Need some ESH about my DS
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Need some ESH about my DS
So apparently last night, while he was with STBXAH, our DS (who is 6) got very emotional and upset, asking STBXAH why STBXAH and I couldn't get along to stay married. Granted, I heard about this from STBXAH who certainly ran it through his personal "everything is someone else's fault" filter, so I am taking the details of his account of the interaction with a big grain of salt. Nevertheless, DS had a similar meltdown with me several months ago, so I don't doubt that the interaction took place.
I'm trying to think through how to handle this should it come up again between me and DS. He is obviously too young to understand alcoholism, and I have no desire to trash talk his father to him, or say anything to state outright or imply that this is all STBXAH's fault. We all know that it takes two to tango, and I injected plenty of dysfunction and toxicity into the situation, too. My response in the past has always been that Mommy and Daddy just couldn't find the right ways to get along and live together. But he doesn't seem satisfied with that answer. After all, I expect HIM to behave and get along with people. He wants to know why his father and I couldn't just do the same.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
I'm trying to think through how to handle this should it come up again between me and DS. He is obviously too young to understand alcoholism, and I have no desire to trash talk his father to him, or say anything to state outright or imply that this is all STBXAH's fault. We all know that it takes two to tango, and I injected plenty of dysfunction and toxicity into the situation, too. My response in the past has always been that Mommy and Daddy just couldn't find the right ways to get along and live together. But he doesn't seem satisfied with that answer. After all, I expect HIM to behave and get along with people. He wants to know why his father and I couldn't just do the same.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
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Wisconsin, thanks for this post. I also have a 6y.o. DS who might be in the same situation at some point. And he is an ultra-sensitive kid too, so it's going to be rough.
I look forward to the responses.
I look forward to the responses.
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Wisconsin.....on amazon.com, there is a selection on books about talking to children about separation and divorce......
On DesertEyes current thread on book suggestions--there are a few books about how to talk to children about alcoholism......
Now, I, personally, have not read them (My children are grown).....but, I would think that these books would be a good source of information on this difficult subject......
dandylion
On DesertEyes current thread on book suggestions--there are a few books about how to talk to children about alcoholism......
Now, I, personally, have not read them (My children are grown).....but, I would think that these books would be a good source of information on this difficult subject......
dandylion
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I always think consulting the school counselor is a good idea, too.
And here's an analogy you might use with him. Even when you and Dad TRIED to get along, you were still both unhappy. If he had a classmate who made him feel bad, even if they weren't fighting, he wouldn't want to spend time with that person except when he had to (in class, for instance). He probably has classmates he doesn't like and doesn't like to hang out with at recess, at lunchtime, or after school. And I'm sure you don't insist that he do that. So even though they might "get along" in the sense of not yelling at each other or physically fighting, they might not want to spend time together. If they were forced to, they might be unhappy. You can also say that people change, and that sometimes a person you used to like/have fun with is no longer fun to be with, and that isn't necessarily anyone's fault--it's just that both people change and learn things about themselves and have new interests.
I hope you do find a way to talk about Dad's alcoholism at some point, though--it no doubt affects THEIR relationship, and even if you don't want to blame the divorce on it, he deserves to know the truth.
And here's an analogy you might use with him. Even when you and Dad TRIED to get along, you were still both unhappy. If he had a classmate who made him feel bad, even if they weren't fighting, he wouldn't want to spend time with that person except when he had to (in class, for instance). He probably has classmates he doesn't like and doesn't like to hang out with at recess, at lunchtime, or after school. And I'm sure you don't insist that he do that. So even though they might "get along" in the sense of not yelling at each other or physically fighting, they might not want to spend time together. If they were forced to, they might be unhappy. You can also say that people change, and that sometimes a person you used to like/have fun with is no longer fun to be with, and that isn't necessarily anyone's fault--it's just that both people change and learn things about themselves and have new interests.
