The crazy destruction addiction brings
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Originally Posted by atalose 
What relapse prevention program was he working between his last rehab stint and this current relapse?
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I don't disagree that if his insurance will pick up the bill, that he should utilize a rehab that seems more suitable and has a good reputation. Please check that out as well. I know when my XAH was going into rehab I had called a bunch. They definitely call and try to influence you to think they are the best option.
Wow...reflecting back, I would have done it all differently. That time has passed.
I hope this is more successful than his past options and that you have some peace soon.
Wow...reflecting back, I would have done it all differently. That time has passed.
I hope this is more successful than his past options and that you have some peace soon.
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this feeling like no one gives a crap except to see my husband punished and brought t his knees
It's not a lack of compassion for him that you are "hearing" from us, Alicia, it's that many of us have learned that you can be compassionate without enabling or enmeshing. It IS compassionate to let a grown, adult man have the dignity of dealing with the consequences of his own decisions.
We are simply interpreting the red flags that we see in your posts, having experienced them first-hand ourselves. That's all. Trust me - we'd all LOVE for you to come back & post a wonderful success story about how everything changed 180 degrees from where it's been.... but the FACTS are that it's unlikely based on what you've shared.
Does your therapist have much experience with addiction? This:
The therapist I saw said people dont get treatment when they first need it because they are often in denial and thats caused by the way the drugs and alcohol affect thinking and rationalizing. She says thats why sometimes people have to be forced into rehab where they are made to stay away from drugs and alcohol and begin to think sober.
But even if this were true, doesn't that mean exactly the same as what we've been saying anyway? That ANY facility could be effective simply by forcing a person to stay sober long enough to begin to think sober? If this were true - no one would ever relapse from a sober state, would they? Do you see what I'm saying?
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I don't think anyone can predict when an alcoholic will have moments of clarity when they will see the reality of their disease....and decide to reach for sobriety...
We can talk from statistical sense and probability sense.....but to be able to predict with precision and absol ute confidence about if and when, and under what circumstance.....No.....
dandylion
We can talk from statistical sense and probability sense.....but to be able to predict with precision and absol ute confidence about if and when, and under what circumstance.....No.....
dandylion
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Yes the therapist I'm seeing specializes and Ive also seen one in he past. I'm.not sure of your resources but its not recommended for people to avoid exposure to treatment. Like other medical problems there are guidelines any doctor who specializes can share with you I believe.
But your right you can't force a person to never use again and sometimes a person can't even force a himself to never use again its less about abstinance for life than it is about long term management with the hopes of an overall healthy happy productive.life. like I said I'm not blaming him for relapsing and understand he could again once he recovers from this. The hope is to minimize the potential for future problems by building him up . Not me building him up, but through the treatment he gets.
But your right you can't force a person to never use again and sometimes a person can't even force a himself to never use again its less about abstinance for life than it is about long term management with the hopes of an overall healthy happy productive.life. like I said I'm not blaming him for relapsing and understand he could again once he recovers from this. The hope is to minimize the potential for future problems by building him up . Not me building him up, but through the treatment he gets.
Originally Posted by FireSprite
Not at all true. But we DO typically expect someone who breaks laws to be held accountable. We do want to see an abuser held accountable for the hurt that they cause. That's not unreasonable.
It's not a lack of compassion for him that you are "hearing" from us, Alicia, it's that many of us have learned that you can be compassionate without enabling or enmeshing. It IS compassionate to let a grown, adult man have the dignity of dealing with the consequences of his own decisions.
We are simply interpreting the red flags that we see in your posts, having experienced them first-hand ourselves. That's all. Trust me - we'd all LOVE for you to come back & post a wonderful success story about how everything changed 180 degrees from where it's been.... but the FACTS are that it's unlikely based on what you've shared.
Does your therapist have much experience with addiction? This:
is the direct opposite of everything I've read or learned about addiction from every source, in every program, from every addict themselves. Every single thing I've EVER read says that forcing someone to get sober does not force them to STAY sober, which is what it sounds like you are actually experiencing.......
But even if this were true, doesn't that mean exactly the same as what we've been saying anyway? That ANY facility could be effective simply by forcing a person to stay sober long enough to begin to think sober? If this were true - no one would ever relapse from a sober state, would they? Do you see what I'm saying?
It's not a lack of compassion for him that you are "hearing" from us, Alicia, it's that many of us have learned that you can be compassionate without enabling or enmeshing. It IS compassionate to let a grown, adult man have the dignity of dealing with the consequences of his own decisions.
