dandylion

Hummer....no one can tell you what to do in your marriage.....that is a personal decision....
By the way.....either move that you mention will not have any long term effect on his drinking....whether you "forgive him and stay"...or "leave him straight away".
He will get/stay sober when he wants it for himself. (he may not be there, yet).

To me...his "program" sounds a little weak. I think that the alcoholic often is willing to go to a counselor in an effort to avoid AA.....it satisfies those that he wants to get off his back...and, he doesn't get labeled as an alcoholic....and, it is easier to ******** many counselors than a whole group of alcoholics and a sponsor.
I am all for counseling and therapy....but, I think that a program in addition to that is necessary...
There are different kinds of counselors...(I don't know which o ne he is going to). some specialize in addiction and others do not.
Individual therapy is a good adjunct to deal with other issues in addition to the alcoholism.....

You might...at this time...go to the classic sticky....and, read the one titled: "10 ways to know if your addict or alcoholic is full of crap"......that will give you a pretty good yardstick......(did you check out the article by Floyd P. garrett?).....

dandylion

Hummer

Hi dandylion,

Just found the article you referred me to - it's quite lengthy so I will aim to read it later after work - thanks for that.

Also, have no idea where to find stickies - could you please shed any light?

Many thanks

dandylion

Nummer.....the stickies are the articles on the main page ....ABOVE the threads.....

I suggest that you go to the one that is called
Classic Readings".......you will find the article that I suggested, under that...
Let me know if you can't find it.....I will help you.....

dandylion

DesertEyes

Directions to the stickies can be found here:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...newcomers.html

Mike
Moderator, SR

dandylion

THANKS, DesertEyes!

dandylion

Praying

Hi--wanted to follow up on something Dandylion posted...

Not long after my BF and I moved in together with our kids, and with him knowing my backstory with my XAH--that I couldn't live with an addict again...he slipped back into an alcohol addiction I didn't know existed (because he "just didn't drink" and of course still denied it was an issue after several previous interventions.

I told him he could do what he wanted but not live with me and drink... I told him he probably needed AA since he hadn't been able to sustain not drinking any time he quit...he didn't think he needed that. He went to one AA meeting to appease me and said he "wasn't like those people". (Strangely that's the same thing my XAH said.) He thought a counselor would work better for him. (So did XAH. They both thought they could "manage" their counselors.)

Fortunately for him (I think) I picked an addiction counselor who nailed him and saw through everything. He muscled through 6 sessions with the counselor and declared he was "doing okay not drinking", and that the counselor told him to check back in a few months, though the counselor did tell him to continue AA. After the sessions he slowly drifted away from AA (even though he had a "sponsor", his heart wasn't on it, and his sponsor called him out on it too). He didn't check back in with the counselor either. He was a-ok in his mind.

It wasn't until 8 months later when I kicked him out and said I needed space that he truly acted. (I don't believe he drank during that time, but it was miserable--and he's managed long stints of sobriety before--like when he met me--so that didn't mean much to me in terms of permanence. His attitude and thinking and lack of accountability was exhausting.) He then dove in to AA full force and also went back to the counselor and was miffed when he asked, "So let me guess, you've been kicked out? So what do you want from me? Are you ready to actually WORK yet?"

My point here is this...his early actions through the counselor and AA appeared to show he was doing it all for months...but my heart knew otherwise, and it wasn't working for me. Once he truly immersed and began working...it was OBVIOUS. Too late for me, but OBVIOUS.

How will you know? You will know. IMO, if you have to ask...it's not there. You will feel it. You'll feel the change from blaming and needing and minimizing and you-you-you to self-aware and thoughtful about what he says (or said, after reflecting on it later--self-reflection!!), and overall change in approach to the world...no longer a victim, but in charge of his future good and bad...you'll see baby steps toward a different, accountable, honorable person. Baby steps.

Just don't fall for the words. Let your heart seek it in his actions. But if you have to look too hard or tell yourself it's there without feeling it, it isn't.

redatlanta

Tough situation.