I hope you do find a way to talk about Dad's alcoholism at some point, though--it no doubt affects THEIR relationship, and even if you don't want to blame the divorce on it, he deserves to know the truth.
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I like that, Lexie. Thanks!
Regarding STBXAH's alcoholism in general, I have zero intention of trying to hide it, or lie about it, or be anything less than 100% honest with DS about it in age-appropriate ways. We will absolutely for sure be having those discussions as he grows and matures. There are times when I struggle with what is appropriate, and what is a full-on walk across to STBXAH's side of the street. For example, DS assumes that the multitude of beer cans are "soda cans." A month or two ago, when I dropped DS off with STBXAH, DS went back into the kitchen to throw something away and was obviously met with the usual layer of empties from the night before in the trash can and exclaimed, "Daddy, you drank a lot of pop!" Is it my place to explain to DS that those AREN'T pop cans? That beer and pop are different? I honestly believe that he has reached this conclusion on an assumption, but obviously STBXAH isn't doing anything to correct the assumption. DS knows he's not supposed to drink out of those cans, so he must know they are somehow different from the cans of root beer or orange soda that STBXAH sometimes buys. Ugh...so much to navigate on this, and I want to do right by DS without crossing the line into controlling and manipulating and badmouthing.
DS attends a small private school affiliated with a church. There isn't a school counselor per se, but his teacher, the principal, and the pastor all know the backstory. Hell...STBXAH and I even met with the pastor several times a few years ago right when I started getting to the point where I knew I was done, so he REALLY knows the story.
Regarding STBXAH's alcoholism in general, I have zero intention of trying to hide it, or lie about it, or be anything less than 100% honest with DS about it in age-appropriate ways. We will absolutely for sure be having those discussions as he grows and matures. There are times when I struggle with what is appropriate, and what is a full-on walk across to STBXAH's side of the street. For example, DS assumes that the multitude of beer cans are "soda cans." A month or two ago, when I dropped DS off with STBXAH, DS went back into the kitchen to throw something away and was obviously met with the usual layer of empties from the night before in the trash can and exclaimed, "Daddy, you drank a lot of pop!" Is it my place to explain to DS that those AREN'T pop cans? That beer and pop are different? I honestly believe that he has reached this conclusion on an assumption, but obviously STBXAH isn't doing anything to correct the assumption. DS knows he's not supposed to drink out of those cans, so he must know they are somehow different from the cans of root beer or orange soda that STBXAH sometimes buys. Ugh...so much to navigate on this, and I want to do right by DS without crossing the line into controlling and manipulating and badmouthing.
DS attends a small private school affiliated with a church. There isn't a school counselor per se, but his teacher, the principal, and the pastor all know the backstory. Hell...STBXAH and I even met with the pastor several times a few years ago right when I started getting to the point where I knew I was done, so he REALLY knows the story.
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When we separated DD was around 5 yrs old (12 now); I told her that sometimes people grow apart & just can't get along the way they once did. And that trying to force that sometimes brings out the worst in both people, which makes everyone in the house miserable. Sometimes, people need time & space just like she does when she goes to her room to read or play alone & shuts the door. That becomes her sanctuary - but for mommies & daddies to do that it sometimes involves living apart. That way we can both be the very BEST people we can be & no one has to live in unhappiness.
I clarified for her that there are definitely ALL KINDS OF LOVE in this world & that the love/bond we have as mom-daughter isn't at risk in the same way.... I told her that she & I will always be family & I will ALWAYS love her, but that dad & I CHOSE to be family & that takes a whole different kind of effort on both sides to make it work, that love is not a "given" or a guarantee in those types of relationships, you both have to keep putting effort into each other..... that as years go on & we keep growing & changing, we sometimes find that we aren't compatible the way we once were. Just like when she liked to play with her friend A in preschool but they grew apart because they got interested in different things & she found new friends with the same interests.
