Let's Talk About Love

Old 02-13-2016, 08:23 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus View Post
In that sense, love is surrender. We compromise, we care for our other more than ourselves, and somehow we still retain our own identity.
I used to think this way, but I've learned that it's best NEVER to surrender judgment. Nor is it ever a good thing to care for anther more than myself.

I'm not saying this from a selfish perspective, but rather I have learned that ALL people are flawed to some degree, including myself. We have our good moments and our bad moments; our achievements and our moments of crises.

And most of all, people change over time. Our needs change, our dreams change. If I put another person up on a pedestal, and try to freeze a "perfect" relationship in amber, then I am only surrendering my own judgment, my own responsibility as an autonomous individual to hold others accountable for their behavior toward me.

So many of us here on this side of the forum (myself included) have, in our search for a misguided notion of love, blinded ourselves to who are partners are, and tried to make them into something that they are not, and that they don't even necessarily want to be. This is a terrible burden to place on someone else.

Even worse, some of us open ourselves up to real damage and abuse. When we expect another person to ALWAYS be there for us, to ALWAYS act in our best interest, to NEVER do anything that might hurt us, that is unrealistic. We end up accepting whatever treatment they dish out toward us. This is an abdication of our own responsibility to ourselves and to a relationship.
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Old 02-13-2016, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DesertEyes View Post
If I suddenly find myself trusting her 100%, all of a sudden, right out the gate, then I am looking at a huge red flag in _me_. If she gets all google-eyed on our first date, tells me she wants to name our first child after me, and that she will adore me forever... that is a red flag on _her_. . . . . .

. . . . When it comes to relationships, I have just as many red flags on my side of the street as my partner does.

I am not supposed to give my partner the power to hurt me. If I pay attention to all the red flags, including the ones that are waving above _my_ head, then I will be able to see the hurt _before_ it gets to me.
This!

But for us codies, our dysfunctions and the addict's dysfunctions fit like together like gloves....we both sit there google-eyed and lose ourselves on that first date, and then a few months or years later wake up and wonder what the hell happened!
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Old 02-13-2016, 09:32 AM
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THANK YOU NAB! I think one of the most important ingredients is not to lose yourself in someone else. Do NOT depend on someone else to make you "whole". Be happy with who you are socially, financially, and intimately (eg not afraid to be alone and aren't lonely "needing" someone else. If you find someone else of same mind and you both have love, trust and respect for each other, then that's just a bonus that should work long term.
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:49 AM
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I'll just be completely honest....I've left my alcoholic experience jaded on men and love. I live in a big city where men "use" older women to try to reel us in and well I'll be frank get sex. I feel like men have the upper hand in life - they become distinguished we get "old". I just feel like for me I'm not meant to be in a relationship ever with a man....all men do for me is cause heartache and act controlling. I'm so tired of trying to look nice for a man, trying to act nice for a man and putting up with a man's crap. Thank god I have a good career and make decent money and don't need a man in my life - sometimes I feel like the only smart thing I did in my life was make this career for myself. When I waste time dating or looking to meet men all it does is upset me and make me see human beings in a negative light. Being with a man makes me feel "less than"....mainly because they all end up being disappointments. Yes I've had a recent bad dating experience (so maybe I'll feel differently tomorrow).....but this seems to be the rule not the exception. Older men want 20 year old women and younger men want to use older women.

Maybe for me love is my passion of trying to have a family and give of myself to a child. I do not think for me love involves a traditional relationship or a man. Sorry to be a debbie downer.....but this is just how I'm feeling today right now. I feel like as a woman society has conditioned me to feel unworthy and incapable without a man and I think as a woman that holds me back in life. And it frustrates the hell out of me.....I worry that the one embryo I do have from my IVF is a girl (assuming the implantation goes well)....I do not want her to have to deal with men in society today. I wish things were different and love and relationships weren't such a societal focus.
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Old 02-15-2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Aeryn View Post
... I'll just be completely honest...
No worries Aeryn, I have seen everything you mention out there in the dating world.

Originally Posted by Aeryn View Post
... I do not think for me love involves a traditional relationship or a man. Sorry to be a debbie downer... ....
Not a downer at all. Where I live traditional relationships are pretty much a museum piece.

Originally Posted by Aeryn View Post
... I feel like as a woman society has conditioned me to feel ....
I think you are absolutely right. I helped raise a few teens and I have seen that "brainwashing" in action.