We are simply interpreting the red flags that we see in your posts, having experienced them first-hand ourselves. That's all. Trust me - we'd all LOVE for you to come back & post a wonderful success story about how everything changed 180 degrees from where it's been.... but the FACTS are that it's unlikely based on what you've shared.
Does your therapist have much experience with addiction? This:
is the direct opposite of everything I've read or learned about addiction from every source, in every program, from every addict themselves. Every single thing I've EVER read says that forcing someone to get sober does not force them to STAY sober, which is what it sounds like you are actually experiencing.......
But even if this were true, doesn't that mean exactly the same as what we've been saying anyway? That ANY facility could be effective simply by forcing a person to stay sober long enough to begin to think sober? If this were true - no one would ever relapse from a sober state, would they? Do you see what I'm saying?
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Its not that I don't feel compassion for your husband, I do feel compassion for any person, including him, who deals with the monkey of addiction. Really do, it sucks, and I hate it.
His other issues of sexual assault, pushing his father, and stealing I don't attribute to his drug use. I know you do, and we can agree to disagree. I have no compassion, not one hair for people who assault other people. Not one Nth of compassion for someone who sexually assaults another - I don't care if he snorted a kilo and drank a keg. Do you think I have compassion for a drunk driver that kills another? Nope. I know alcoholics that adamantly will NOT drive, I gotta respect that, and it goes to prove that inebriation does not forego the ability to do what is right, or observe there are legal consequence to action.
If your husband complies with treatment, grabs a hold of it and runs with it, addresses his abuse issues and works on those - I will have a hell of lot of respect for him - A HELL OF A LOT. I hope he does. I too would love to read a success story here.
His other issues of sexual assault, pushing his father, and stealing I don't attribute to his drug use. I know you do, and we can agree to disagree. I have no compassion, not one hair for people who assault other people. Not one Nth of compassion for someone who sexually assaults another - I don't care if he snorted a kilo and drank a keg. Do you think I have compassion for a drunk driver that kills another? Nope. I know alcoholics that adamantly will NOT drive, I gotta respect that, and it goes to prove that inebriation does not forego the ability to do what is right, or observe there are legal consequence to action.
If your husband complies with treatment, grabs a hold of it and runs with it, addresses his abuse issues and works on those - I will have a hell of lot of respect for him - A HELL OF A LOT. I hope he does. I too would love to read a success story here.
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I feel compassion for any one who is affected by the illness of addiction and that transfers to the addict and significant others
I have been the drunkard and also the partner
Sometimes the water needs to get hot for the addict to work at recovery
Kind of like a teabag
The spouse also needs help and I'm glad you are getting it
Sometimes the addict needs to feel the consequences of their addiction to make change
And sometimes they don't like it
Al anon is great for the partner
You can still have a life if you take care of yourself and let him find his own way
Peace
V
I have been the drunkard and also the partner
Sometimes the water needs to get hot for the addict to work at recovery
Kind of like a teabag
The spouse also needs help and I'm glad you are getting it
Sometimes the addict needs to feel the consequences of their addiction to make change
And sometimes they don't like it
Al anon is great for the partner
You can still have a life if you take care of yourself and let him find his own way
Peace
V
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Thanks for for these follow up comments.
I wish a little Id not mentioned how he and his parents argued and he shoved because even his parents didnt consider him as being violent or abusive.
Ive given it a lot of thought and will ask your thoughts.Stuff like this is subjective I think.
What if a drunken husband was ytelling at his wife, angry body language and ended up right in her face screaming but not touching her. She had no way around to avoid so she shoved him and yells back and leaves as fast as she can.
I dont think she would be the abuser in that case. And even if you say the man was bigger and Intimidating what if it were two sisters same scenerio.
I can't say my husband was abusive when even his parets explained the situation like I just described.
I just need to be careful to see clearly not assume he was a fault because he was the one under the influence .
I wish a little Id not mentioned how he and his parents argued and he shoved because even his parents didnt consider him as being violent or abusive.
Ive given it a lot of thought and will ask your thoughts.Stuff like this is subjective I think.
What if a drunken husband was ytelling at his wife, angry body language and ended up right in her face screaming but not touching her. She had no way around to avoid so she shoved him and yells back and leaves as fast as she can.
I dont think she would be the abuser in that case. And even if you say the man was bigger and Intimidating what if it were two sisters same scenerio.
I can't say my husband was abusive when even his parets explained the situation like I just described.
I just need to be careful to see clearly not assume he was a fault because he was the one under the influence .
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Alicia.....can't you see that it id difficult to explain the gestalt of a situation with just a keyboard on the internet? Unless there are eyewitnesses to an event....and even at that...it is well known by police that every witness will have their own interpretation of the same event!