I clarified for her that there are definitely ALL KINDS OF LOVE in this world & that the love/bond we have as mom-daughter isn't at risk in the same way.... I told her that she & I will always be family & I will ALWAYS love her, but that dad & I CHOSE to be family & that takes a whole different kind of effort on both sides to make it work, that love is not a "given" or a guarantee in those types of relationships, you both have to keep putting effort into each other..... that as years go on & we keep growing & changing, we sometimes find that we aren't compatible the way we once were. Just like when she liked to play with her friend A in preschool but they grew apart because they got interested in different things & she found new friends with the same interests.
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Originally Posted by Wisconsin 
For example, DS assumes that the multitude of beer cans are "soda cans." A month or two ago, when I dropped DS off with STBXAH, DS went back into the kitchen to throw something away and was obviously met with the usual layer of empties from the night before in the trash can and exclaimed, "Daddy, you drank a lot of pop!" Is it my place to explain to DS that those AREN'T pop cans? That beer and pop are different? I honestly believe that he has reached this conclusion on an assumption, but obviously STBXAH isn't doing anything to correct the assumption. DS knows he's not supposed to drink out of those cans, so he must know they are somehow different from the cans of root beer or orange soda that STBXAH sometimes buys. Ugh...so much to navigate on this, and I want to do right by DS without crossing the line into controlling and manipulating and badmouthing.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
Does DS ask/talk to you about the "pop" cans?
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Well, I came right out and told DS 7 that his dad has a disease called alcoholism, and because of it he sometimes makes bad choices and gets angry. I was trying to avoid talking too much about the verbal and physical abuse, which was primarily directed at me and my older son, but he remembered some of the screaming and yelling.
But I also told him the truth about my meetings, and that I needed help too. I don't think that talking about alcoholism/codependency honestly blames or demonizes the other parent- or grandparent, he's asked me about my dad (an unrepentant alcoholic who I haven't seen or spoken to in 20 years). My ex's dad is in AA and is very open about going to his meetings every Saturday night, so I was able to explain the difference between someone who has a disease but is taking care of themselves to get better and someone who chooses not to do that.
None of this was all one big conversation. It's been an ongoing discussion for the past two years or so, with all the drama and upheaval from the custody trial kind of bringing things to the forefront. He digests what I tell him and comes to me later with questions, sometimes the same ones, sometimes not. After the debacle this summer (which made me glad I laid the groundwork with the alcoholism/disease discussion) I am going to look into some counseling for him as well. DS 14 already goes, so I might see if I can get little guy in as well. Big hugs Wisconsin, and to all the moms and dads dealing with this.
But I also told him the truth about my meetings, and that I needed help too. I don't think that talking about alcoholism/codependency honestly blames or demonizes the other parent- or grandparent, he's asked me about my dad (an unrepentant alcoholic who I haven't seen or spoken to in 20 years). My ex's dad is in AA and is very open about going to his meetings every Saturday night, so I was able to explain the difference between someone who has a disease but is taking care of themselves to get better and someone who chooses not to do that.
None of this was all one big conversation. It's been an ongoing discussion for the past two years or so, with all the drama and upheaval from the custody trial kind of bringing things to the forefront. He digests what I tell him and comes to me later with questions, sometimes the same ones, sometimes not. After the debacle this summer (which made me glad I laid the groundwork with the alcoholism/disease discussion) I am going to look into some counseling for him as well. DS 14 already goes, so I might see if I can get little guy in as well. Big hugs Wisconsin, and to all the moms and dads dealing with this.
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Wisconsin, I have no kids and no experience w/them, and holy cow, 6 just seems so young to have to try to explain something like this!
The only thought I wanted to put forth was maybe to express that there are different degrees of "friendship", and that while he is expected to get along with everyone, he is not expected to be best friends with everyone. Being married is being the closest kind of friends of all, and it's not something you can do w/just anyone, any more than kids can be best friends w/everyone.
Don't know if that is at all helpful, but I'm certain you'll find a way that feels right.
