Trolling the aa forum
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Originally Posted by FireSprite 
What a great thread on such a sensitive topic. 
I know I've had moments when I've been sensitive to this the way the OP describes. I could not comprehend how we had the "same problem" but needed different solutions.
I do appreciate how sobriety HAS to be the #1 focus for a good while in order for a person to really wrestle their addiction. I know that even in my own Codie recovery, there are times when I *have* to focus solely on me & my world in order to work through some healing & it is always shocking to me when others around me take that personally.
I also think that SR is a resource people use differently so we are never getting a 3D perspective of ALL that a person struggles with - just what they POST about. For the record, I have read a great number of posts from the A side about facing the shame & remorse of having hurt the people closest to them. I've also seen in my RAH's journey that this seems to be one of the most difficult areas/emotions for him to manage because once he really saw it, it was just so incredibly overwhelming. None of my being validated takes away any of his humiliation anyway, they are separate issues.
And let's face it - addicts are more likely than codies (generally speaking) to be "selfish" in recovery while they learn to tone it down into self-care. Meantime we Codies have to learn to prioritize ourselves & understand that IT IS OK & even necessary to self-care. Sometimes it feels like we judge "them" for doing naturally what "we" struggle to learn (& vice versa), but in reality it's that we're both operating from such extreme opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
There was also a point in my recovery when I "heard" myself holding this judgment against him & it occurred to me that it was a very selfish mindset to resent him for not prioritizing me/my needs in HIS recovery. (this is strictly my POV; not trying to offend anyone else here) My secondary thought was that holding that expectation was also tying me to another type of external validation of my pain & experiences instead of internally accepting that My Perspective & Feelings about the matter were Enough.
His words could never erase or soothe the past - but changing my mindset about my side of the fence has helped me to accept those amends when he HAS made them. Otherwise his words would have always seemed to pale in comparison to the size of the resentments I was expecting to heal with them, because it's actions not words that matter to me in the long run.
I know I've had moments when I've been sensitive to this the way the OP describes. I could not comprehend how we had the "same problem" but needed different solutions.
I do appreciate how sobriety HAS to be the #1 focus for a good while in order for a person to really wrestle their addiction. I know that even in my own Codie recovery, there are times when I *have* to focus solely on me & my world in order to work through some healing & it is always shocking to me when others around me take that personally.
I also think that SR is a resource people use differently so we are never getting a 3D perspective of ALL that a person struggles with - just what they POST about. For the record, I have read a great number of posts from the A side about facing the shame & remorse of having hurt the people closest to them. I've also seen in my RAH's journey that this seems to be one of the most difficult areas/emotions for him to manage because once he really saw it, it was just so incredibly overwhelming. None of my being validated takes away any of his humiliation anyway, they are separate issues.
And let's face it - addicts are more likely than codies (generally speaking) to be "selfish" in recovery while they learn to tone it down into self-care. Meantime we Codies have to learn to prioritize ourselves & understand that IT IS OK & even necessary to self-care. Sometimes it feels like we judge "them" for doing naturally what "we" struggle to learn (& vice versa), but in reality it's that we're both operating from such extreme opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
There was also a point in my recovery when I "heard" myself holding this judgment against him & it occurred to me that it was a very selfish mindset to resent him for not prioritizing me/my needs in HIS recovery. (this is strictly my POV; not trying to offend anyone else here) My secondary thought was that holding that expectation was also tying me to another type of external validation of my pain & experiences instead of internally accepting that My Perspective & Feelings about the matter were Enough.
His words could never erase or soothe the past - but changing my mindset about my side of the fence has helped me to accept those amends when he HAS made them. Otherwise his words would have always seemed to pale in comparison to the size of the resentments I was expecting to heal with them, because it's actions not words that matter to me in the long run.
Sometimes it seems like Codies and Alkies are mirror images: exactly the same and exactly the opposite. Maybe Alkies need to learn to be constructively selfless and Codies need to learn to be constructively selfish.
