Update on my kidlets.....
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Update on my kidlets.....
Well, this past weekend was my XAH's wedding. As many of you know, there was a big blow up on Xmas Eve, causing much upset for my children.
After many debates of what to do, and counseling sessions, my kids decided what to do. My youngest DD went to the wedding, participated in the wedding, went to the cake reception after, and was in the photos.
My teenage DD went to the wedding, however she chose not to be in the wedding itself. She also left before the reception. The kicker is, she did not tell anyone she was leaving except her little sister, which means her dad was looking for her. And hoping she would be in the pics. This has caused upset, she did text him and say she was sorry that she left in a rush, she was going to tell him bye but did not want to bother him, and to have a Happy Day. Ummmmm....that won't go over well, you can bet on that. Her dad is a professional victim and will hold that against her forever, but that is what it is, and it was her choice in how to do this. More counseling to follow.
So now is my dilemma with my little DD. Since Xmas eve, she has visited his home during the day once, which went OK. She did not sleep over. She has went to his wedding, and chose herself (with counseling) to be in the wedding. She now says that she should not have to visit her dad b/c she is not comfortable going there.
Thing is, I feel if she is under duress, or something has happened, I can keep her from him. If not, she will have to go to visitation. That is just how it is. I think all of this will go to court eventually, and I cannot risk in any way it looking like I kept my children from their father. I explained this, and she got upset with me and was crying.
I am at a loss. I am trying to step back and let them guide their own decisions, and their counselor helps them with all of this, and supports that I am trying to take a step back, that they have to do some of this themselves.
Input friends???
After many debates of what to do, and counseling sessions, my kids decided what to do. My youngest DD went to the wedding, participated in the wedding, went to the cake reception after, and was in the photos.
My teenage DD went to the wedding, however she chose not to be in the wedding itself. She also left before the reception. The kicker is, she did not tell anyone she was leaving except her little sister, which means her dad was looking for her. And hoping she would be in the pics. This has caused upset, she did text him and say she was sorry that she left in a rush, she was going to tell him bye but did not want to bother him, and to have a Happy Day. Ummmmm....that won't go over well, you can bet on that. Her dad is a professional victim and will hold that against her forever, but that is what it is, and it was her choice in how to do this. More counseling to follow.
So now is my dilemma with my little DD. Since Xmas eve, she has visited his home during the day once, which went OK. She did not sleep over. She has went to his wedding, and chose herself (with counseling) to be in the wedding. She now says that she should not have to visit her dad b/c she is not comfortable going there.
Thing is, I feel if she is under duress, or something has happened, I can keep her from him. If not, she will have to go to visitation. That is just how it is. I think all of this will go to court eventually, and I cannot risk in any way it looking like I kept my children from their father. I explained this, and she got upset with me and was crying.
I am at a loss. I am trying to step back and let them guide their own decisions, and their counselor helps them with all of this, and supports that I am trying to take a step back, that they have to do some of this themselves.
Input friends???
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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I can not recall how old your younger DD is... That sounds so difficult and upsetting for both your kids and for you-- first and foremost I am so sorry.
But it is amazing to hear that your older D set a boundary for herself and left when and how she felt was best for her... I pray my girls can do that some day with their A dad...
Can you have your younger D possibly write to her dad and say she does not feel like coming? Or can you relay to him what she's told you and hope (I know how silly that probably is) that he can care about her feelings and respect her wishes?
I agree you can't just not send her but you can get creative in how to handle this...
Depending on your younger D's age, could she email her dad and tell her her own wants? My older D (she is 10) has done this...
But it is amazing to hear that your older D set a boundary for herself and left when and how she felt was best for her... I pray my girls can do that some day with their A dad...
Can you have your younger D possibly write to her dad and say she does not feel like coming? Or can you relay to him what she's told you and hope (I know how silly that probably is) that he can care about her feelings and respect her wishes?
I agree you can't just not send her but you can get creative in how to handle this...
Depending on your younger D's age, could she email her dad and tell her her own wants? My older D (she is 10) has done this...
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My DD is the same age as your older DD. The problem being, that he firmly won't care how she is feeling about it. It's all about his own wants and needs.
