Elyse16

So I was reading a post on here today about verbal abuse and I didn't want to hijack the thread. As I was reading, I found some similarities of verbal abuse that both of us were guilty of. Most of his was daily, such as flipping blame, bad mouthing me to friends (who all claimed he should dump me and I was the verbal abuser), telling me he didn't care if I believed him, to go find someone else, etc. There were two breakups, one in 2013 and one in 2014 where I was so angry that I called him an a**hole and a d-bag. I never called him names otherwise and I like to believe I was nothing but supportive. I was very ashamed for saying these things as I'm not a name caller. The words surprised me, and I've worked on controlling my anger ever since through self-help. At this recent breakup, that he obviously knew was coming, he said if I wished to end it, to please not act like a 6th grader and call people names. I didn't. I ended it respectfully even though I was angry.

I feel guilty. I know I shouldn't care now but I can't help thinking if he felt I was a verbal abuser even when I wasn't calling names. I felt like I had to defend everything to him when I had done nothing wrong. And he used to say the same to me. He was always snarky and would call himself names such as 'I'm an a**hole. Go find someone else.' Or 'I'm a jerk. Everything is my fault. I'll just keep taking your abuse.' I wasn't perfect but I tried to not accuse. I asked questions like did you go to the bar or how do you know this woman Bc I've never heard you mention her name?' In the end, he was lying about drinking, he was hiding friendships with woman, and he was breaking promises that he needed to keep in order for me to stay.

I'd like to believe I tried my damnest to keep us alive but I feel terrible if somehow I was too blame for words I shouldn't have said. I never heard the end of how my words hurt him, even 2 years after the fact. Apparently he took a pic of a text that was name calling and he sent it to friends. He used to send it to me here and there to remind me of my words and how I wasn't perfect either. When I asked him how it helps to see this reminder, he just said it doesn't go away overnight. One night a couple months ago after a very nice visit, he said he was looking at pics on his phone and saw the text pic and texted me how much it hurt him all over again and he needed a day. When I said a day for what, he said to deal with this. He refused to talk to me on the phone and ignored me for a day.

Part of me thinks I'm to blame. Maybe I partly drove him to drink with my abuse and always being angry at him. Maybe that's why everyone wanted him to leave me. I have no idea what his side of the story was. I know I had some ugly moments and I know I hated the always angry, always arguing person I was becoming.

Just venting some thoughts.

Elyse

theuncertainty

Abuse, whether it's physical, verbal, or financial, etc., is a pattern of behavior that's about control. The biggest difference between being an abuser and someone who isn't abusive is the willingness to look at their own behavior and try to change.

I don't think that some one who is abusive would look at the relationship and seriously contemplate whether something they did was wrong; they'd simply believe they were justified in everything they did and were not at fault. The following link on Love is Respect might help:

Am I Abusive Too? The Myth of Mutual Abuse ? www.loveisrespect.org

Elyse, nothing you did or didn't do made him drink. You could have been the sweetest, butter-wouldn't-melt-in-your-mouth, super accommodating partner and he would still find reasons to drink.

AnvilheadII

sweetie, right now you are in the "bargaining" stage of grief.....trying to find out where you made errors, so that then "maybe" IF you corrected them, it would all work out just fine.

he was going to drink REGARDLESS of what you did. if you had the power to make him drink, you then also possessed the power to make him stop. and NO ONE has that type of power of another person's drinking/addiction.

IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT. sure, in the heat of the moment, we might say harsh words just to deflect the onslaught coming our way. but you did not talk down to him all day, every day....you did not berate, belittle and lie.

have you ever stubbed your toe HARD? i mean like "i think i just broke my foot" hard? and what comes out of your mouth>? is it:
Oh gee wilickers that was a bit painful..........or more like F*****ck, dammitohellandback, SOB that hurt!!!!! and you maybe even hit the wall with the side of your fist, just to redirect your concentration.

ok, so maybe that is how "I" handled it, but you get the idea.

we all have our moments. but the difference is.....they are just MOMENTS, not a lifestyle.

DarkCloudOverMe

No you didn't drive him to drink. I think with an alcoholic they are going to drink and find something/someone to blame it on.

That is where I am at with my husband right now playing the blame game. But I know deep down this is his problem not mine. I am working on keeping my children and me safe. And I am trying to keep my mind sane. I refuse to take any blame in this other than blaming myself for still living here.

Expanding

Sometimes we catch "fleas", which means we take on some of the characteristics and defenses of an abuser. If you feel guilty, you are not an abuser. There's also a lot of projection that goes on and they are masters at shifting the blame onto you, and because you are NOT an abuser you take it on.

