DesertEyes

Oh yeah, forgot to spell it out. ISA = Incest Survivors Anonymous, they're generally private, closed meetings that come out of ACoA (Adult Children of Alcohlics). The "heavies" are, in turn, a subgroup of ISA.

Mike

teatreeoil007

I know many non-addicts who have been abusers or are abusive...

redatlanta

My husband is sorry for what he put people through, what he has put me through ehe he relapsed. I do think he is most sorry for himself, and I don't mean that in a bad way. When the subject comes up he will say how he wishes he never drank, how he wishes he could change that. He does have lifetime chronic health issues due to alcoholism. I think he is sorry that he wasted SOOOOOO much time drinking. I think he can't remember a lot of the bad things he did because he was drunk.

When I have done harmful things to others its really myself I harmed the most. Its hard to forgive ourselves and move on, its much easier to forgive someone else.

I don't believe that A's as a whole aren't remorseful toward those they have hurt. How do you make up for it? You can say "sorry", you can recover, but you can't actually bring back, and replace the years of pain. I wonder how often the codependent/enabler says "sorry"?

Bottom line IMO forgiveness of ourselves and our contributions whether it be as the addict or the codie/enabler is more important than focusing on the hurt and pain we have caused to others. It is best to stop the behavior, and not do it in the future, rather than try and make up for what you have done because you CAN'T. The amends process is important, saying your sorry is important, being sober and/or changing codependent enabling behaviors is most important. I understand why the Alcoholic Forum is lacking (if it is I don't read it much) in much discussion of the pain caused.

sugarbear1

I am self centered and self loathing.

I know what I've done to others, especially after working through my stuff.

For me, it's taken almost 5 years, and I am just now repairing the damage of my past with those I love.

Give time time.

First, I get sober, then I face my past, then I can move on to the amends with others.

I'm selfish. Unfortunately, it's part of my nature, along with fear and pride.

FireSprite

What a great thread on such a sensitive topic.

I know I've had moments when I've been sensitive to this the way the OP describes. I could not comprehend how we had the "same problem" but needed different solutions.

I do appreciate how sobriety HAS to be the #1 focus for a good while in order for a person to really wrestle their addiction. I know that even in my own Codie recovery, there are times when I *have* to focus solely on me & my world in order to work through some healing & it is always shocking to me when others around me take that personally.

I also think that SR is a resource people use differently so we are never getting a 3D perspective of ALL that a person struggles with - just what they POST about. For the record, I have read a great number of posts from the A side about facing the shame & remorse of having hurt the people closest to them. I've also seen in my RAH's journey that this seems to be one of the most difficult areas/emotions for him to manage because once he really saw it, it was just so incredibly overwhelming. None of my being validated takes away any of his humiliation anyway, they are separate issues.

And let's face it - addicts are more likely than codies (generally speaking) to be "selfish" in recovery while they learn to tone it down into self-care. Meantime we Codies have to learn to prioritize ourselves & understand that IT IS OK & even necessary to self-care. Sometimes it feels like we judge "them" for doing naturally what "we" struggle to learn (& vice versa), but in reality it's that we're both operating from such extreme opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.

There was also a point in my recovery when I "heard" myself holding this judgment against him & it occurred to me that it was a very selfish mindset to resent him for not prioritizing me/my needs in HIS recovery. (this is strictly my POV; not trying to offend anyone else here) My secondary thought was that holding that expectation was also tying me to another type of external validation of my pain & experiences instead of internally accepting that My Perspective & Feelings about the matter were Enough.

His words could never erase or soothe the past - but changing my mindset about my side of the fence has helped me to accept those amends when he HAS made them. Otherwise his words would have always seemed to pale in comparison to the size of the resentments I was expecting to heal with them, because it's actions not words that matter to me in the long run.

firebolt

I feel that alcoholics and codependents are about 1 degree of separation from each other. What ever causes us all to fork at that Y....be it one extra butt kicking as a kid, one less hug, whatever it is, it is undeniable that many codies that escaped a relationship with an addict end up becoming one themselves...let alone the love addict implications of codependency itself.

I agree - I'd love to see more "i'm sorry, i'll get better" and then the subsequent action from my ex....but the bottom lines are that

I did and said abusive things too, and acted like I hated him at times too.
I withdrew and blamed too.
I was very, very angry - a lot of the time.
I internalized things that were not mine.
I expected another person to make me a happy person.
I stayed far, far too long.
I was also blind to my issues.
I was just as unhealthy.