How bout this angle on the subject.....it is a negative thing for any member of a family to put their hands on another member in force...even the most gentle....
even shoving is an aggressive act....it is not good communication to a loved one. With the "drinking defence"...that implies that the person is disinhibited m ore than usual...but, it is still not good...and, it is still not o.k. It is disrespectful whether a parent does it to a child or a child does it to a parent.
Absolute self defense is another argument....or trying to gain freedom from imprisonment tis another argument.....
But, otherwise, nobody should be shoving, pushing, slapping, etc. another family member....
Now, I am not trying to argue with you...you feel the way you feel and see things the way you see them.....
I consider this just a discourse in how family members should treat each other.....
dandylion
***I believe that law enforcement tends to look at "who struck who , first".....and, they apply their legal terminology to that......I believe that they have a whole handbook of terminology...lol.....
How bout this angle on the subject.....it is a negative thing for any member of a family to put their hands on another member in force...even the most gentle....
even shoving is an aggressive act....it is not good communication to a loved one. With the "drinking defence"...that implies that the person is disinhibited m ore than usual...but, it is still not good...and, it is still not o.k. It is disrespectful whether a parent does it to a child or a child does it to a parent.
Absolute self defense is another argument....or trying to gain freedom from imprisonment tis another argument.....
But, otherwise, nobody should be shoving, pushing, slapping, etc. another family member....
Now, I am not trying to argue with you...you feel the way you feel and see things the way you see them.....
I consider this just a discourse in how family members should treat each other.....
dandylion
***I believe that law enforcement tends to look at "who struck who , first".....and, they apply their legal terminology to that......I believe that they have a whole handbook of terminology...lol.....
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Originally Posted by aliciagr
What if a drunken husband was ytelling at his wife, angry body language and ended up right in her face screaming but not touching her. She had no way around to avoid so she shoved him and yells back and leaves as fast as she can. I dont think she would be the abuser in that case.
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alicia, just be careful. Perhaps I'm projecting - I've been guilty of second-guessing the physical abuse that my nanny placed on me, and so much of what you've posted brings me back to that time.
For example:
ME: She beat me up with a slipper because I didn't eat all of my sandwich at lunch.
The Other Me: Well, the slipper was rubber soled so it didn't hurt so much, and isn't she showing that she cares about my health by making sure I eat?
ME: She's poking me with needles to make sure I hurry up and eat my breakfast.
Other ME: Well if I ate faster she wouldn't have poked me. And she didn't actually punch me, and needles only hurt for a second so it isn't so bad.
ME: She ripped up my doll because I didn't eat my breakfast fast enough.
Other ME: Well she didn't actually hit me so that's not abuse. And look, she's trying to fix it. She's sorry!
ME: This woman is unpredictable when I'm alone in the room with her, and only acts nice when my parents are around.
Other ME: Sometimes she's nice when my parents aren't around, and she bought me birthday gifts, and she said that she loves me.
So throughout HS and college I actually had a congenial relationship with her. It certainly helped that once puberty hit I literally grew one foot taller than her. I also went through bouts of depression and had suicidal thoughts but I thought that was just me.
And then, as I moved away from home and started building my own life, these thoughts kept creeping into my head: "She was nice to me so she wouldn't get caught. She was nice so I would keep quiet. She wanted to hurt me, but she was careful enough not to leave marks." Maybe the fact I was no longer living in the same place in the same house gave me the distance I needed to figure things out. Maybe it was time itself. I don't know. But there got to be a point where denying myself the truth was more painful than anything else in the world.
I had to say something. Because all this second-guessing was literally driving me crazy. The second-guessing was a defense mechanism totally gone wacko. I wanted to avoid the pain that I felt by pretending it didn't even exist in the first place, by pretending that my pain didn't have any value at all. But the pain WAS part of me, and by questioning the value of that pain I inevitably questioned my own value as a human being. And that is not good.
And even when I confronted her and let the cat out of the bag it wasn't over, because some people said I was overreacting. Even my own dad saying I was being too sensitive. Even NOW I still have a hard time with this. And when I do second guess myself, I have to remind myself that NEVER in a million years would I subject my son to the same treatment. I value my own truth.
My sister, who got it even worse than me, continues to have a relationship with her. She's brought her kids over. She tells me that the abuse wasn't so bad because we deserved it. My sister would invite our cousin who sexually abused her into her home with her baby until her now ex-husband got wind of their prior relationship and kicked him out. She still has never told my parents what happened. Meanwhile, she's been dealing with some sort of substance/alcohol problem ever since high school. I think she has mentally contorted her brain to avoid the pain any which way she can.