I know exactly how you feel. I cried for weeks because I felt like the biggest POS. Then I started to hear what he had been saying about me behind my back for YEARS and realized that he was an emotional manipulator. I still waver back and forth because I did do things and say things that I am not proud of, but I have some compassion for myself now and can see that I was up against something dark.

A's need to shift blame, they cannot be held accountable for anything or else they'll have to admit they have a problem... so they are going to push as much of that off onto you as possible.

You don't have to accept it. I think it's good to recognize your part and see what behaviors you don't want to engage in again, but there's a big difference being abused and being an abuser. When A's are drinking they are going to do and say whatever they have to to keep chugging along...

There are a couple channels I really like on YouTube called Inner Integration and Self-Care Haven. They focus on narcissistic and toxic personalities, how it happens, why it happens and how to move forward. You might find their videos useful. They go into diversion tactics... they take the focus off their bad behavior and put it onto your reaction... now they get off free and now you look like the "bad guy". It's very crazy making stuff

Elyse16

Thanks everybody. Per usual, you talked me down and made me feel better. I do know I have had a great sense of calm the last few days, and I'm trying to heal instead of hide from everything. Taking these waves is rough sometimes.

Thomas45

Without being there to see what went on, I couldn't make any assumptions about the roles that the two of you played during your relationship.

That said, in my experiences, addicts and alcoholics do have a tendency to deflect, blame-shift, and project their own mentalities on to the people around them. As an example, I honestly can't count how many times I had to reassure my AXW that I didn't have any women hidden away on the side... and yet she got caught on several occasions being far too friendly with strangers at the bar. Drugs make people cope with sources of stress through non-coping methods. Avoidance, deflection, denial.

That also being said, I've found that misery loves company. Being around somebody who is constantly causing you stress, anger, or frustration causes their negativity to rub off on you and can change your own levels of emotional tolerance. When I started my relationship with my AXW, I was the very image of patience, nothing she said or did could bring my attitude down. Problem is, nobody can be perfectly patient forever. We aren't machines that always approach the same situation through the same means. If someone kicks us, we hurt. And we remember it for next time. My emotions got chipped away at over time, bit by bit, until I reached a point where even the suggestion of going to a bar or casino would give me mild panic attacks. Patience? Zero. Whereas in the beginning if she was drinking I wouldn't have a problem, towards the end I couldn't enjoy social settings because I would be constantly worrying about that hair trigger of hers... would everything be fine at the end of the night, or would she start ranting about me in front of her friends after a few too many? Did I end up becoming an angrier person through the course of the relationship? YES, resoundingly so!

Maybe you did speak poorly to him. Maybe you didn't. From the sounds of things though, he doesn't appear to have been a complete angel either. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Here's the kicker: he is to blame for the words he shouldn't have said, you are to blame for the words you shouldn't have said, I am to blame for the words I shouldn't have said, and my AXW is to blame for the words she shouldn't have said. Nobody forced a gun to your head and made you speak them. What is important is whether you can own responsibility for your choices without minimizing his responsibility for his choices, and strive towards self control and self improvement. While we certainly become angrier people if we are surrounded by an angry partner every single day for a long period of time, every single day presents a choice that we have to make for ourselves, namely what we are willing to accept in our lives. If I am not willing to act to remove or distance myself from my source of anger, then the only person responsible for my anger is myself.

Katchie

Guilt and shame, big codependency trademarks and with his drinking, of course there will be codependency. I use to think if I just kept my house cleaner, or the kids cleaner, if I loved him more, or if I could screen his calls and say "no" for him because he couldn't say that little word himself then he wouldn't drink as much. When I began to resent him and his drinking I began to feel guilty for all of the anger and feelings of hate. No matter what, I felt guilt and shame. I still struggle with those two emotions regularly but I'm working on it. I'm still say "sorry" or feel shame on occasion for things that I really had no part in but feel guilt for anyway -- crazy! I'm getting better the longer I'm divorced from my exah. God, proper positive and truthful input in the old noggin, and time are healing. Alanon and this site have been tremendous helps, but I'm sure you already know this. Hugs

Expanding

If I encounter someone (usually a woman) who says sorry for everything it breaks my heart. It's like she is apologizing just for existing. My ex's cousin started dating someone who did this and it made me wonder who might have caused her to feel shame for simply existing.

You are allowed to be here and take up space. You are allowed to use things, have feelings, and be.

sunny053

There are lots of great points above...to add to that, really??!! He's taken a screenshot of a text message you sent two years ago and randomly bring it up and sends it to you now???

