Is it wrong to be angry? If it is a disease, do they have control?
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 333
Originally Posted by FeelingGreat 
I don't think addiction is a disease because it's not something you catch like a virus. Many people have to work at becoming addicted (it took me a while to get to that point). They may have a genetic pre-disposition, but that gene doesn't have to be expressed.
A disease is a particular abnormal condition, a disorder of a structure or function, that affects part or all of an organism. The causal study of disease is called pathology. Disease is often construed as a medical condition associated with specific symptoms and signs.[1] It may be caused by factors originally from an external source, such as infectious disease, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases. Diseases usually affect people not only physically, but also emotionally, as contracting and living with a disease can alter one's perspective on life, and one's personality.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
I just finished reading a book called "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction" by Dr. Gabor Mate. In the earlier parts of the book, there is a lot of discussion of the physical aspects of addiction, mostly focused on brain conditions that make addiction much more likely in the individual w/the condition. I finished this section thinking, "man, it's a miracle there is anyone who is NOT an addict!"
Then there is discussion of how use of the DOC actually worsens these conditions, making it even more difficult for the addict to even see that there is a need for a change, let alone actually make that change. I finished this section thinking "how does anyone actually manage to get sober/clean? It sounds impossible!"
I began to feel very conflicted and upset--I know, beyond a doubt, that I am happier and better off w/XAH living elsewhere and NOT married to me, but if he truly was a helpless victim of a disease, which it seemed like Dr. Mate was saying, then was I wrong to have left him? Is he simply completely unable to make the choice of sobriety, given how damaged his choice-making equipment likely is? What/who is he responsible for? What/who am I responsible for?
Having finished the book, I feel I've learned a lot. I've recently had some insights, experienced a shift in my attitudes and am feeling much clearer and better, but that's a topic for another post.
I would strongly encourage anyone struggling w/this question of disease/choice to check into this book. While you may not agree w/everything he says, I can almost guarantee you'll find something of use. My local library had it, and yours may too, so you can take a look w/o investing $$.
I'll leave you with this statement from the book, for whatever it might be worth to you:
Sobriety is developing a mind-state focused not on staying away from something but on living a life led by positive values and intentions.
Then there is discussion of how use of the DOC actually worsens these conditions, making it even more difficult for the addict to even see that there is a need for a change, let alone actually make that change. I finished this section thinking "how does anyone actually manage to get sober/clean? It sounds impossible!"
I began to feel very conflicted and upset--I know, beyond a doubt, that I am happier and better off w/XAH living elsewhere and NOT married to me, but if he truly was a helpless victim of a disease, which it seemed like Dr. Mate was saying, then was I wrong to have left him? Is he simply completely unable to make the choice of sobriety, given how damaged his choice-making equipment likely is? What/who is he responsible for? What/who am I responsible for?
Having finished the book, I feel I've learned a lot. I've recently had some insights, experienced a shift in my attitudes and am feeling much clearer and better, but that's a topic for another post.
I would strongly encourage anyone struggling w/this question of disease/choice to check into this book. While you may not agree w/everything he says, I can almost guarantee you'll find something of use. My local library had it, and yours may too, so you can take a look w/o investing $$.
I'll leave you with this statement from the book, for whatever it might be worth to you:
Sobriety is developing a mind-state focused not on staying away from something but on living a life led by positive values and intentions.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,388
Alcoholism is actually considered to be a mental illness . At first you have a cluster of behavioral symptoms (loss of control, persistent desire to drink, desire to drink even if there are grave consequences, rationalization, denial, delusion), and if these are not addressed, physical consequences are inevitable.
Your ex is in 1) denial and 2) he is minimizing and rationalizing (Why you treat me as if I am some kind of monster?), and 3) on top of that, he is abusive, which is a completely separate issue and has to do with desire to control you.
Everyone has enough control to seek treatment and help when and if they really want to.
Your ex is in 1) denial and 2) he is minimizing and rationalizing (Why you treat me as if I am some kind of monster?), and 3) on top of that, he is abusive, which is a completely separate issue and has to do with desire to control you.
Everyone has enough control to seek treatment and help when and if they really want to.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Oread...do you have a right to be angry? Absolutely!!
You are entitled to your feelings. Your feelings are REAL to you.
The way I read it.....he is. basically, saying.....I have the right to abuse you..AND, you have an OBLIGATION to tolerate it.
He feels that he has the right to treat you in any ways that please him, at the moment that he feels like it.....
Does he ball his fist to his boss? Does he call the lady at the bank a c***?
