How can they live with themselves??
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boscobel, WI
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How can they live with themselves??
Hi friends,
I dated a man for 4 years and about 2 months ago he quit drinking. I had hoped and prayed for that day. Well he came around less and less. I asked him why and he said he was feeling pressure from me and couldn't handle it. I said I was fine with being friends if he could not handle the pressure of a releationship at this time. he made plans to come over the following Friday night and grill out. Well he never showed up or called, and hasn't yet. He knew I gave up plans at church because I made plans with him first. As far as I see it, sobriety has made him more selfish and intolerable than ever. I see clearly that every bad thing and hurtful thing could not be blamed on alcohol. It's just plain him. All my hopes crumbled and dashed. After that stunt I hope I never see or talk to him again. And how he can be a jerk like that and live with himself sober is beyone me. 4 years of lies then he gets sober and gets worse. Can't believe it. Any words of wisdom out there????
I dated a man for 4 years and about 2 months ago he quit drinking. I had hoped and prayed for that day. Well he came around less and less. I asked him why and he said he was feeling pressure from me and couldn't handle it. I said I was fine with being friends if he could not handle the pressure of a releationship at this time. he made plans to come over the following Friday night and grill out. Well he never showed up or called, and hasn't yet. He knew I gave up plans at church because I made plans with him first. As far as I see it, sobriety has made him more selfish and intolerable than ever. I see clearly that every bad thing and hurtful thing could not be blamed on alcohol. It's just plain him. All my hopes crumbled and dashed. After that stunt I hope I never see or talk to him again. And how he can be a jerk like that and live with himself sober is beyone me. 4 years of lies then he gets sober and gets worse. Can't believe it. Any words of wisdom out there????
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: ROCKPORT , MAINE
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Some words...
HI DotsterB - Not sure if I am wise enough yet to give you actual "words of wisdom"
But I CAN share my own feelings & experience.
Sounds like you got a " typical man " (sorry guys).
I remember when I was in my 20s and single ....how many guys made me "wait by the phone" so to speak.
I personally don't think that alchohol makes someone "bad".....it just keeps them "stuck in stupid "
FURTHERMORE .....I don't think sobriety makes someone "good"
Integrity & "good home training" are qualities that are learned & earned by an individual..........regardless if he is an alcholic or not.
I don't think that alchohol or sobriety played a part in the bad manners displayed by this man standing you up.
Forget him
You deserve better!!!!
But I CAN share my own feelings & experience.
Sounds like you got a " typical man " (sorry guys).
I remember when I was in my 20s and single ....how many guys made me "wait by the phone" so to speak.
I personally don't think that alchohol makes someone "bad".....it just keeps them "stuck in stupid "
FURTHERMORE .....I don't think sobriety makes someone "good"
Integrity & "good home training" are qualities that are learned & earned by an individual..........regardless if he is an alcholic or not.
I don't think that alchohol or sobriety played a part in the bad manners displayed by this man standing you up.
Forget him
You deserve better!!!!
CindeRella is proof that a new pair of shoes can change your life!
Join Date: Aug 2004
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"stuck in stupid" I love that WHYOWHY *clap*
Dot...I'm sorry for the pain that he has caused you-Forgive him and as Why said forget him and move on. Start working on yourself and by letting go you can do this. I'm not one for much wisdom eithier as I'm battling with a major issue myself right now-but as hard as it is forgive him and fly sweetie!
(((hugs)))
Dot...I'm sorry for the pain that he has caused you-Forgive him and as Why said forget him and move on. Start working on yourself and by letting go you can do this. I'm not one for much wisdom eithier as I'm battling with a major issue myself right now-but as hard as it is forgive him and fly sweetie!
(((hugs)))
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: No where
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DotsterB
I don't totally agree. I know my husband about a year or so into AA started changing totally. He said he was different, he felt different, blah, blah, blah. I really think that in facing all the steps and having to face what they were like - when they face us day in and day out they also are reminded of how they were. I know he was about 3 years sober and following the program and I was beginning to wonder why I wanted him to stop drinking (just kidding). You think you will do anything to get them to stop and then when they do stop - you don't like it/them. That was when I started reading everything I could, going to Alanon meetings, tuning in here and trying to see myself. As I changed, he started going to counselling. It has been a lot of hard work and time but he is almost to the 4 year sober mark and we are still together and mostly happy about it. I'm not saying that this is what it is - just that maybe they go through a period where they have changed so much and it is just so hard to face that person that they were. I don't know. I did have him marked as just a stupid, selfish man and I wanted out but I looked a little further. He is still selfish but now we talk about it and the wonderfull man that I first met is still there, he was just struggling to become what he always was. Good Luck.