That just sounds really off to me. It's not normal and it sounds like he is guilt tripping you to distract attention from his own behaviour. It reminds me of number 7 on this article: 20 Diversion Tactics Highly Manipulative Narcissists, Sociopaths And Psychopaths Use To Silence You | Thought Catalog

I found this article recently on a forum about personality disorders and do take it with a grain of salt, but I think that a lot of the behaviours on that list overlap with how active addicts behave. It's an interesting read...below is the part that I think of when reading your story:

"This type of tactic is what I like to call the “What about me?” syndrome. It is a literal digression from the actual topic that works to redirect attention to a different issue altogether. Narcissists don’t want you to be on the topic of holding them accountable for anything, so they will reroute discussions to benefit them. Complaining about their neglectful parenting? They’ll point out a mistake you committed seven years ago. This type of diversion has no limits in terms of time or subject content, and often begins with a sentence like “What about the time when…”

On a macrolevel, these diversions work to derail discussions that challenge the status quo. A discussion about gay rights, for example, may be derailed quickly by someone who brings in another social justice issue just to distract people from the main argument.

Don’t get sucked into nitpicking and changing goal posts – if someone chooses to rehash an irrelevant point over and over again to the point where they aren’t acknowledging the work you’ve done to validate your point or satisfy them, their motive isn’t to better understand. It’s to further provoke you into feeling as if you have to constantly prove yourself. Validate and approve of yourself. Know that you are enough and you don’t have to be made to feel constantly deficient or unworthy in some way."

redatlanta

It would be the rare non existent bird that never said something in a relationship that was a yell, a curse, or mean. Ain't no one perfect, we all have bad days. We ALL say things we wish we did not.

An A-hole is an A-hole, so you verbalized it? What's the big deal? its one thing to constantly or frequently be name calling (like him), its another to be in a fight and use "fighting" words.

That he screen shot one text two years ago is pretty pathetic. I have seen conversations where you know its "real" verbal abuse via text. it doesn't sound like the situation to me. What it sounds like is he is a verbal abuser, and the one time you called him a name in his mind that leveled the playing field. If he truly can't get over that you called him an A-hole two years ago he needs serious therapy. I don't think that is authentic, I believe he is playing the victim and trying very hard to deflect off his own behavior.

honeypig

Elyse, you've gotten a lot of great info and support here, and I don't have a lot to add. I just wanted to say that I went thru a brief period where I also saw some of the things I'd done/said as being the same as what XAH had done/said and wondered if I was guilty of abusing him during the relationship. I eventually came to the conclusions that others here are suggesting--I said those things in a moment of anger or frustration, it was not a regular pattern of behavior for me, and I felt bad about what I'd said afterwards, apologizing and admitting I was wrong. None of these things were true of how/when XAH said them.

Certainly my responses were not often healthy, and certainly I own some of the "blame" for the marriage ending in that my own shortcomings contributed to the unhealthy dynamic. I think, however, that it's a fine line between appropriately owning our character defects/areas that need improvement and beating ourselves up b/c we aren't perfect. I hope you can find your balance in this area.

dandylion

Isn't there such a thing as "aggravated" behavior?
I don't think that aggravated behavior is the same level as spontaneous aggressive behavior.....

dandylion

redatlanta

Yep ^^

cairn

Nope! Emotions and bristles run high when under attack for everyone! Blow it off, stick close to your heart which is clearly a good one! Drinkers drink, that's what we do. Deep down, way way way deep down, way, we can't stand ourselves either. Way way way way way deep down...way. But our egos won't seem to allow our heart any sway. We blame, excuse, justify and run away sooner than face ourselves and our rotten treatment of others, and the shoddy frauds we have become.

And we drink. And it all gets processed through the liver, and the living room furniture, and destruction of everything worthwhile in life.

But of one thing we are certain, that somehow, some way, it is all someone else's fault, and we can somehow control and enjoy our drinking.

Butterfly

You did not cause him to drink you are not to blame for his drinking, we all say things I. Anger and it doesn't make you a bad person and it doesn't make him drink, that's his excuse, remember the 3 C's.

As for the picture of the text message that is pure manipulation to make you feel bad and guilty. My stbxah left many times throughout our .marriage so he could drink uninterrupted. I got the courage up once to leave him but we got back together, he would say to me that over the next 5 years we were together that me leaving made him feel insecure in our marriage which of course I would feel guilty about and apologise reassure him I'd never leave again!! He even put it in the divorce papers, seriously he felt insecure I can't remember the amount of times he left me! Next time he sends this to you, ignore it and do something nice for yourself, he is trying to make you feel guilty and take the attention of everything he's done. (((Hugs)))