The only thought I wanted to put forth was maybe to express that there are different degrees of "friendship", and that while he is expected to get along with everyone, he is not expected to be best friends with everyone. Being married is being the closest kind of friends of all, and it's not something you can do w/just anyone, any more than kids can be best friends w/everyone.
Don't know if that is at all helpful, but I'm certain you'll find a way that feels right.
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I love the input here so much. Ladyscribbler, the whole notion of piecemealing this out in small conversations, often tied to questions he asks, is how I envision this going over the next few years. I think that's a great point. I definitely feel comfortable talking these things over with him as he asks about them. I have a harder time knowing when it's appropriate for me to bring things up on my own--my gut is that he's too young for that at this point, but as he gets older I will need to take the bull by the horns on a couple of issues to make sure he can protect himself.
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Since DS is only 6, you might want to look into art therapy for him. Children notice and react to a lot more then we think most of the time. Also, speaking with a psychologist that deals with families and addiction might be helpful in telling you ways and times to tell children about addiction.
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AdelineRose mentioned art therapy already. There's also play therapy. DS worked with a really great therapist, who specialized in play therapy and had a strong background in abuse and addiction issues within families.
DS may not have understood alcoholism - heck, I'm in my 40's and _I_ don't understand alcoholism - but he understood something wasn't right; something in our family felt scary. I feel like I'm mentioning the book a lot lately, but DS really liked the book The Brown Bottle by Penny Jones when he was little.
As far as talking about divorce... When I finally filed, DS was 5-6. He and I talked a lot about Family. A lot of reassurances like: Grandma is Family and she loves you. She doesn't live in our home, and lives 2,000 miles away, but she's still Family. Grandma and Grandpa don't live in our home and they're still Family. They love you so much even if we don't live with them. etc. Family doesn't always live under the same roof, but we're still family. We talked about the different ways he knows we love him.
It really helped to talk about his two grandma's and the ways they're different. Grandma D plays card and board games with him when she's here. Grandma R bakes cookies with him and lets him help with and teaches him about their flower garden. Grandma D says "No". (A LOT.) Grandma R, quite a bit less so.
None of the differences mean one loves him more than the other. It's just that they're different. People express their love differently.
With his dad, well, some people, don't know how to express their love in ways we would want them to. Or if they're dealing with an addiction (like the caterpillar choosing to stay in the bottle in The Brown Bottle), it's something they can't do - there's something in the way. It doesn't have anything to do with DS. Doesn't make it hurt less, but it's not his fault.
((((hugs)))) for you and DS, it's hard stuff to deal with.
DS may not have understood alcoholism - heck, I'm in my 40's and _I_ don't understand alcoholism - but he understood something wasn't right; something in our family felt scary. I feel like I'm mentioning the book a lot lately, but DS really liked the book The Brown Bottle by Penny Jones when he was little.
As far as talking about divorce... When I finally filed, DS was 5-6. He and I talked a lot about Family. A lot of reassurances like: Grandma is Family and she loves you. She doesn't live in our home, and lives 2,000 miles away, but she's still Family. Grandma and Grandpa don't live in our home and they're still Family. They love you so much even if we don't live with them. etc. Family doesn't always live under the same roof, but we're still family. We talked about the different ways he knows we love him.
It really helped to talk about his two grandma's and the ways they're different. Grandma D plays card and board games with him when she's here. Grandma R bakes cookies with him and lets him help with and teaches him about their flower garden. Grandma D says "No". (A LOT.) Grandma R, quite a bit less so.
None of the differences mean one loves him more than the other. It's just that they're different. People express their love differently.With his dad, well, some people, don't know how to express their love in ways we would want them to. Or if they're dealing with an addiction (like the caterpillar choosing to stay in the bottle in The Brown Bottle), it's something they can't do - there's something in the way. It doesn't have anything to do with DS. Doesn't make it hurt less, but it's not his fault.
((((hugs)))) for you and DS, it's hard stuff to deal with.
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