SeriousKarma

I feel like I've hit a wall with my daughter, and I don't know what to do. I don't even know how to describe it, it's so surreal. It's like she's the same person and yet a completely different person all at the same time.

I can take her anywhere, introduce her to anyone, and I know she'll be the same sweet person she's always been. She's a lovely person to her friends, and her co-workers, and my friends, and perfect strangers. But to me, she can be holy hell.

I know it's not unusual for an 18yr old to be less than perfect around their parents, but this is more concerning than that.

I can't get her to take responsibility for the the basic daily things that everyone needs to deal with. She won't even clean the kitchen without me leaving a note for her specifying each and every task that she needs to do 1)Empty the dishwasher 2) put dirty dishes in it 3) wipe off the counters... Stuff like that. Still, more than half the time I come home and the things haven't been done. She put off applying to college so long she missed the cut off. Christmas presents she bought still haven't been mailed. etc etc etc. Basically, she never does anything she doesn't want to do.

Meanwhile... Her "special friend", who she spends all her time with, is a 28year old car-less alcoholic. Personally, I love the guy. He's intelligent, articulate, and talented, but come on! He's stuck in a rut of his own making in a "special" relationship with a girl ten years younger than him.

*(Lets be honest here, the fact that I like him is not something one should use as a measurement of whether or not to get into a relationship. The last time I met a 28year old car-less alcoholic, who was intelligent, articulate, and talented, I married him. I think we all know how that turned out.)

Oh yeah... and he's the same ethnicity as my ex.

Fraudian?

Ya think???

This is a girl who is well versed in the 12steps of Alanon. She knows the hellish path that this stuff can lead to. She sat in countless meetings. Loved and was loved by her Alanon family. But even that has fallen by the wayside. She hasn't been to a meeting in at least 6 months. Probably much more. It's like she's compelled to go down this stupid road.

And the arguing. Oh my God! It's insanity. We have the stupidest, most volatile arguments ALL THE TIME.

Then we're fine

Then we fight

Then we're fine

Then we fight

Then we're fine

I would like to say it's both of us, but it's not. It's her. She becomes like a myopic legalistic toddler any time something comes up that she doesn't want to deal with, or do. And so we stagnate. The ball never moves forward.

I know that the conventional wisdom is to lay down the law of tough love, but there's very little that I can do as far as that goes. I really don't support her financially that much. Other than rent, I don't pay for anything of hers, and she wants to move out anyway, so what threat is that?

This is just so overwhelming, and so hard to deal with by myself. My XAH, for all his faults, was fantastic at negotiating truces between my daughter and myself. He once said that his career as an infantry NCO had made him an expert at dealing with stupid teenagers. But now I'm all alone, and even though he'd like to think he could help, he's just not here in the thick of it. He doesn't even know 1/8th of what's going on. He certainly doesn't know that she's dating his doppelganger. Not quite sure how I'm gonna break that news to him. What a mess.

Anywahoo... I sure could use any experience, strength, and hope that you may want to send my way.

Thanks for listening

suki44883

I think mothers and daughters tend to feed off each other. It was true in my life and I've heard so many stories about it in other women's lives, too. Maybe it's a competitive thing. I don't know, but it seems to happen a lot.

Bekindalways

Yep I had a tough time with my mom too. I probably deserved to have a daughter like yours Seriouskarma.

It does sound like it is time for her to move out. What is important for her to get done in her life will no doubt be different than what is important to you. (Sorry to hear about the doppelganger boyfriend).

What are you doing to detach and take care of yourself? (the ever present question for us Codependents)

FeelingGreat

Hi SK; went through this myself with my daughter. Good news; it only lasts until they're 21: bad news, it lasts until they're 21. They didn't pull the age of 21 out of a hat BTW.

FWIW, after a lot of anger and annoyance and failed attempts at getting my DD to do her share, this worked fairly well for us.