He can control it when he needs to......
He has an attitude problem that is separate from the alcoholism---as I see it....
Alcoholism is no excuse to do abusive or immoral or illegal things.....
Of course, he wants an excuse that others will "buy" so that he doesn't have to bear responsibility for his actions.....lol......
I am glad that you had the wherewithal to make him your ex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just because you are sad that he idi not l ive up to your dreams for the relationship is no sign that you did the wrong thing and that you should subject yourself to abuse again!!!!!
You will get over the sadness and heal......
don't let him cause you to doubt yourself.....
dandylion
You are entitled to your feelings. Your feelings are REAL to you.
The way I read it.....he is. basically, saying.....I have the right to abuse you..AND, you have an OBLIGATION to tolerate it.
He feels that he has the right to treat you in any ways that please him, at the moment that he feels like it.....
Does he ball his fist to his boss? Does he call the lady at the bank a c***?
He can control it when he needs to......
He has an attitude problem that is separate from the alcoholism---as I see it....
Alcoholism is no excuse to do abusive or immoral or illegal things.....
Of course, he wants an excuse that others will "buy" so that he doesn't have to bear responsibility for his actions.....lol......
I am glad that you had the wherewithal to make him your ex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just because you are sad that he idi not l ive up to your dreams for the relationship is no sign that you did the wrong thing and that you should subject yourself to abuse again!!!!!
You will get over the sadness and heal......
don't let him cause you to doubt yourself.....
dandylion
Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 158
Oread, don´t ever doubt your own emotions. You don´t need anyone´s permission to feel a certain way, your emotions are YOURS. The way I see it, anger is your body´s way of telling you what things are causing a problem to your wellbeing, a way to alert you to put an end to it. Much like pain when you put your hand in boiling water, for instance.
The thing that bothered me when I was with my XABf was that all HIS feelings and emotions took center stage, while mine were pushed to the margins and completely dismissed. Of course, this went on gradually, so it was hard for me to put my finger on it in the beginning. But at some point I wondered Why am I questioning my emotions, Why do I always feel like my feelings are a nuisance? Like the relationship would be great if I were only able to shut down my natural reactions.
Perhaps you experienced something similar in your relationship, only you can know. The fact that you DID allow yourself to feel anger at some point is just healthy, don´t look for reasons to justify it, there´s no need.
The thing that bothered me when I was with my XABf was that all HIS feelings and emotions took center stage, while mine were pushed to the margins and completely dismissed. Of course, this went on gradually, so it was hard for me to put my finger on it in the beginning. But at some point I wondered Why am I questioning my emotions, Why do I always feel like my feelings are a nuisance? Like the relationship would be great if I were only able to shut down my natural reactions.
Perhaps you experienced something similar in your relationship, only you can know. The fact that you DID allow yourself to feel anger at some point is just healthy, don´t look for reasons to justify it, there´s no need.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: America
Posts: 4,136
Your feelings are you feelings, period. Anytime someone in your life tries to make you think you have no right to feel the way you do, that's a red flag, whether that person is an addict or not. One 'danger zone' that I learned about the hard way is that co-dependents can turn to substances theirselves as a way of dealing with or numbing their feelings because they are frequently sent "messages" that they shouldn't have those feelings. Try not to buy into those messages. All the replies here really hit the mark. Suppressing anger especially seems to be a very unhealthy thing to do. That anger will likely resurface in some way/shape/form-it can often manifest as depression.
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,872
^ tea tree-yep. That's what I did...stuffed anger and someone constantly calling me names when I said, "you hurt me" and blaming me....and me not talking to anyone about what was going on at home= some serious depression years and years ago. It's amazing how freeing, absolutely freeing, it is once you start to talk and speak your truth....don't stuff it!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Alcoholism is a mental illness, a disorder rather than a disease. If you pick someone with borderline personality disorder don't be surprised if they lash out and get into rages over minor things. It's the same with alcoholism ... alcoholics believe they have to drink, they have no choice. At the same time, he made the decision to go on drinking rather than getting help.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
I second and third all who say that yes, the DSM classifies it as a disease (one of mental health)... But that doesn't negate your right to be angry.
A close friend of my family has a daughter with schizophrenia. NO ONE tolerates the abuse the schizophrenic daughter inflicts on others when she chooses to go off her meds.
Sure the disease tells her to go off the meds and it's part of the cycle. But her family holds her accountable, the police get involved, there are limts, legal and otherwise on her behavior- disease or not.
Only with alcoholism do we feel we have to continue to be metaphorical punching bags to someone elses disorder/disease...