So straight up I think its going to be hard as long as you continue to live separately. I know you are doing this for work, but its really not conducive for a marriage. In a marriage where you are trying to rebuild trust I think its .....impossible. Too much freedom my friend, too many holes. Too easy to lie. Too easy to be fooled.

What do you think about moving to live with each other? Do you find yourself missing him, wishing you lived together full-time? If you don't I think that says a lot.

Hummer

Thanks to you all for time taken to reply. Been away so a bit late in responding.
I agree with Praying that it will most probably be very obvious when my husband is really actively working a recovery programme and also with red Atlanta about the distance thing not being conducive to a trusting and harmonious lifestyle.
My husband would like very much for me to give up my job in the north and live with him permanently but I have resisted this for a few reasons; I like my job/colleagues, I like where I live (we met there-his job took him away), I have my only child and 2 very young grandchildren close by and would miss them terribly so I 'to and fro' between the two places - happy medium - probably far from ideal but there are many couples who can't be together full time. My husband definitely struggles with this more than I do and I think his loneliness is part of the reasons he drank so much in the past as he was alone quite a bit. I have had many years alone whilst raising my daughter and have many interests and hobbies to fill my time.
My husband is a good man really but sometimes there is soooo much tension in the air then we have 'a chat' to clear the air and he gets to vent - there always seems to be things for him to be unhappy with me about. This week the 3 main areas were - him still resenting being made to spend last Christmas alone as I wouldn't allow him home - due to the stress his drinking had caused I had reached breaking point and decided to take time out. The other thing was that I had shared intimate details of our relationship with my best friend (he discovered this by looking at my texts) I was complaining to her about his requests that I do this or that sexually and that I didn't feel altogether comfortable and was asking her what She thought etc
The other almost laughable thing was that I ate my lunch and didn't wait for him (he was running a little late) to eat together - we were getting ready for a long car journey so I just decided to eat my lunch at the agreed time and then proceed to get on with the packing etc - not realising this would ever be an issue - I feel it was absolutely absurd to raise something so trivial - we are quite different in that I am a just get on with things type and my husband is way more sensitive - am I being too cut and dried? All comments welcome, thanks again

SparkleKitty

Your husband's resentments are his problem. It sounds to me like he using them to distract from his choices and to make you feel guilty so you will give him what he wants.

What do YOU want? Do you want to live with someone who is forever telling you how you are failing him? Do you want to live with someone who refuses to take responsibility for his choices and the consequences of those choices? Do you want a partner who cares about what you want? You get to choose on all of those fronts, but you don't get to make someone else into someone they are not. It just doesn't happen. I think you deserve happiness and the life you want, free from judgment.

Liveitwell

Hummer-research blame shifting and gas lighting. I'm sure the stickies have info on these abuse/manipulative techniques as well. What he's doing can be found in the alcoholics 101 manual. It's classic - but doesbt mean it's ok.

dandylion

Hummer....there are hundreds and hundreds of real life stories, here, on SR, about loved ones who moved far, far away from their home and family and career roots .....with high hopes as they followed the alcoholic.
Seeking the geographic solution to relationship problems.....

Geography only solves geography issues.....but, it can spell disaster for addiction issues or personal relationship problems.....
When the wheels come off the cart....it often leaves the loved one alone, isolated, and in pain.....

dandylion

honeypig

Hummer, someone here posted a link to this article a while ago: He Wants To Try, But I Don't - Leslie Vernick- Christ-Centered Counseling Please feel free to disregard the Christian slant if that's not your viewpoint; the information is valid and useful nevertheless.

Here is a quote from it that you might find relevant:
...in his mind he abused you because you did something wrong; you made him unhappy or angry. All along he has justified his behavior to himself because of your failures and your sins. Because of his hurt he’s told himself it’s acceptable to hurt you back...
Your husband’s entitlement attitude (I’m entitled to a wife who never hurts me, never upsets me, never angers me, never disappointments me) doesn’t get addressed, nor does his rationalization or self-justification. It becomes about you dancing harder to make sure you become what he needs you to become so he doesn’t get upset.