Originally Posted by Aeryn View Post
... When I waste time dating or looking to meet men all it does is upset me and make me see human beings in a negative light. ....
Well yeah, same with me when I go out dating women. There was a stretch there when I hit _four_ women in a row who turned out to be married. I don't know if the whole world is full of these disgusting people, or maybe it's just that the "dating scene" attracts them like rats to garbage.

Mike
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Old 02-15-2016, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DesertEyes View Post
No worries Aeryn, I have seen everything you mention out there in the dating world.



Not a downer at all. Where I live traditional relationships are pretty much a museum piece.



I think you are absolutely right. I helped raise a few teens and I have seen that "brainwashing" in action.



Well yeah, same with me when I go out dating women. There was a stretch there when I hit _four_ women in a row who turned out to be married. I don't know if the whole world is full of these disgusting people, or maybe it's just that the "dating scene" attracts them like rats to garbage.

Mike
This made me smile! Glad I'm not alone in this crappy dating game!
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Old 02-15-2016, 12:58 PM
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Aeryn -- I know exactly how you feel and was there myself a few years ago. I pretty much gave up the "having someone special in my life" and just went on dates to have some fun and get out of my house. Until "Mr. Right" came along and just fit perfectly for who I am at this point in my life. If fact, it was weird for him to be dating someone who "didn't NEED him"... hahaha... but it was refreshing to him and he liked how independent I am. So we were not just lovers, we became best friends, too. And we WANTED to be around each other all the time. We each had a house and I wasn't about to "shack up", though. So we got married, LOL.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:20 PM
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I love this conversation! And I love all of you. There is so much to learn, and I so much appreciate everyone's experiences and thoughts.

In retrospect, one of the biggest "non-alcoholism" red flags at the beginning of my relationship with STBXAH (who was sober and in recovery at the time) was a series of comments he made that went straight to the heart of what Refiner said above. It was clear that he subscribed to the entire "we make each other whole" and "you are responsible for at least some of my happiness" stuff. I am glad to say that I am not even remotely interested in that dynamic in my life anymore.

I'm being very, very gentle with myself on all of this. I have met someone nice, who treats me very well, and we are taking things very slowly (an approach that is aided by the fact that he lives 90 miles away). And even though he has never...not once...given me any reason to doubt his words and actions (and amazingly, his actions are consistent with his words, which is totally new for me), there is still a really big part of me that is waiting for the other shoe to drop. Part of it is, I think, a healthy skepticism and heightened relationship radar after what I've gone through. But I also don't want to get bogged down in unhealthy patterns of doubt and mistrust for the rest of my life. For right now, it's just something I'm trying to stay self-aware about. I still have a lot of healing to do, and my recovery work will last for the rest of my life.
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Old 02-15-2016, 06:43 PM
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Healthy grown up love to me is a lot about friendship. Cause after the honeymoon phase wears off and the relationship progresses, the physical goes through cycles of attraction. The passion goes through cycles too.....it never goes away (or shouldn't) it just hibernates for periods of time when "life" takes hold.

Its during those waning periods that the relationship grows roots, and deep, lasting love. its friendship that will always carry a relationship because they are all hard, and all suck at some point and time. Like Anvil said, sometimes I want to kill my husband, but I would never hurt my friend. Sometimes I'd like to get a divorce and be single, but I can't be without my friend. Then the moon rises again, the love and passion kick back in, and I am madly in love. Its pretty cool.
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Old 02-15-2016, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Needabreak View Post
And most of all, people change over time. Our needs change, our dreams change. If I put another person up on a pedestal, and try to freeze a "perfect" relationship in amber, then I am only surrendering my own judgment, my own responsibility as an autonomous individual to hold others accountable for their behavior toward me.

This, yes. Love is fluid, changing, flexible. Love doesn't erode who we are individually & is a place where we feel free to be our authentic selves & continue growing separately & together.

I think there are a lot of different "Loves" in this world for each of us, a lot of different combinations of qualities that we can be attracted to & compatible with. I believe in immediate connections & that you can have that feeling with more than just ONE person in a lifetime. (especially since we change so much throughout our life experiences) But love builds, it isn't about that firecracker moment.

That's why I think, again, that it all comes back to Self-Love & Self-Trust first & foremost. With that in play (IMO) you are less willing to accept unloving & untrustworthy behavior from others around you in your close, personal relationships.