1. I set an appointment for us to sit down with paper and pencil.
2. We quietly went over the actions that annoyed us about the other. Not personality things too much, more 'you don't empty the coffee plunger.' Just to clear the air, not an exercise in bringing each other down.
3. We listed the things that had to be done to keep the house going. Cleaning, shopping, cooking. Our bedrooms were our own. Maintenance was mine because I owned the house.
4. I asked her what she thought would be a fair division of the work. I was surprised that she nominated more for herself than I expected. We both wrote everything down.
5. We decided to have an evening, Thursday, that we would dedicate to doing our jobs. We would eat take-away on that night (a bit of a treat because we didn't have it often).
6. Some negotiation around if she had an event that night etc, but just common sense stuff.
7. It worked well, with only minor hiccups, and the atmosphere in the house was much improved.
8. The key in my mind was the fact that she participated in the process and agreed of her own free will.

dandylion

SeriousKarma.....I have been down the road with the emerging young adult.....3 times.....and, I can personally verify that there can be conflict....

It is the time of one of the big...BIG...developmental stages of the maturing human....Independence vs. Dependency.....It is like a brewing tension...a force within them that begins softly and slowly in the earlier teen years and reaches full steam and expression in late teens to early-mid twenties (if they are typical).
The conflict is a way of separating from the dependency of the parent-child relationship that has been their world for the first part of their development.
they are like new-born foals with wobbly legs as they try to navigate what they barely understand...but, like the baby horse, they just know that they must go forward. Of course, their brains are not even full developed, yet and they don't have the experience yet that allows them to operate from the maturity of the adult that they want to be.....
Even though they may still be dependent on the parent/s they suffer from great ambivalence of feelings.....and they frequently resent their own dependence needs and everything that reminds them of this (anything to do with the parents). Yet, at the same time...they can be terrified of the responsibilities of going into the great wide world....

It is just as bad, in it's own way, for the parent....because they are on the other end of the tug of war....Actually, many of the unresolved issues around dependence vs. independence arise in the parents...the old feelings, etc. from their own youth...bubble to the surface. this ads gasoline to the fire.....
Some of the common features---arrogance (to mask their insecurities, narcissism (normal for this age), rebellion at most anything, fluctuating moods, etc....a shocking change from the adoring children that they were ten years ago......

Most will get through it o.k....eventually...
It is a tricky time for young women though...because they can make decisions that may influence the rest of their lives. they often will grab onto a romantic relationship and make it the battleground for this life transition.

SeriousKarma...I could rattle on and on about this...lol....but there is ONE thing that, as a mother you can try to do the protect her....try to reach her with the concept of avoiding pregnancy during this precious youth of hers....
she can get rid of the doppleganger...and she can get an education later...but, pregnancy is the hardest obstacle to cope with...it will change her life the very most....

If you would like any helpful hints for YOU (dandylion style), all you have to do is ask!

lol...

dandylion

dandylion

SeriousKarma...I can give you the names of a couple of developmental psychology textbooks devoted to adolescent--through young adulthood....if you would like....
It is really fascinating stuff-- as well as illuminating......

Just let me know....

dandylion

SeriousKarma

Are they written by Steven King?

I'm off to work now. I'm going to read everyones responses a bit more closely when I get home, but thanks to everyone in advance. If nothing else, just having the confirmation that I'm not the first to go through this is helpful.

Happy Friday

redatlanta

Oh I am so sorry I know this is really stressful. I don't have any kids(and this is one reason). I was this child to a point. However, I couldn't wait to move out of the house where I would no longer have rules, so I did work hard to get into college. With that said there was no alternative - you graduated you left whether to college, or the army whatever BYE.

I think Dandy has it pegged I certainly felt invincible in my latest teens and early 20's.

I do believe there is some lack of being able to enforce your rules or boundaries. I can't exactly pinpoint what given the information - I can say when I was her age I did fear my parents, and they did hold the cards because I was financially dependent on them. They did not hesitate to use that when I got extra sh!tty or unmotivated. They owned my car, they paid for college they paid for most everything. I did have a job to pay for clothes and going out and such. It wouldn't have mattered if they didn't own my car - my dad always said "my house, my rules" and he would enforce that by taking away any privilege whether I "paid" for it or not.

I think you need to do a couple of things - first you need to call her dad and fill him in on the 7/8 of stuff "he doesn't know". Hopefully, he will get on board with helping to straighten the situation out - dunno. But at the very least its not just YOU on an island trying to manage the rebel village. She needs an exit plan with a time frame, and alternatives if she doesn't adhere to it. College applications must go in by this date.....if not then she needs to move out by this date. If she doesn't participate in cleaning and responsibilities in the home the phone will be cut off, a curfew at 11pm enforced. Car privilege taken away. 28 year old not allowed at the house. etc. This isn't tough love, its boundaries and respect. Tough love would be kicking her out without trying. Remember - its easy enough for her to live there and put up with it, or she would be gone. That's one of the reasons that she hasn't moved forward toward college or moving on. You say you financially offer her little support - where is she getting her money from? If she is working, she has to pay rent at the house.