I know that you love your husband. That is never in doubt. But I also recognize the mental gymnastics you put yourself through, so similar to what I did for the sake of my abuser, so similar to what my sister does for the sake of hers. All I can say is that there is high cost to pay when you deny the abuse that has happened to you and to others, and that denial can eat you up alive.
For example:
ME: She beat me up with a slipper because I didn't eat all of my sandwich at lunch.
The Other Me: Well, the slipper was rubber soled so it didn't hurt so much, and isn't she showing that she cares about my health by making sure I eat?
ME: She's poking me with needles to make sure I hurry up and eat my breakfast.
Other ME: Well if I ate faster she wouldn't have poked me. And she didn't actually punch me, and needles only hurt for a second so it isn't so bad.
ME: She ripped up my doll because I didn't eat my breakfast fast enough.
Other ME: Well she didn't actually hit me so that's not abuse. And look, she's trying to fix it. She's sorry!
ME: This woman is unpredictable when I'm alone in the room with her, and only acts nice when my parents are around.
Other ME: Sometimes she's nice when my parents aren't around, and she bought me birthday gifts, and she said that she loves me.
So throughout HS and college I actually had a congenial relationship with her. It certainly helped that once puberty hit I literally grew one foot taller than her. I also went through bouts of depression and had suicidal thoughts but I thought that was just me.
And then, as I moved away from home and started building my own life, these thoughts kept creeping into my head: "She was nice to me so she wouldn't get caught. She was nice so I would keep quiet. She wanted to hurt me, but she was careful enough not to leave marks." Maybe the fact I was no longer living in the same place in the same house gave me the distance I needed to figure things out. Maybe it was time itself. I don't know. But there got to be a point where denying myself the truth was more painful than anything else in the world.
I had to say something. Because all this second-guessing was literally driving me crazy. The second-guessing was a defense mechanism totally gone wacko. I wanted to avoid the pain that I felt by pretending it didn't even exist in the first place, by pretending that my pain didn't have any value at all. But the pain WAS part of me, and by questioning the value of that pain I inevitably questioned my own value as a human being. And that is not good.
And even when I confronted her and let the cat out of the bag it wasn't over, because some people said I was overreacting. Even my own dad saying I was being too sensitive. Even NOW I still have a hard time with this. And when I do second guess myself, I have to remind myself that NEVER in a million years would I subject my son to the same treatment. I value my own truth.
My sister, who got it even worse than me, continues to have a relationship with her. She's brought her kids over. She tells me that the abuse wasn't so bad because we deserved it. My sister would invite our cousin who sexually abused her into her home with her baby until her now ex-husband got wind of their prior relationship and kicked him out. She still has never told my parents what happened. Meanwhile, she's been dealing with some sort of substance/alcohol problem ever since high school. I think she has mentally contorted her brain to avoid the pain any which way she can.
I know that you love your husband. That is never in doubt. But I also recognize the mental gymnastics you put yourself through, so similar to what I did for the sake of my abuser, so similar to what my sister does for the sake of hers. All I can say is that there is high cost to pay when you deny the abuse that has happened to you and to others, and that denial can eat you up alive.
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This makes me sad. My X husband put his hands on me at the very end, the day I kicked him out. Before we had kids he would get drunk and one time threw my cell phone at me. I did not recognize it when he did that it was abuse. But boy, the day he put his hands on me and pushed me, I immediately kicked him out. That is abuse. My kids saw it. Since then, he has pushed his new wife in front of my kids.
Screaming to the point you are in someone else's face is a form of abuse. Mental abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse. Men do it to women, women do it to men, it's unacceptable either way. And him screaming at your daughter should be a HUGE red flag to you. I don't care if he is under the influence or not. Your kids are looking to you to learn how to react. If you do nothing, you teach them to do nothing.
Screaming to the point you are in someone else's face is a form of abuse. Mental abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse. Men do it to women, women do it to men, it's unacceptable either way. And him screaming at your daughter should be a HUGE red flag to you. I don't care if he is under the influence or not. Your kids are looking to you to learn how to react. If you do nothing, you teach them to do nothing.
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You can analyze and rationalize this discrete incident involving his parents until the cows come home. He has abused YOU repeatedly. It doesn't help you any to try to put the best spin possible on this one incident. What will be most helpful to YOU is to view things as they actually are, not as you'd like them to be.