I don't totally agree. I know my husband about a year or so into AA started changing totally. He said he was different, he felt different, blah, blah, blah. I really think that in facing all the steps and having to face what they were like - when they face us day in and day out they also are reminded of how they were. I know he was about 3 years sober and following the program and I was beginning to wonder why I wanted him to stop drinking (just kidding). You think you will do anything to get them to stop and then when they do stop - you don't like it/them. That was when I started reading everything I could, going to Alanon meetings, tuning in here and trying to see myself. As I changed, he started going to counselling. It has been a lot of hard work and time but he is almost to the 4 year sober mark and we are still together and mostly happy about it. I'm not saying that this is what it is - just that maybe they go through a period where they have changed so much and it is just so hard to face that person that they were. I don't know. I did have him marked as just a stupid, selfish man and I wanted out but I looked a little further. He is still selfish but now we talk about it and the wonderfull man that I first met is still there, he was just struggling to become what he always was. Good Luck.
Dot, I agree with the others. Now you are free of the agony. One day maybe you'll realize he did you a favor when you are happily in love with a Good Man. I hear that they are out there somewhere!
But, to give another perspective, my AH says he stays away because of the guilt. Guilt he feels for all of the pain he has caused me. He says that when he is sober it hurts more because all he does is sit and think about all of the bad things he has done. So maybe that is the case here with you. Maybe he realizes fully how much he put you through over the last four years and the best thing he feels he can give you is a life without him.
But, to give another perspective, my AH says he stays away because of the guilt. Guilt he feels for all of the pain he has caused me. He says that when he is sober it hurts more because all he does is sit and think about all of the bad things he has done. So maybe that is the case here with you. Maybe he realizes fully how much he put you through over the last four years and the best thing he feels he can give you is a life without him.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
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But, to give another perspective, my AH says he stays away because of the guilt. Guilt he feels for all of the pain he has caused me. He says that when he is sober it hurts more because all he does is sit and think about all of the bad things he has done. So maybe that is the case here with you. Maybe he realizes fully how much he put you through over the last four years and the best thing he feels he can give you is a life without him.
Osakis, I know what you mean. I tell him it is a cop out. Just another excuse to make himself feel a little bit better. BUT, then again, I can see his point too. I would be extremely guilty and frankly would rather avoid the ones I hurt all together too only out of sheer embarrassment. I would assume that they think I'm a loser. I mean I do that now with my extended family. I know it's a form of depression, but I don't want them to think less of me because my marriage is a wreck. I want them to know how great I am, not how the reality is my life sucks! It's all about image and perception, I don't want them to know how miserable I really am & I guess it's easier for me to deal with at this point because I am not facing up to it yet. You know a failed marriage, I really feel like a let down. (Don't get me wrong...I know I didn't cause this relationship to fail, but I still feel like a loser none-the-less).
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Javatown
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I disagree with the cliches posted: you deserve better, get rid of him, oh how horrible blahyadablah!!!
So what, the man has issues -that is why he is in recovery. How you react to this situation is your CHOICE. Make it important and an earth shattering deal breaker, and it is.
In my opinion, cut the man some slack. Especially since you decided to just be 'friends' right now, so act like one insted of a victim! Both of you need all the recovery support you can get right now. Perhaps you could try focusing on taking loving care of yourself, going to an AlAnon meeting, the whole 9.
That's my opinion today.
So what, the man has issues -that is why he is in recovery. How you react to this situation is your CHOICE. Make it important and an earth shattering deal breaker, and it is.
In my opinion, cut the man some slack. Especially since you decided to just be 'friends' right now, so act like one insted of a victim! Both of you need all the recovery support you can get right now. Perhaps you could try focusing on taking loving care of yourself, going to an AlAnon meeting, the whole 9.
That's my opinion today.
Not that I don't think all people going through recovery deserve get cut some slack, I don't really think that is what this man is doing. Granted I don't know much about the situation, but if someone I was dating for 4 years made plans with me on Friday & never showed up & then never called or anything still 3 days later I would be MAD! Sure he may have a great excuse as to why he didn't show up or call, but he hasn't attempted to even make an excuse yet. Dealing with recovery is probably even harder than living with the drunk sometimes, but that shouldn't mean that this man should just make plans and not call. They have been together for way too long for that to be acceptable.