I suppose the thoughts could veer toward laying down the law and then she moves in with the 28 year old. If she does go that route ya know there isn't anything you can do about it. She would end up there anyway IF that's what she wants.

I SO agree with Dandy, the MOST important thing here is that she NOT get pregnant. That's a forever, can't go back game changer.

Call her Dad SK.

For what its worth at 48 I still have guilt over treating my mother so horribly ( very similar to your daughter).

hopeful4

FeelingGreat....I love your ideas. I am going to do this with my daughter!

Just wanting to send lots of love and hugs from a mom of a 16 year old who goes through some of this also. She's a great girl, but push has to come to shove sometimes.

I laid down some tough love last night. I had just had enough. Both of them were treating me like their whipping girl, and I was just tired. I laid down some law. I don't do that very often, I like good, positive forms of communication. However, sometimes it's required.

Many, many hugs to you!

FireSprite

I can only offer lots of Mama (((((((Hugs)))))). I haven't crossed this bridge yet.

I'll admit that you are describing my biggest fear here - I know that *I* don't have an awesome relationship with my own mother and it's not illogical to believe in the possibility of this with my own DD.

In my experience, my problems with mom were in reaction to her own behavior - keep in mind she was a seriously damaged person with extreme codependency who was as FAR from recovering as a person could be. My attitude & argumentative stance were often my defense against being hurt any further.

I don't think this is the dynamic you are facing with your own DD though, sorry I can't be much help. Sometimes all we can do as parents is let our kiddos make their own mistakes. I'd be just as concerned in your shoes - the fighting is one thing, the 28-yr old alcoholic..... uh, yeah, I'd be triggered. At 18 there isn't much you can do other than letting her know that you don't care for her disrespect & that she still needs to honor your boundaries.

AnvilheadII

ok, the special friend thing creeps me out....i don't care if he's a Wall Street Banker, 10 years older at HER age is A LOT. does he come to your home and hang out?? you say you "love the guy " - but is that the appropriate FRONT to be displaying here???

i do think part of what you are dealing with is just good ole teenage/growing up/testing boundaries stuff. but what that actually means is she is SEEKING boundaries.....which means she has some issues in there that she doesn't know how to deal with and so is acting out hoping for some sort of rescue.

i don't believe she just oopsie MISSED the college app deadline....she either A) doesn't really WANT to go to college B) doesn't believe she's smart enough or whatever to MAKE it in college or C) is scared sh!tless about GOING to college.

you got some great suggestions above - not sure i've much to add accept i see no one mentioned duct tape.

SeriousKarma

Again you all come through for me.

Posting here always helps to clear my mind, and keep me on the straight and narrow. I'm continuing to have problems with chronic migraines, and lately they've really depleted my energy. I'm working with a neurologist to try and nail down a solution. Hopefully this latest treatment will work. Either way, the headaches in my head can make it very difficult to deal with the headache I gave birth to.

(Actually, my darling li'l headache is being rather agreeable right now. I probably should enjoy it while it lasts.)

Bekindalways: Yeah. It's hard to admit, but I kind of think it's time for her to spread her wing as well.

Feeling Great: I love the list. I talked to her about putting our heads together sometime this weekend to figure out what is needed around the house, and she didn't roll her eyes. That's a good sign.

Dandylion: I think a huge part of me is struggling with the idea that, although much of what she is doing is normal, she is coming from a very dysfunctional situation. I count amongst my dear friends, both here and IRL, a lot of ACOAs and RA's. I think my normal parental vigilance is turned into hyper-vigilance because I so fear her falling victim to the familial patterns of this stupid disease.

Having said that, I know that that is MY problem, and I need to deal with it. She can't solve my problems for me anymore than I can solve her problems for her, and that's why it's probably best that I let her move out if that's what she wants. Ugh.

RedAtlanta: Her dad should be in town in the next few weeks. Yes, I agree, it's time he's brought up to speed. It may be unrealistic to think that he'll ever be 100% plugged in, but it's not that he doesn't want to be. He's just really bad at it. Still, I can't do this alone, and I need to stop trying.