We can weigh who's wrongs were worse, and we can scale up who tried harder, and we can try and measure who is more sorry, but that's not recovery.

I apologized to my ex for the crappy things I did, but I am not going to wallow in it. I am still working on my anger there and I have WAY too much work to do yet on myself.

Should my ex ever seek recovery and apologize, it's logical that it would be the same way for him.

FireSprite

{Playing devil's advocate conversationally here for a moment here, I hope you don't take offense.}

You know how we say stuff like, "You can take the alcohol out of the abuser but it doesn't stop the abuse", etc? Like, a lot of times alcohol simply masks other traits but at first glance it's easy to assume that they are related.

I know a LOT of sober people who have never struggled with addiction who are SO incredibly unaware that it can be positively mindblowing. And they are in NO way interested in seeking awareness, thank you very much, so they can never relate to the pain in others or the pain that they cause others. They would rather chew their tongues in half than to swallow their pride & own their hurtful behavior. Do you think that sometimes it's just a human trait on some level, with no regard to that person having had struggles with addiction?

Do you think a person can get sober but still lack perspective/empathy for others because their experiences/memories simply never connect the dots in that way going backward, even if they develop the tools going forward?

Refiner

I was going to add my $0.02 on the selfishness of the people who are addicts lending to this... but I see many have chimed in on this fact. BUT, now that I've got you... don't mean to highjack but it's not worth starting a thread to find out... what does AA stand for? Isn't it Alcholics Anonymous? Therefore, doesn't Al-Anon stand for the same thing? I've always wondered that.

honeypig

firebolt, what a great post ^^! I know I found it hard to admit that I had any part in the problems myself. I mean, I knew I hadn't acted right, but that was b/c of him, right?

I do have feelings of anger and resentment at times, but I'm gradually learning to 1) remind myself that I chose to stay, and 2) remember times when I acted equally badly in my own way. It is hard to say, think or type "equally badly"--I always want to think that his sins are worse than mine.

I've posted elsewhere about suddenly having the memory of the first time I found money unaccounted for in our bank account and got a snide answer when I asked about it. I chose to let that go underground. I chose to ignore it. Yes, I married him and I trusted him, but when evidence to the contrary showed up, as an adult being responsible for myself, I should have looked into the facts, and I did not do that. I can cry about being a victim of someone I loved, but the hard truth is that I failed to look out for myself. I didn't cause it, I didn't deserve it, but I did nothing to stop it either.

For that, I am totally and completely responsible.

Refiner

Here's what Google gave me in case anyone is interested: Al-Anon was first called AA Family Group. But AA objected to the use of the letters "AA" in the name of the national association of non-alcoholics since their Sixth Tradition stated that an AA group ought never lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise. The hyphen was included because there are, in many locations in the U.S. and Canada, AA Clubhouses that call themselves Alanon or Alano. The hyphen also identifies Al-Anon as a distinct organization.

DesertEyes

Technically, yes. That is the name of the organization as well as the title of the book. However, that was nearly 100 years ago. The organization and the "program" have been keeping up with the times and the latest research on addiction. For example, the medical knowledge of the "disease concept" did not exist when a handful of ex-drunks branched away from the Oxford Groups and started AA. The term "recovery", and everything it implies, did not yet exist.

There has been a lot of talk, but not much action, about changing the "AA" to mean "Attitude Adjustment."

Al-anon started when some of the wives of the above ex-drunks were hanging around a kitchen table waiting for their husbands to be done chit-chatting about their problem with booze. They began to realize that there was something wrong with all the abuse and degradation they _tolerated_ at the hands of the men when they were drunk, perhaps they could look into their own issues by using the same "program".

Some years later the wives around the kitchen table had exploded into a fellowship just as big as AA and started to have an "image" problem. They did not have a name, or a book. Some wanted to use the same "Alcoholics Anonymous" name for the spouse-group, others wanted _nothing_ to do with that bunch of ex-drunks. Eventually they compromised on "Al-anon".

Today both groups go to great lengths to point out that they do not stand for simple abstinence, whether from chemicals or obsessions. Abstinence is just the first half of the first step. The groups stand for _recovery_, from _all_ the behaviors and obsessions that are involved in this "family disease."

Mike
Moderator, SR

Refiner

Thanks, Mike. Interesting. I'm actually pretty shocked that they would want their name even associated with the alcoholics (Alcoholics Anonymous) that have wreaked havoc in their lives.

honeypig

Times were different then, I think, Refiner--I bet a LOT more of those early wives stayed married than nowadays. They simply didn't have the options that we do. The whole scene was likely very, very different in some ways (but horrifyingly the same in others...).

firebolt

Man, that's the truth.
I was a psycho because he was. HE made me crazy. I could act poorly to him because he was always worse. I didn't have to apologize because he didn't. He didn't deserve for me to treat him kind. DAY-YUM.