This is a very fine line. This will end up in court eventually. He will definitely 100% say that I convinced my girls/enabled them/anything he can possibly say, to make a judge think I am withholding visitation. It has to be on her to stand up for what she wants, and at this point she is just too afraid/too intimidated to do so.
I only wish he could respect her wishes. I am proud of my older D. I am proud she set boundaries. I did make sure she understood what would likely happen next, and was ready to deal with that. She gets stronger every day.
This is a very fine line. This will end up in court eventually. He will definitely 100% say that I convinced my girls/enabled them/anything he can possibly say, to make a judge think I am withholding visitation. It has to be on her to stand up for what she wants, and at this point she is just too afraid/too intimidated to do so.
I only wish he could respect her wishes. I am proud of my older D. I am proud she set boundaries. I did make sure she understood what would likely happen next, and was ready to deal with that. She gets stronger every day.
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My kids went through a phase of not wanting to go to their father's house. (Their father was remarried and lived with his wife). Now, I did not think he was abusing them.....but, they didn't like his household, for many reasons...."Too boring", "no friends there", "to strict-not relaxed like our home", etc, etc, etc.
Like you--I, also, knew that their father would start world war 3 if they didn't go when scheduled.....
I just told them that..."Sorry, kids, it is non-negotiable. We all have to do things that we don't like in life....so, we just have to learn to make the best of it".
They stopped trying to beg out of it....they would groan once in a while and I would just say....."I know how it is".......
I do understand that each situation may be different...but, that is how it went for us.......
dandylion
Like you--I, also, knew that their father would start world war 3 if they didn't go when scheduled.....
I just told them that..."Sorry, kids, it is non-negotiable. We all have to do things that we don't like in life....so, we just have to learn to make the best of it".
They stopped trying to beg out of it....they would groan once in a while and I would just say....."I know how it is".......
I do understand that each situation may be different...but, that is how it went for us.......
dandylion
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My oldest is intimidated and scared of her dad, too-scared to stand up to him. Sad that he's bullied her so much that she's afraid. All about him and looking good. Nothing about what he's done to her-par for the course! You are a good, great momma-and have given your girls the best thing they'll ever have-a voice-to say no to abusube bullying men-bc God do we as women (and girls ) need that in today's predatory world! You rock, friend.
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I used to play Mad Libs - Emo Version with DD when she had trouble putting her thoughts into words. I'd prompt her to just say whatever came to mind, no right or wrong answers. Fill-in-the-blank, "I feel ______" "When this happens, I think _______".
We'd have fun, I'd mix up silly stuff with the serious & over the conversation her answers would lead me to more questions, the tone would get more serious & before you she realized it, she was sharing openly. I realize it's not "admissible" legally, but it helped DD understand herself better & it helped me separate things like dandy pointed out - real issues vs. the discomforts of a new situation. When DD told me she didn't like the bed at Dad's place, well, I'm sorry but that's just nit-picking & not a reason to stay home. When she told me she felt unsafe based on the # of times he'd been pulled over while she was in the car with him, I kept her home because no child should worry for their safety that way.
And woohoo for DD#1! Right or wrong, she's trying to honor her own feelings & that's brave & admirable.
We'd have fun, I'd mix up silly stuff with the serious & over the conversation her answers would lead me to more questions, the tone would get more serious & before you she realized it, she was sharing openly. I realize it's not "admissible" legally, but it helped DD understand herself better & it helped me separate things like dandy pointed out - real issues vs. the discomforts of a new situation. When DD told me she didn't like the bed at Dad's place, well, I'm sorry but that's just nit-picking & not a reason to stay home. When she told me she felt unsafe based on the # of times he'd been pulled over while she was in the car with him, I kept her home because no child should worry for their safety that way.
And woohoo for DD#1! Right or wrong, she's trying to honor her own feelings & that's brave & admirable.
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Over the holidays my 10 yr old told her father outright (in front of me) that she did NOT care to be forced to spend time with a child who her father constantly forces her to entertain and who is a massive brat according to my kids, while she spends time with him. She said that she would go hang out with him for the afternoon but NOT if she had to entertain this other kid. This was something the kids therapist has been encouraging DD10 to say to her dad for about 6 months. She finally did. The reaction? Blame. Blamed me, blamed DD10, told her she was wrong to feel that way, blah blah blah. It was so eye opening bc it was clear then to me more than ever before, that it does not matter who it is that tells xAH their feelings, he WILL always invalidate them.