Dandy and Red: I started laying the groundwork on the "How not to get pregnant" issue many years ago. She's pretty comfortable talking to me about stuff like that, so I know she's covered. There's very few things in this world I'm sure of, but I am 100% confident that I have done everything I can do to help her avoid pregnancy. The rest is up to her.

Anvil: When I say I love the guy, I'm not saying I think he hangs the moon, I'm just saying he has some nice qualities, he gets my jokes, and I don't think he's evil. Admittedly my standards for using the term "love" is pretty low. I "love" people for letting me merge into traffic.

But, I am walking a tightrope here, and I know it. Every time I have ever made a negative comment about him, even a tiny one, she puts a wall up. If I were to choose to fight her about him I would lose. Every single time.

The answer is B and C. She was homeschooled, and although she's a smart girl, she hasn't had to show it in an academic setting. She knows that this is a case of her anxiety getting the best of her, and I feel bad for her, but she's not doing what she knows she needs to do to get her anxiety in check. That's kind of another source of frustration for me.

Thanks for suggesting the duct tape. I hadn't thought of that. Money has been pretty tight around here lately. Thankfully I can always count on you for practical and economically feasible suggestions.

maia1234

SK,
I am so sorry, you get rid of the ah and now you have abuse from the daughter.

I agree with Red, set up boundaries. You have to apply to college by this date. If you don't you can start paying rent. If that doesn't happen give 30 days to move out. She is not helpful at the home, instead causes more problems. Not really any advantage to having her around. For the boyfriend, sounds wacky that he is dating an 18 year old, what's up with that??

Start laying down your rules, if she doesn't follow the rules, have the ramifications regarding breaking the rules. YOU MUST ALWAYS follow through!!

Hugs my friend!!

Bekindalways

This made me laugh >>>> "Admittedly my standards for using the term "love" is pretty low. I "love" people for letting me merge into traffic. "

Hope it gets easier for you SK.

redatlanta

When I say I love the guy, I'm not saying I think he hangs the moon, I'm just saying he has some nice qualities, he gets my jokes, and I don't think he's evil. Admittedly my standards for using the term "love" is pretty low. I "love" people for letting me merge into traffic.

But, I am walking a tightrope here, and I know it. Every time I have ever made a negative comment about him, even a tiny one, she puts a wall up. If I were to choose to fight her about him I would lose. Every single time.


Its not about winning SK. Just because kid turns 18 and is a legal adult doesn't mean they still don't need guidance from their parents. Hell, I STILL get guidance from my parents and I am almost 50. She may put up a wall, she may get mad - but if you don't think its a good match, or that she is walking down a very dangerous path I'd voice my opinion loud an clear. I realize she will do what she wants to nonetheless, but a parents voice and guidance can sound in your ear unexpectedly.

He's a nearly 30 alcoholic with no car (let me guess, bad credit, no job, low paying job or job with no future, living at home or with roommates, suspended driver's license or DUI's........., and she is a very young 18 year old that is not sure what path to take in life. They shouldn't have much in common, and the fact that they do enough to hang out all the time kinda shows more about his maturity level than hers. He's a loser, we all know it, and is nothing but bad news. I don't care how nice, or adorable he is. Glad Dad is coming in town soon.

Yes, set those boundaries!!!

dandylion

Serious Karma.....does she have any social contacts with age appropriate peers?

dandylion

Praying

Just last week my dad and I were laughing about something in my teens...

He was telling me that once I graduated high school, if I chose not to go to college, he'd make it financially worth my while to move out.

At which point I said incredulously- "you'll PAY me to leave?!?"

He said NO, I'll charge you so much rent to live here that you'd be stupid not to look elsewhere and start building your life.

That always rang in my ears and I knew I had to make my way in life. I do think if I worked and had a plan that they'd be of assistance- they've proven that later in life when I hit hurdles. But they helped me climb to my feet and then left and went home again--a very different dynamic than most parents.

And I have such a strong sense of self esteem and self reliance that I believe is from the mindset they created that forced me to rely on myself and believe in myself.

From the outside, a HS graduate with no clear plans and a decade-older boyfriend with drinking issues is a scary thing and as a mom I'd be quietly freaking out. Might be a good time to have a discussion ignoring the BF and talking about life plans and goals and what assistance you'll be providing.