A close friend of my family has a daughter with schizophrenia. NO ONE tolerates the abuse the schizophrenic daughter inflicts on others when she chooses to go off her meds.
Sure the disease tells her to go off the meds and it's part of the cycle. But her family holds her accountable, the police get involved, there are limts, legal and otherwise on her behavior- disease or not.
Only with alcoholism do we feel we have to continue to be metaphorical punching bags to someone elses disorder/disease...
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Batavia
Posts: 15
Thank you for your replies. The reassurance is helpful as I don't really have anyone to talk to and my family doesn't understand.
I made the mistake of stopping by our old apartment today in the guise of getting more of my things. I think I just wanted to catch him drinking... We got into a fight and he said it all wasn't his fault, that I was driving him crazy with my problems too (anxiety- which has increases ten-fold since dating him). Then he says how much he loves and misses me. I just said "**** you...don't manipulate me...ALL of our problems are because of your drinking." And I told him not to contact me until he makes real and long term changes. Of course, he called twice after that, but I didn't answer.
I made the mistake of stopping by our old apartment today in the guise of getting more of my things. I think I just wanted to catch him drinking... We got into a fight and he said it all wasn't his fault, that I was driving him crazy with my problems too (anxiety- which has increases ten-fold since dating him). Then he says how much he loves and misses me. I just said "**** you...don't manipulate me...ALL of our problems are because of your drinking." And I told him not to contact me until he makes real and long term changes. Of course, he called twice after that, but I didn't answer.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,872
Oread-oh my -what a classic alcoholic line...I once was told my Being stressed about breastfeeding caused my then husband to get trashed and curse me out. Yep-it was my boob that poured the bottle down his throat.
See? Abything you do is an excuse to drink-if only you were perfect then they wouldn't have to drink. You aren't allowed to be anything for fear it will cause the A to drink.
Stay strong.
See? Abything you do is an excuse to drink-if only you were perfect then they wouldn't have to drink. You aren't allowed to be anything for fear it will cause the A to drink.
Stay strong.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Oread.....exactly what do you consider to be "real and long-term changes"?
Are you aware that early recovery is considered, by most in the recovery community to be one to 2 years?
And....that is when they are intensly working a program with sobriety as their number one priority.....
I think it would be wise of you to learn everything you can about the nature and natural history of alcoholism.
the stickies at the top of the main page (just above the threads) are a virtual bootcamp introduction into alcoholism and co-dependency.....
Knowledge can change your life...it can save y our life....
Knowledge is power......
Just because he doesn't know what he is doing.....doesn't mean that you have to be...lol.....
dandylion
Are you aware that early recovery is considered, by most in the recovery community to be one to 2 years?
And....that is when they are intensly working a program with sobriety as their number one priority.....
I think it would be wise of you to learn everything you can about the nature and natural history of alcoholism.
the stickies at the top of the main page (just above the threads) are a virtual bootcamp introduction into alcoholism and co-dependency.....
Knowledge can change your life...it can save y our life....
Knowledge is power......
Just because he doesn't know what he is doing.....doesn't mean that you have to be...lol.....
dandylion
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
there are a lot of LEVELS of problem drinkers....often they all grouped as ALCOHOLICS, but even the AA Big Book breaks it down. In Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism which i believe should be required reading for anyone visiting this forum.
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt3.pdf
Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!
Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums-we could increase the list ad infinitum.
~From the book, Alcoholics Anonymous -- Chapter 3, pages 30-31
"Some of you are thinking: “Yes, what you tell us is true, but it doesn’t fully apply. We admit we have some of these symptoms, but we have not gone to the extremes you fellows did, nor are we likely to, for we understand ourselves so well after what you have told us that such things cannot happen again. We have not lost everything in life through drinking and we certainly do not intend to. Thanks for the information.”
That may be true of certain nonalcoholic people who, though drinking foolishly and heavily at the present time, are able to stop or moderate, because their brains and bodies have not been damaged as ours were. But the actual or potential alcoholic, with hardly an exception, will be absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge. This is a point we wish to emphasize and re-emphasize, to smash home upon our alcoholic readers as it has been revealed to us out of bitter experience." ~pages 38-39, Alcoholics Anonymous.
We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition."
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt3.pdf
Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!
Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums-we could increase the list ad infinitum.
~From the book, Alcoholics Anonymous -- Chapter 3, pages 30-31
"Some of you are thinking: “Yes, what you tell us is true, but it doesn’t fully apply. We admit we have some of these symptoms, but we have not gone to the extremes you fellows did, nor are we likely to, for we understand ourselves so well after what you have told us that such things cannot happen again. We have not lost everything in life through drinking and we certainly do not intend to. Thanks for the information.”