DD10 chose to not go, I was threatened with legal action and he will, as will your xAH always go there instantly bc that is the only card they have to play.
However, at a certain point their actions speak loudly to a court. A "father" who rarely sees his kids, makes demands of them with no concern for their feelings and a track record of a therapist who's involved (and my xAH refuses to be involved with the therapy sessions at all) gives me and I suspect you, a lot of backbone with the court IF either of our xAH's follow through with the court threats.
The value in my DD10 telling her father her feelings vs me relaying them to him on her behalf is that it takes the wind out of his sails in alleging I am making up what her feelings are, AND it is a good lesson for my DD to realize that you can and should set boundaries for yourself.
Is there an age at which kids in your state get to have a say?
DD10 chose to not go, I was threatened with legal action and he will, as will your xAH always go there instantly bc that is the only card they have to play.
However, at a certain point their actions speak loudly to a court. A "father" who rarely sees his kids, makes demands of them with no concern for their feelings and a track record of a therapist who's involved (and my xAH refuses to be involved with the therapy sessions at all) gives me and I suspect you, a lot of backbone with the court IF either of our xAH's follow through with the court threats.
The value in my DD10 telling her father her feelings vs me relaying them to him on her behalf is that it takes the wind out of his sails in alleging I am making up what her feelings are, AND it is a good lesson for my DD to realize that you can and should set boundaries for yourself.
Is there an age at which kids in your state get to have a say?
Originally Posted by hopeful4 
My DD is the same age as your older DD. The problem being, that he firmly won't care how she is feeling about it. It's all about his own wants and needs.
This is a very fine line. This will end up in court eventually. He will definitely 100% say that I convinced my girls/enabled them/anything he can possibly say, to make a judge think I am withholding visitation. It has to be on her to stand up for what she wants, and at this point she is just too afraid/too intimidated to do so.
I only wish he could respect her wishes. I am proud of my older D. I am proud she set boundaries. I did make sure she understood what would likely happen next, and was ready to deal with that. She gets stronger every day.
This is a very fine line. This will end up in court eventually. He will definitely 100% say that I convinced my girls/enabled them/anything he can possibly say, to make a judge think I am withholding visitation. It has to be on her to stand up for what she wants, and at this point she is just too afraid/too intimidated to do so.
I only wish he could respect her wishes. I am proud of my older D. I am proud she set boundaries. I did make sure she understood what would likely happen next, and was ready to deal with that. She gets stronger every day.
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In my state it's a myth that there's an "age" at which kids have a say. The court will listen after a certain age, and obviously if they can drive themselves away in a car the courts won't force it, but there's no such age.
My sons were barely 11 and barely 13 at the split. Their dad married his secret affair one week after the divorce, lied about it, saw the kids and didn't tell them...then we learned about it because he got fired from his job due to drugs, aggressive behavior, and the affair to the school secretary (he was head of a school my kids attended)...it was a small town and it was GOSSIP. I'm fortunate to have escaped with the boys back to my home state the week before and protect them some...but we heard it all! (The entire thing was so traumatic with the abuse/events that DS13 couldn't even make it through his new school that year--I pulled him for the last two months at the urging of his counselors.)
Anyway, the boys were freaked about the drinking, drugs, secret life and lying, freaked from his rages before we left, and generally felt unsafe with him. Since we were 1,000 miles away, they had to get on a plane to go see him for his visits.
They refused. They begged him to come talk but he wanted it on his terms and didn't think he owed them an apology or explanation or just plain COMFORT. And all along he claimed "parental alienation" and threatened legal action, while refusing to come see them even though I offered to pay. I was sick about it.
I struggled so much with doing the right thing, not saying anything negative..."urging" them to go even though I didn't trust it either and it made my stomach churn, especially after all of his emotional/verbal abuse to them...