When he calls with the excuse, then if he's deserving, cut him the slack, but until then you do deserve better than the treatment he is giving you now!
When he calls with the excuse, then if he's deserving, cut him the slack, but until then you do deserve better than the treatment he is giving you now!
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Join Date: May 2004
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Originally Posted by CrazyRed
I disagree with the cliches posted: you deserve better, get rid of him, oh how horrible blahyadablah!!!
I think this behavior is part of the disease!
I am taking this from the Alcoholics Forum
I think it is very wrong of all of us Codies to expect our alcoholic SO's to be perfectly normal and fine after years and years of abusive alcoholic behavior. These folks suffer both mentally and physically while recovering, even if that recovery takes years and sometimes it does.
Al-Anon and this this forum is to get ourselves well, to recover ourselves, not to pick on the alcoholic who is struggling to get better everyday hopefully.
My AH and I don't really ever talk about his recovery, but I see sometimes that just functioning normal for him is painful and an effort. Yes, he forgets things, I remind him, if I get mad I tell him but what I don't do is PLAY GAMES with him and his mind. He is struggling and I am struggling. We understand that about each other.
I also believe that this recovering A should be cut some slack. He probably has little memory of the past 4 years anyway, at least not right now.
Post Acute Withdrawal (PAW)
After the symptoms of the acute abstinence syndrome have subsided, the symptoms of post acute withdrawal (PAW) begin to emerge. Post acute withdrawal syndrome is a group of symptoms resulting from neuropsychological (brain and central nervous system) impairments that persist into recovery. PAW surfaces 7 to 14 days into abstinence and grows to a peak intensity over the next three to six months.
The post acute withdrawal syndrome affects thought processes, emotional processes, and memory. Symptoms include problems with abstract thinking, concentration, and memory. The alcoholic also becomes stress sensitive. There is an overreaction to stress and lowered tolerance to stress.
The intelligence of a person is not affected. It is as if the computer in the head is not functioning properly. The impairment can be corrected, but it takes time and it takes some effort.
Sometimes the brain cannot translate short-term memory into long-term memory; so you may forget you were to give Sally a message. Sometimes the information is there, but it is jumbled and confused. You may remember to give Sally the message but give it incorrectly. When the thoughts of recovering alcoholics become chaotic and confusing and when they find themselves unable to concentrate or to remember how they solved problems before, they may believe they are going crazy. They are not. These experiences are normal during recovery and they will pass.
The paradox of recovery is that recovery from neurological impairment requires abstinence, but neurological impairment interferes with the ability to abstain. This means that everything possible must be done to control the effects of PAW while recovery is taking place.
There is a direct relationship between elevated stress and the severity of PAW. Each tends to reinforce the other. Stress aggravates PAW and makes it more severe; the intensity of PAW creates stress which further aggravates PAW. Recovering alcoholics can learn to identify sources of stress and develop skills in decision making and problem solving to help reduce stress. Proper diet, exercise, regular habits, and positive attitudes all play important parts in controlling PAW. Relaxation can be used as a tool to retrain the brain to function properly and to reduce stress. Learning about the symptoms of post acute withdrawal, knowing what to expect, and not overreacting to the symptoms increase the ability to function appropriately and effectively. Remember, the symptoms of PAW will pass with continued sobriety.
After the symptoms of the acute abstinence syndrome have subsided, the symptoms of post acute withdrawal (PAW) begin to emerge. Post acute withdrawal syndrome is a group of symptoms resulting from neuropsychological (brain and central nervous system) impairments that persist into recovery. PAW surfaces 7 to 14 days into abstinence and grows to a peak intensity over the next three to six months.
The post acute withdrawal syndrome affects thought processes, emotional processes, and memory. Symptoms include problems with abstract thinking, concentration, and memory. The alcoholic also becomes stress sensitive. There is an overreaction to stress and lowered tolerance to stress.
The intelligence of a person is not affected. It is as if the computer in the head is not functioning properly. The impairment can be corrected, but it takes time and it takes some effort.
Sometimes the brain cannot translate short-term memory into long-term memory; so you may forget you were to give Sally a message. Sometimes the information is there, but it is jumbled and confused. You may remember to give Sally the message but give it incorrectly. When the thoughts of recovering alcoholics become chaotic and confusing and when they find themselves unable to concentrate or to remember how they solved problems before, they may believe they are going crazy. They are not. These experiences are normal during recovery and they will pass.