Once I accepted a lot of the reality of the addiction of my qualifier and my part and choice in the matter, any verbal apology on his part didn't really change anything. I also believe (about him as well as most of us) that he was doing the best he could at the time; his best was crap but it was still his best. I feel a certain kinship with him when I recognize the same mybestiscrap paradox in my own behavior.
A further observation on humanity and owning faults is that people are just NOT good at this - addict, codie or anyone. Being "right" is probably one of the biggest addiction for us all. Owning fault or wrong is really really hard for most of us.
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That being said... maybe you could start a thread asking alcoholics and addicts to speak about the people they hurt and how they "made amends" or repaid some of that emotional debt. I think you would get a very positive response.
Sometimes it seems like Codies and Alkies are mirror images: exactly the same and exactly the opposite. Maybe Alkies need to learn to be constructively selfless and Codies need to learn to be constructively selfish.
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My primary focus is Alanon, but I have been to many, many open AA meetings where I could give a **** if they express remorse for the damage they have done. That's not why they are there-- they are there to find and maintain sobriety and that's where, more often that not, the focus lies. And, IMHO, that's exactly right. AA is for sobriety, Alanon is for everything else.
Alcoholism isn't romantic-- it doesn't care. Hallmark cards and movies of the week would have us believe in the idea of seeing hearts and souls, but in recovery, yearning for things that may never happen and that you can't control is counter to healing. Closure comes from within, not from somebody seeing your heart and soul, saying they are sorry, or having some kind of "come to Jesus." Honesty is the ultimate connection between humans, not love. Love is the least important part of relationships and recovery except for the idea of loving yourself. As most of us here already know, "Love heals all" is a complete crock.
I have a long way to go in my recovery, but one of the best things that has happened for me is that fact that I no longer need her to say she's sorry-- I don't need closure and that has freed me to be less miserable and even happy sometimes.
And, in regards to alcoholics, I don't need to feel resentment towards them-- they resent themselves enough already-- most of them anyway.
My two cents.
Cyranoak
Alcoholism isn't romantic-- it doesn't care. Hallmark cards and movies of the week would have us believe in the idea of seeing hearts and souls, but in recovery, yearning for things that may never happen and that you can't control is counter to healing. Closure comes from within, not from somebody seeing your heart and soul, saying they are sorry, or having some kind of "come to Jesus." Honesty is the ultimate connection between humans, not love. Love is the least important part of relationships and recovery except for the idea of loving yourself. As most of us here already know, "Love heals all" is a complete crock.
I have a long way to go in my recovery, but one of the best things that has happened for me is that fact that I no longer need her to say she's sorry-- I don't need closure and that has freed me to be less miserable and even happy sometimes.
And, in regards to alcoholics, I don't need to feel resentment towards them-- they resent themselves enough already-- most of them anyway.
My two cents.
Cyranoak
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,497
I used to resent that my mother never talked about the pain she caused us children. When I became a mother myself, I realized that perhaps she could not bear to even think about that fact, but that it was hard enough for her to just stay sober, and rebuild her relationships with her grown children as best she could.
I've made some mistakes that I cannot bear to think of, and have learned that I must forgive myself in order to move forward.
If we could walk in each others shoes for just a while, we'd understand so much more.
I've made some mistakes that I cannot bear to think of, and have learned that I must forgive myself in order to move forward.
If we could walk in each others shoes for just a while, we'd understand so much more.
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^ I agree with all that has been said except the walking in another's shoes-I spent a great deal of my marriage trying to walk in my exs shoes, trying to understand, trying so hard-and THAT only kept me stuck with an abusive alcoholic. The years I spent trying to understand him should have been spent trying to understand ME! (Which has been my focus over the last few years). Not to generalize, but some of us have exs that literally don't care what they've done-don't care who they hurt or continue to hurt, children included, so my perspective is a little different on this. I could care less to understand why my ex thinks it's ok to abuse, manipulate and lie-I don't care. I just know it's not right. 
Just my two cents.
Just my two cents.
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