They finally went once and came back saying they would never go again. I made them tell him when they refused the next visit because I thought he needed to hear from them since he claimed I lied about it each time. I'll never forget that day...I dialed him, and just hearing his voice was triggering for me as we were just beginning to heal from his garbage and I hadn't heard his voice in months...and DS11 talked some, while DS13 writhed around on the floor barely speaking...like a small toddler...in physical and deep emotional agony...not wanting to even speak...
I regret making him do that. I was protecting myself from X's accusations and I thought it would be healthy...it was horrible for DS13 and set him back. From that moment forward I decided--screw it--I'm not making them do this, who cares if he drags me to court.
He never did. I had a paper trail of me offering solutions to help their relationship and him repeatedly ignoring them. From that point forward I simply stopped that too and told him he's on his own.
Funny--after two full years of selfishness, this past year he actually has tried somewhat. He moved 500 miles further to a city location, and DS11 who is now 14 went there recently and said it was okay, he felt safer. Pains me a bit because I believe this version of dad will disappear as soon as they get roped in...but they do need to think their dad loves them. So even his horrible effort is better than none. And I've reached a point where I can recall his positive qualities and really old good memories when talking to the kids.
Maybe more info than you'd like...but I do know your struggle and how incredibly HARD it is...it will eventually get better--
...and threats are so easy to toss around. Remember, he has more at stake in front of a judge than you do. I think that's what kept me out of the courts. At the end of the day my X didn't want that spotlight.
Hugs to you!!!
My sons were barely 11 and barely 13 at the split. Their dad married his secret affair one week after the divorce, lied about it, saw the kids and didn't tell them...then we learned about it because he got fired from his job due to drugs, aggressive behavior, and the affair to the school secretary (he was head of a school my kids attended)...it was a small town and it was GOSSIP. I'm fortunate to have escaped with the boys back to my home state the week before and protect them some...but we heard it all! (The entire thing was so traumatic with the abuse/events that DS13 couldn't even make it through his new school that year--I pulled him for the last two months at the urging of his counselors.)
Anyway, the boys were freaked about the drinking, drugs, secret life and lying, freaked from his rages before we left, and generally felt unsafe with him. Since we were 1,000 miles away, they had to get on a plane to go see him for his visits.
They refused. They begged him to come talk but he wanted it on his terms and didn't think he owed them an apology or explanation or just plain COMFORT. And all along he claimed "parental alienation" and threatened legal action, while refusing to come see them even though I offered to pay. I was sick about it.
I struggled so much with doing the right thing, not saying anything negative..."urging" them to go even though I didn't trust it either and it made my stomach churn, especially after all of his emotional/verbal abuse to them...
They finally went once and came back saying they would never go again. I made them tell him when they refused the next visit because I thought he needed to hear from them since he claimed I lied about it each time. I'll never forget that day...I dialed him, and just hearing his voice was triggering for me as we were just beginning to heal from his garbage and I hadn't heard his voice in months...and DS11 talked some, while DS13 writhed around on the floor barely speaking...like a small toddler...in physical and deep emotional agony...not wanting to even speak...
I regret making him do that. I was protecting myself from X's accusations and I thought it would be healthy...it was horrible for DS13 and set him back. From that moment forward I decided--screw it--I'm not making them do this, who cares if he drags me to court.
He never did. I had a paper trail of me offering solutions to help their relationship and him repeatedly ignoring them. From that point forward I simply stopped that too and told him he's on his own.
Funny--after two full years of selfishness, this past year he actually has tried somewhat. He moved 500 miles further to a city location, and DS11 who is now 14 went there recently and said it was okay, he felt safer. Pains me a bit because I believe this version of dad will disappear as soon as they get roped in...but they do need to think their dad loves them. So even his horrible effort is better than none. And I've reached a point where I can recall his positive qualities and really old good memories when talking to the kids.
Maybe more info than you'd like...but I do know your struggle and how incredibly HARD it is...it will eventually get better--
...and threats are so easy to toss around. Remember, he has more at stake in front of a judge than you do. I think that's what kept me out of the courts. At the end of the day my X didn't want that spotlight.
Hugs to you!!!
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Well, I stuck my ground and did not send her there last night. He was livid, this is legal, who is my attorney, I prob don't even have an attorney, blah, blah....