As I said, the way you are thinking is very, very typical for people who have been living in abusive situations. I hope you will start to consider that maybe things are worse than you've been telling yourself they are. You don't have to agree right here and right now on this forum, but please, for your own sake, consider the possibility that this is a dangerous man who happens to have an alcohol problem that makes it all worse. The vast, vast majority of alcoholics do not physically abuse anyone, though they can be selfish, thoughtless, and impossible to live with.
As I said, the way you are thinking is very, very typical for people who have been living in abusive situations. I hope you will start to consider that maybe things are worse than you've been telling yourself they are. You don't have to agree right here and right now on this forum, but please, for your own sake, consider the possibility that this is a dangerous man who happens to have an alcohol problem that makes it all worse. The vast, vast majority of alcoholics do not physically abuse anyone, though they can be selfish, thoughtless, and impossible to live with.
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thank you PuzzledHeart for sharing. My heart hurts for what you and you sister went through. Its an eye opener reading your words and how it effected you and how suppressing feelings and.not being truthful with yourself makes it much worse.
My therapist is worried I am minimizing what happened and deflecting on other things to avoid he emotions I have he to face. She said I was right in moving out but basically Why ? Why? Why? did I make love to him so soon after just because he put out a great deal of talk, sweetness but we had.not dealt with what happened? And he had not got help and physically proved to me he was actively dealing with his issues She implied unless I fully respect myself and acknowledge my personal rights and how I have full authority over my body, my decision to love and I s got to be based on strong personal boundaries of how I'm treated. She thinks I need compete distance from him to dig into my emotions and create my strength sand then wait and see if he understand that he has to do the same thing because drugs ravaged him and he needs boundaries and to learn about why hes done all he did. She says only then can we attempt to rebuild on solid ground with mutual respect and feelings. Of control and safety again. She says.there are no shortcuts or its going to lead me to future problems.
your all right. I dont know if its what's happened, his current environment and what they are having him focus on but he is shown very little self inspectikn , nothing deep, only superficial.
No news back from the attorney. I will go visit again this weekend and have another therapy session tomorrow. I have some issues with alanon but I have gone to meetings, and I might try again this weekend. Not sure but what someone here reminded me is that I can be open and share there or not afraid to hide from what I'm going through.
My therapist is worried I am minimizing what happened and deflecting on other things to avoid he emotions I have he to face. She said I was right in moving out but basically Why ? Why? Why? did I make love to him so soon after just because he put out a great deal of talk, sweetness but we had.not dealt with what happened? And he had not got help and physically proved to me he was actively dealing with his issues She implied unless I fully respect myself and acknowledge my personal rights and how I have full authority over my body, my decision to love and I s got to be based on strong personal boundaries of how I'm treated. She thinks I need compete distance from him to dig into my emotions and create my strength sand then wait and see if he understand that he has to do the same thing because drugs ravaged him and he needs boundaries and to learn about why hes done all he did. She says only then can we attempt to rebuild on solid ground with mutual respect and feelings. Of control and safety again. She says.there are no shortcuts or its going to lead me to future problems.
your all right. I dont know if its what's happened, his current environment and what they are having him focus on but he is shown very little self inspectikn , nothing deep, only superficial.
No news back from the attorney. I will go visit again this weekend and have another therapy session tomorrow. I have some issues with alanon but I have gone to meetings, and I might try again this weekend. Not sure but what someone here reminded me is that I can be open and share there or not afraid to hide from what I'm going through.
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I think your therapist is spot on, I am glad you are going to therapy. Hugs to you. I know it's very hard. Please know, everyone here has the best intentions. You definitely do not need to sensor what you say except to just share what is safe to protect your privacy, and what you are comfortable with.
Tight hugs!
Tight hugs!
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Al-Anon is terrific in most respects, but just a cautionary note. Sometimes it's less than helpful for people who have been living with abuse. Al-Anon stresses the need for partners to see their own role in the unhealthy dynamics in alcoholic relationships. That doesn't apply in the same way to people in abusive relationships. We ALL have ways in which we can treat ourselves, and other people, better. But victims of abuse already do a lot of inappropriate self-blaming, and some of the strategies suggested in Al-Anon (detachment comes to mind) can actually be dangerous when you are still living with an abuser.
So I'm not going to say don't go to Al-Anon--you CAN be honest there, and you WILL find people who understand, but I think you are likely to get the most help from your therapist in addressing the consequences of living with abuse.
Big hugs, and I'm glad you are trying to keep an open mind and are taking some steps to take care of YOU.
So I'm not going to say don't go to Al-Anon--you CAN be honest there, and you WILL find people who understand, but I think you are likely to get the most help from your therapist in addressing the consequences of living with abuse.
Big hugs, and I'm glad you are trying to keep an open mind and are taking some steps to take care of YOU.
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