Great thread!
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Old 02-15-2016, 07:07 PM
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I was journaling a bit earlier tonight, thinking about how different my interactions with my new gentleman friend are from my early relationship with STBXAH. Within a month, STBXAH and I had both gotten tattoos (first tattoos for each of us, no less) of each other's names. We were engaged less than five months after we got back in touch, and were married less than five months after that. And all of this happened while we lived 500 miles apart. I got pregnant literally WEEKS after we got married.

I've been spending low-pressure, relaxing time with my new friend for about four months. No new tattoos to show off our never-before-seen-by-the-world love. No engagement (duh). No soulful professions of "you have saved me." In fact, a few weeks ago I told my new friend something along the lines of "I worked very, very hard to save MYSELF. And I like that you did the same thing. And now it's just cool that we are both in generally good places emotionally, because we are able to truly enjoy each other's company without all the manipulative, controlling, co-dependent crap." And he agreed whole-heartedly.

I think that this issue for me goes much deeper than just my experience with STBXAH. Before him, I had a long history of deliberately choosing relationships with people who felt more strongly about me than I did about them. The end result of that was always that I was never exposing myself to having my heart broken, but I was also never truly satisfied in the relationships long-term--the most glaring instance of that was my first marriage. I regret very much that I hurt my XH the way I did, and I don't ever want to treat someone that way again.

So much to think through. And of course, the perfectionist, Type A person in my is very, very uncomfortable with the idea of failing so spectacularly at love again.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Needabreak View Post
I used to think this way, but I've learned that it's best NEVER to surrender judgment. Nor is it ever a good thing to care for anther more than myself.

I'm not saying this from a selfish perspective, but rather I have learned that ALL people are flawed to some degree, including myself. We have our good moments and our bad moments; our achievements and our moments of crises.

And most of all, people change over time. Our needs change, our dreams change. If I put another person up on a pedestal, and try to freeze a "perfect" relationship in amber, then I am only surrendering my own judgment, my own responsibility as an autonomous individual to hold others accountable for their behavior toward me.

So many of us here on this side of the forum (myself included) have, in our search for a misguided notion of love, blinded ourselves to who are partners are, and tried to make them into something that they are not, and that they don't even necessarily want to be. This is a terrible burden to place on someone else.

Even worse, some of us open ourselves up to real damage and abuse. When we expect another person to ALWAYS be there for us, to ALWAYS act in our best interest, to NEVER do anything that might hurt us, that is unrealistic. We end up accepting whatever treatment they dish out toward us. This is an abdication of our own responsibility to ourselves and to a relationship.
I should have been more specific. I wasn't advocating surrendering judgment, but rather, the primacy of ego.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus View Post
I should have been more specific. I wasn't advocating surrendering judgment, but rather, the primacy of ego.
But for this to work, one has to assume that the other person in the relationship is surrendering the primacy of their ego too.

And as we see so many times on the Friends and Family Board, this is an extraordinarily dangerous thing to assume. Especially given the issues with ego that are involved with addiction.
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:42 AM
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Wisconsin, I LOVE this thread

So much Wisdom here - so happy to see your recovering thought process through a new chapter - and super thrilled about Mr. Gentleman Friend <3 <3
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Old 02-16-2016, 09:33 AM
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If I had $100 for every time I heard this:

No soulful professions of "you have saved me."

I probably could have retired wealthy around age 35.
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Old 02-16-2016, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post
If I had $100 for every time I heard this:

No soulful professions of "you have saved me."

I probably could have retired wealthy around age 35.
STBXAH was/is the only addict I ever had a relationship with, but I heard this quite a bit from him. He was a much bigger fan, though, of waxing poetic about how I had changed him for the better, and how happy I made him. I wish I could properly describe the way he said these things, because in retrospect, the sentiment along with the way he expressed it should have been a HUGE red flag for what was to come--the near-constant blaming of me for his reactions. Every time he was a jerk, it was because I did something to "make" him be a jerk (just like in the beginning, I did things to "make" him be a better person).
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Old 02-16-2016, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Needabreak View Post
But for this to work, one has to assume that the other person in the relationship is surrendering the primacy of their ego too.

And as we see so many times on the Friends and Family Board, this is an extraordinarily dangerous thing to assume. Especially given the issues with ego that are involved with addiction.
One has to see that one's partner is doing the same. That is exactly why one doesn't surrender judgement.
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Old 02-16-2016, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus View Post
One has to see that one's partner is doing the same. That is exactly why one doesn't surrender judgement.
Which is exactly the problem that so many of us codependents have. We lack discernment about people, we think "judgment" is a bad word. That if we only try hard enough, we can FIX our addict.

We get fooled. And many times it's because of our own inner issues.
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