The paradox of recovery is that recovery from neurological impairment requires abstinence, but neurological impairment interferes with the ability to abstain. This means that everything possible must be done to control the effects of PAW while recovery is taking place.
There is a direct relationship between elevated stress and the severity of PAW. Each tends to reinforce the other. Stress aggravates PAW and makes it more severe; the intensity of PAW creates stress which further aggravates PAW. Recovering alcoholics can learn to identify sources of stress and develop skills in decision making and problem solving to help reduce stress. Proper diet, exercise, regular habits, and positive attitudes all play important parts in controlling PAW. Relaxation can be used as a tool to retrain the brain to function properly and to reduce stress. Learning about the symptoms of post acute withdrawal, knowing what to expect, and not overreacting to the symptoms increase the ability to function appropriately and effectively. Remember, the symptoms of PAW will pass with continued sobriety.
Al-Anon and this this forum is to get ourselves well, to recover ourselves, not to pick on the alcoholic who is struggling to get better everyday hopefully.
My AH and I don't really ever talk about his recovery, but I see sometimes that just functioning normal for him is painful and an effort. Yes, he forgets things, I remind him, if I get mad I tell him but what I don't do is PLAY GAMES with him and his mind. He is struggling and I am struggling. We understand that about each other.
I also believe that this recovering A should be cut some slack. He probably has little memory of the past 4 years anyway, at least not right now.
Again, my point here is that this man has yet to contact her at all yet. They have been together for 4 years. That is a long time together to be able to make plans with someone and then not even receive a phone call after 3 entire days. Like I said previously, cut the slack after you hear the excuse....if it's deserving!
Right now he is not deserving of anything. He has deserted his friend without explanation. If I were DotsterB I would be worried sick about his where-abouts. That in itself is reason to be angry because I'm sure he already knows she worries about him. I think it is ok for her to be upset here!!
Right now he is not deserving of anything. He has deserted his friend without explanation. If I were DotsterB I would be worried sick about his where-abouts. That in itself is reason to be angry because I'm sure he already knows she worries about him. I think it is ok for her to be upset here!!
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[QUOTE=leem03] Like I said previously, cut the slack after you hear the excuse....if it's deserving!
Yep, all it would take is a phone call to him....no judgements or 'excuses' required of friends. All of us in recovery need love and support.
Yep, all it would take is a phone call to him....no judgements or 'excuses' required of friends. All of us in recovery need love and support.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 80
Yep, all it would take is a phone call to him....no judgements or 'excuses' required of friends. All of us in recovery need love and support.
Certainly those in recovery need love and support -- but so do the people who love and support them. I accept that my brother has a disease over which he has no power. I DO NOT accept that his problems give him a license to treat others hurtfully. And I INSIST that he be accountable for and accept the consequences of his actions.
I would be extremely guilty and frankly would rather avoid the ones I hurt all together too only out of sheer embarrassment.
Last edited by Osakis; 09-29-2004 at 10:34 AM. Reason: add another thought
First of all, not to argue back, but everything you say is valid, but her AB has only been sober for 2 months. These things you mention take time to learn and behave in such a way.
Alcoholism is a disease and like with anyone with a disease we should show compassion. I'm not saying he is right or wrong, but this could all be ended with a simple phone call if she chose to make it. If not, then she can continue to harbor bad feelings and not make any progress in her own recovery. Let Go and Let God ........ sometimes I hate the expression, but I know it's the only way to go.
It doesn't surprise me that he didn't show up he said himself . His behavior should not have been such a big surprise. Hurtful yes, a surprise I don't think so.
Alcoholism is a disease and like with anyone with a disease we should show compassion. I'm not saying he is right or wrong, but this could all be ended with a simple phone call if she chose to make it. If not, then she can continue to harbor bad feelings and not make any progress in her own recovery. Let Go and Let God ........ sometimes I hate the expression, but I know it's the only way to go.
It doesn't surprise me that he didn't show up he said himself
Well he came around less and less. I asked him why and he said he was feeling pressure from me and couldn't handle it. I said I was fine with being friends if he could not handle the pressure of a releationship at this time.
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Almost a week later - no call for even an excuse. I see some think I should call, but frankly I think he had his chance and lost it. The more time that goes by, I get stronger without him. I know recovery is hard, but don't you need those who love you? Or were they only ok to be around drinking? I fear the answer to the question. And I'm not waiting for a verbal letdown. I already have it!
If only I had known about alcoholism 4 years ago, I'd made a lot better choices!
If only I had known about alcoholism 4 years ago, I'd made a lot better choices!
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