That may be true of certain nonalcoholic people who, though drinking foolishly and heavily at the present time, are able to stop or moderate, because their brains and bodies have not been damaged as ours were. But the actual or potential alcoholic, with hardly an exception, will be absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge. This is a point we wish to emphasize and re-emphasize, to smash home upon our alcoholic readers as it has been revealed to us out of bitter experience." ~pages 38-39, Alcoholics Anonymous.
We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition."
Alive in the Superunknown
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: 30.47ºN, 98.15ºW
Posts: 1,460
I am an alcoholic. I'm not sure whether or not it's a disease, but the fact is that I am responsible for my own actions, good or bad. There is no excuse for the way I treated my ex-girlfriend, and I don't blame her for her anger and our current broken state. These things are the consequences of the choices I made, and an important aspect of recovery is accepting responsibility for my own actions.
If he's still blaming his disease, or you, he hasn't accepted a basic tenet of recovery.
If he's still blaming his disease, or you, he hasn't accepted a basic tenet of recovery.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: middle of nowhere
Posts: 2,849
I have a confession to make. I come here often to read because you all keep me humble. You remind me I'm more than just a label and I'm in control of my actions.
I am an alcoholic. One thing I learned through you all is to think long and hard about my thoughts and feelings before verbalizing them. I've become very mistrusting of my own motivations. I'd sooner close people off then tell them half truths when I'm not even really Sure what the truth is.
I am a person who has done bad things and said horrible things. I no longer want to be that person. Even if I do choose to relapse I'd rather let that happen a thousand times than to ever become the abusive person I was again. It doesn't matter if it's a disease does it really? Like many others have said there's never an excuse for abuse like that. No matter what the disease.
I hope you can find the strength to shut the door on him firmly and the peace to be able to heal. And I hope for his own sake he finds some courage to get help.
I often feel despair coming and reading here the stories you all have had to endure.
But I do believe if you are in a place of dealing with somebody in recovery, TRUE recovery... you will be met with a lot of humility and respect even if a relapse happens. True recovery is deeper healing, we do not step all over others trying to reach some magic mile marker. We step forward and work towards making our lives entirely whole and healthy.
I hope you take care of you. This is such a good place with so many amazing people. I'm grateful to be able to share in your stories here. You've all taught me more about myself than I could ever explain.
I am an alcoholic. One thing I learned through you all is to think long and hard about my thoughts and feelings before verbalizing them. I've become very mistrusting of my own motivations. I'd sooner close people off then tell them half truths when I'm not even really Sure what the truth is.
I am a person who has done bad things and said horrible things. I no longer want to be that person. Even if I do choose to relapse I'd rather let that happen a thousand times than to ever become the abusive person I was again. It doesn't matter if it's a disease does it really? Like many others have said there's never an excuse for abuse like that. No matter what the disease.
I hope you can find the strength to shut the door on him firmly and the peace to be able to heal. And I hope for his own sake he finds some courage to get help.
I often feel despair coming and reading here the stories you all have had to endure.
But I do believe if you are in a place of dealing with somebody in recovery, TRUE recovery... you will be met with a lot of humility and respect even if a relapse happens. True recovery is deeper healing, we do not step all over others trying to reach some magic mile marker. We step forward and work towards making our lives entirely whole and healthy.
I hope you take care of you. This is such a good place with so many amazing people. I'm grateful to be able to share in your stories here. You've all taught me more about myself than I could ever explain.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
D, don't despair. What happened, happened. We can't undo the past--any of us. It sounds to me like you've got (or are getting) your head screwed on straight again, and that's HUGE. There will be lots of time ahead for you to be the person you want to be.
Hugs,
Hugs,
Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Western US
Posts: 8,982
Hey all, great discussion.
I second the bit about anger is just an emotion. It isn't good or bad; it is just a natural reaction to existence and circumstances. To me anger is just like bleeding; it happens when you have been hurt.
Special thanks to the Recovering Alcoholics who have posted. It gives me hope that it is possible and you all always seem to reinforce thinking about good non-codie behavior.
I second the bit about anger is just an emotion. It isn't good or bad; it is just a natural reaction to existence and circumstances. To me anger is just like bleeding; it happens when you have been hurt.
Special thanks to the Recovering Alcoholics who have posted. It gives me hope that it is possible and you all always seem to reinforce thinking about good non-codie behavior.
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