Originally Posted by Expanding
Yes! Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter. There is a problem and something needs to be done. If your life falls apart because your partner is an alcohol abuser instead of an alcoholic, what does that change?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by aliciagr
Well first off I'm not trying to force a label on him or force him to do treatment in a boxed up kind f way. His current rehab is doing that and I dont think his counselor who has no medical background is even capable of making such a decision.
i had to do a weekend stint, court ordered, doing an alcoholism/addiction gig. hour long "classes" on alcoholism and addiction for 2 days given by 2 people- one with a masters in alcohol stuff but no personal history of self alcoholism or addiction. the other a full blown junky and drunk, clean and sober many years.
none of the 40 people there paid attention orto the one with the masters.
when the other spoke, everyone listened and asked lots of questions.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 328
Big Book
Chapter 5
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Unless your AH truly seeks recovery, it doesn't matter what his "drug of choice" is. There is no easier, softer way.
Chapter 5
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Unless your AH truly seeks recovery, it doesn't matter what his "drug of choice" is. There is no easier, softer way.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
Personal stories are usually easier to absorb if thats what you mean. But they are just one persons account, right? I know what you mean though.
I'm not sure about harder or softer. Just not everything is identical or needs to be. I'm hopeful he will find what works for him just as some of you kind enough to post seem to have found what works for you.
I guess regardless if he is an abuser of alcohol or something else when he embraces change then hopefully it will work itself out. I'll try not to worry about if he is or isnt for now. He has a long way to go either way.
I'm not sure about harder or softer. Just not everything is identical or needs to be. I'm hopeful he will find what works for him just as some of you kind enough to post seem to have found what works for you.
I guess regardless if he is an abuser of alcohol or something else when he embraces change then hopefully it will work itself out. I'll try not to worry about if he is or isnt for now. He has a long way to go either way.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