I said that I definitely do have an attorney, however, who that is is none of his business. That anything he needs to serve me or send to me he can go right ahead. Goodnight. He said, "whatever."
Both times recently that he has tried to bully me, I have calmly stood my ground and not engaged. It's working out.
My daughter does not want to go b/c of his past behaviors, as well as she just hates it there. That being said, I did tell her last night that even though she does not like it there, that unless he is doing something that puts her at risk or emotional abuse, she has to go. She understands, she just does not like it. Since she has been in counseling, she has made huge strides. She feeds off her sister a lot, who is obviously angry for a slew of entire other issues with her father. I am seeing my little DD find her own feelings, and act on them, instead of following her sister all the time. That is healthy for both of them, and something they are working on in counseling.
So for today, I have hope. It's not his weekend this weekend, so for now, she has several days to not even think about it if she does not want to.
As far as the legal issue, his wife is friends with her attorney. I am pretty sure they think they can pay him next to nothing and have him send a letter to me thinking it will be a threat. I happen to know, unless they want to file for contempt of court, there is nothing I have to even consider. And then, I am ready. I have all my ducks in a row and have already spoken w/my attorney, who is also ready. And, I will go after him to pay my attorney fees, and he knows it, which is why I doubt he would dare file for contempt of court against me.
I am going to take it a day at a time, stay calm, continue to support my kids and be the best mother I can be.
Thank you all for your input and kind words, you cannot even know how much it means to me.
I said that I definitely do have an attorney, however, who that is is none of his business. That anything he needs to serve me or send to me he can go right ahead. Goodnight. He said, "whatever."
Both times recently that he has tried to bully me, I have calmly stood my ground and not engaged. It's working out.
My daughter does not want to go b/c of his past behaviors, as well as she just hates it there. That being said, I did tell her last night that even though she does not like it there, that unless he is doing something that puts her at risk or emotional abuse, she has to go. She understands, she just does not like it. Since she has been in counseling, she has made huge strides. She feeds off her sister a lot, who is obviously angry for a slew of entire other issues with her father. I am seeing my little DD find her own feelings, and act on them, instead of following her sister all the time. That is healthy for both of them, and something they are working on in counseling.
So for today, I have hope. It's not his weekend this weekend, so for now, she has several days to not even think about it if she does not want to.
As far as the legal issue, his wife is friends with her attorney. I am pretty sure they think they can pay him next to nothing and have him send a letter to me thinking it will be a threat. I happen to know, unless they want to file for contempt of court, there is nothing I have to even consider. And then, I am ready. I have all my ducks in a row and have already spoken w/my attorney, who is also ready. And, I will go after him to pay my attorney fees, and he knows it, which is why I doubt he would dare file for contempt of court against me.
I am going to take it a day at a time, stay calm, continue to support my kids and be the best mother I can be.
Thank you all for your input and kind words, you cannot even know how much it means to me.
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Originally Posted by hopeful4
I am seeing my little DD find her own feelings, and act on them, instead of following her sister all the time. That is healthy for both of them, and something they are working on in counseling.
THIS is what it's all about to me hopeful, I broke out into huge smiles reading this section. Helping her find her voice, separate from Big Sis, & supporting her while she learns how to manage it all is the Best Gift Ever.
Way to go, Mama!!
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Thank you FS, I really appreciate that.
Older DD has SO MUCH ANGER! It's just seething off of her, I really worry. However, she is in counseling, and I am doing the best I can in talking to her. She gets very frustrated when I tell her things like communication will never be positive if it's just anger. That you have to actually sit down and LISTEN. Praise God for their counselor, she is a God send!
Older DD has SO MUCH ANGER! It's just seething off of her, I really worry. However, she is in counseling, and I am doing the best I can in talking to her. She gets very frustrated when I tell her things like communication will never be positive if it's just anger. That you have to actually sit down and LISTEN. Praise God for their counselor, she is a God send!
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You are such an awesome Mom, Hopeful - how wonderful that you have helped your girls find their voice and at the same time maintain your own voice, making it clear to your ex that you will not be bullied. With your positive influence and guidance, as well as the strong support of counselors, I'm convinced they will both mature into fierce, strong women - woo hoo!
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