Talking about moving out and really supporting oneself is two separate things. I see her moving out and ending up living with him, which probably sets off terror alerts in your head on repeating your past...maybe there's a way to have a broader life goal discussion and help break it down into current choices.

Do you deep down want her to have that independence and go to college? Just asking because I've seen kids waver on that out of the joint secret fear of abandoning their moms and gaining independence--those moms needed to give that extra kick in the pants to make it happen and fight their own internal feelings of wanting to keep them close.

Hugs to you!

Hawkeye13

Hi SK
I suggest you look into your local community colleges.
They are cheap, usually have very good quality instruction
(instead of using TAs to teach freshman, which is the case where I work)
and most importantly, they have "core classes" which should transfer
to a bigger school.

They usually don't have early deadlines, and it would be a good transition
for a HS young adult. She could even start in Summer if it's too late now for Spring.

By the way, I'm with Anvil and others for making her step up at home or move out.

SeriousKarma

Red, My daughter absolutely knows what I think of her relationship with this guy. I've made it very clear, and take every opportunity to put my two cents in.

You're right, it's not a game. I agree, At this point she's still referring to him as a friend, and she's still open to going on dates with other people. When things are calm between us, and we're shooting the breeze, she'll even occasionally acknowledge his issues. But when I push or lecture I seem to only make it worse. Right now, if you were to ask her, she'd say that he's a very special friend, and they have a lot of chemistry together. She would not call him a boyfriend. That's why I have to be careful. I'm opinionated, and she's stubborn. The difference here, of course, is that my opinion is right. This relationship is in no way good for her, but if I don't watch how I speak to her all she'll hear is her overly opinionated mom b*tching, and that's just going to drive her closer to him. I don't think this, I know it.

Dandy,I may not have mentioned this before, but they work together. Most of her social group centers around the place she works at. It's a popular little hang out right near the Fine Arts department of a university. Her friends are mostly students in the arts, or artist wannabe's, or people that work at the neighboring restaurants and shops They range in age from 18 to 30, so yeah, unfortunately she's at the young end.

Praying, Just yesterday she and I had a good conversation about her moving out. We hit upon some of the points you make. Especially the difference between moving out, and supporting herself. What a realistic budget would look like, and how to pick a good roommate. Stuff like that.

She does worry about me. In fact she just asked a few days ago if I'd be alright if she moved out. I reassured her that I'd be fine, and that I love living alone. Then she made a comment about how she'd be over every Sunday to watch the Walking Dead with me.

I think your point about the "extra kick in the pants" is important. She's gone through a lot over the past few years, and she doesn't need me adding to her burden.

Hawkeye, This girl pretty much has a free ride to college due to her father's GI bill, and VA disability benefits. She just has to get ahold of her anxiety and get off her @ss to apply. I've told her that if she's not going to use the benefits than I will.

So friends, here's what I think....

Regarding the Doppelgänger/Freudian Nightmare/28 year old Creeper, I think I'm handling it as best I can. She knows how I feel about the situation, but if I start telling her how to live her life she's just going to dig her heels in. The more I tear him down, the more she's going to build him up. Right now at least a part of her brain sees him realistically.

Whether she goes to school or not, she needs to move out. It may be scary for me and risky for her, but she needs it and so do it. She can stay here for a bit longer, but only if she's preparing for college, and doing her end of the housework.

I need to bring her dad up to speed on what's going on. He and I need to set a time frame for the college applications. I doubt he'll be able to do anything about his l'il 28yr old twin, but at least there will be two of us freaking out, and not just me alone. He also needs to "grow up" as a father. He likes to live in a bit of a fantasy world where he thinks that posting a cute baby picture of "his princess" on Facebook, and occasionally sending a little cash, is all that is needed of him as a father. He's capable of more, but he's not going to do it if I don't ask. I've just so gotten out of the habit of expecting anything from him when it comes to that. Even if he takes on only 10% of the job, it's better than me doing 100% myself.

THippy

I have 6 daughters, 5 of them are adults with their own families now. I often tell people that the teen years are a lot like a second pregnancy complete with a slowly intensifying labor which is instantly relieved by pushing them out. Haha Hang in there mama, 4 of those grown daughters are my best friends now. The 5th is a long story for some other day.