Part of my recovery has been working through the shame of how I acted, the shame of what I put myself through, and the roots of why I put myself in that position. That has been quite a quest...and that to me right now if I want to stay this course, is far more important than making it up to him. I imagine that if EXABF should ever embrace recovery, it would be similar for him as well.

Liveitwell

Firebolt and Honeypig-fantastic words....seriously. Word for word exactly my experience as well. Thank you for sharing!!

honeypig

Yes, once I get past the heavy curtain of denial and feeling like a victim, I wade right into the big huge endless bottomless swamps of SHAME, in capital letters. Maybe he turned out not to be my Knight in Shining Armor, but holy carpfish, I was no prize myself!!

I'm thankful for a recovery friend who has made sure I have access to all the Brene Brown I could ever want--Brene's work dealing with shame has been so important to me in beginning to understand this aspect of it ("beginning" being the operative word--there is a lifetime of dysfunction to deal with).

DesertEyes

According to the al-anon history books it was a marketing thing. They wanted people to "connect" the well-known AA name with the group for spouses and piggy-backing on the same name was an easy way to do that.

The "family groups" concept did not come out 'till the late 60's and early 70's when the effect on the kids was first studied by the medical community. There was a book titled "The forgotten children" that started that whole movement in the community. Ten years after that is when the Adult Children of Alcoholics program kicked off.

* self <= is a total history and theory-of-psych nerd *

Mike

Hangnbyathread

Here is the way I look at it.

By the time I knew I was done with my ex., she was saying some vicious things about me. It didn't matter what she said, did or implied about me, as long as she wasn't in my life any longer. I knew I wasn't any of those things. But as long as we were together, I was always going to be the reason, the problem and the enemy. Just like I remember her saying about her previous exes.

That was the beginning of positive taking back of my life.

Until that happened, I gave up waiting on the I'm sorry's (where they felt meaningful), the amends, the change in lifestyle, the change in people associations.

She took up with drunks before, she takes up with them now, and she still leads the life that will keep her close to the life she had.

But she will be doing it without me.

And that makes me happiest of all.

minime13

I think this is a natural reaction when you're first coming to terms with an alcoholic partner and you start thinking about taking your own life back. Resentment is a natural feeling, and it's good to work through it all. Just like in grieving a loss - there's no single right way to do it.

If I had started reading those posts when I first started coming here, I would certainly have had a different reaction to them than I do now. I am so glad I didn't start checking out the "other side" of the board until I had worked out a few of my own issues.

That right there is the key - you are now in the hands of your own life, the only one you can control. The beginning is difficult, whether you are a loved one of an addict or alcoholic, or whether you are an addict or alcoholic. It's because you're not well, and you have a problem that you need to face. There's also a reason why the steps of recovery (if that is the path being taken) are laid on in the way they are laid out. A person has to gain some control of themselves before they can really understand the ways they have hurt others.

The biggest challenge in early recovery, on either side, is accepting what they cannot control. I sometimes wonder if that's a harder struggle for the friends and family of the alcoholic, but we all see things from our own perspective better than another's. When a person is on the right path of recovery, and has been on that right path, then point of view on both sides seems to become a little more aligned.

Getting out feelings - negative or otherwise, is great. What counts after that is how those feelings are processed. If a positive outlook for yourself cannot yet be gained, then try to keep realizing that there are simply some things you cannot control.

I think this is a great discussion, though. It opens up the dynamics of both sides of the addiction in a very respectful manner.

POAndrea

YES! THIS!!!!!

I know I acted badly on more occasions than I care to admit, but it is very difficult to discuss it in a productive way. (Granted, my A is deceased, but I'm sure there are plenty of other ways and with other people to make amends.) It's so dang hard to admit to ourselves, much less to others, when we've done wrong. To acknowledge the deep shame and regret that comes with that awareness of how what we've done and said affected those around us is, at times, just too much to bear.

While it is so deeply unsatisfying to never have heard my husband acknowledge the hurt he caused me, I've decided it isn't particularly healthy for me to sit too long with that feeling. I just try to remember my discomfort when addressing my own shortcomings and presume he felt just as bad as I would. (Doesn't necessarily make it TRUE, just easier to deal with.)