It sounds like there is more going on here than just someone who is "way more sensitive." It sounds like excuses to drink and to engage in unacceptable behavior (what is he doing reading YOUR texts to a friend of YOURS?). I think I see some control and some emotional abuse, perhaps. Think about all those things, and you may reach some new conclusions about what you want to do.

Liveitwell

HP-I printed that article (I think I posted it?! I can't recall-I've posted many abuse articles). It is 100% spot on. Nails my ex. Just nails him. His entitled attitude, and a mommy etc that has told him and raised him to believe that others are there to serve him and make him happy-therefore immasculatimg him bc he is unable to create that happiness within himself or for himself. What a set up for failure in life!

Friend, I do agree with Honeypig-this is more than just deflecting-it's an unwillingness to look at himself and a feeling that bc you let him down or sinned (gasp-we ALL do!), that it's ok to treat you the way he does and excuse his own behavior. Wake up call!!! No! His thinking is completely messed up and dysfunctional....his thinking would have to change first....

Please think about if this is the type of person you want to spend your life with!

Praying

I pulled out some of the red flags I see here that resonate from my marriage to XAH.

1) He wanted me to quit my job. I felt like a "failure" for not doing it to please him even though I enjoyed my job. (Hindsight- quitting and relying on his income would have heightened his control, made me "need" him, and trapped me more.)

2) I had hobbies, he was lonely and missed me more than I missed him- so he said I didn't love him enough. I wondered if that was true. (Hindsight- inability to be alone and overly relying on me to fill his emotional needs was a big problem. I would never be enough and I lost myself trying. Lost my hobbies for a while too.)

3) "He was a good man, but..."
That's what I kept saying about him until the day I filed for divorce. He was a good man. BUT...a good man doesn't blame you for claiming your space when he drinks over the holidays and you want peace. (That was very healthy of you, by the way.) A good man thanks you for packing and apologizes for being late rather than harping on your "selfish failure" by eating yourself to stay on schedule. A good man doesn't read your texts to your friend, and if he casually sees them and is hurt by it, he thinks about it and talks to you and asks if you can discuss these things so he can make sure you feel comfortable.
A good man ACTS like a good man.

I hear in your description a man that fears he isn't good enough, doesn't want to focus on himself and improve, and wants to bring you down with him. He will attack and belittle things that build your independence and self esteem...and the path your relationship is on right now doesn't feel like a healthy one. You feel it, which is why you're frustrated.

Just wanted to call these things out, because they really screamed to me that he is overly needy and controlling...not a good thing. Please take care of yourself and don't feel guilty enough to change your behavior. You're acting like a very healthy, responsible adult.

Hummer

Thank you Praying, your words really resonate with me.
I will sit tight and see if things will improve the more AF time he notches up and if not then I will have to reconsider my options. Many thanks and I hope your life is better now.

Liveitwell

Praying-awesome words! Thank you for those. Very accurate description of the situation.

Hummer

Hi all,
It's been 3 months since my last post. I feel overwhelmed and in need of as much advice as you good, experienced people can give.

You may remember that my marriage is rocky due to husbands alcohol addiction and us living apart every other week.

Since December when he announced that he would no longer drink - due to that being my boundary - I have strong suspicions that he maybe didn't drink for the first 3 months and then the moods and catalogue of gripes returned and I've also suspected that I can detect in his voice that he's been drinking over the telephone. Other times he has avoided calls and other times when I have collected him at airport recently I have smelled a strong smell of stale booze and blurry eyes.

This ties in with his recent dark mood. He travelled the 400 miles north last Friday, his 18 year old daughter also arrived to stay the night with us. Friday and Saturday were both ok. On the Saturday afternoon I suggested a walk near the river and a cold drink at a nearby hotel garden. We did this and I ordered a soft drink for him and as I didn't feel like anything fizzy I order myself a water with ice and lemon (there's a reason I'm giving so much detail) afterwards we were both very hungry so headed home to make dinner. All seemed OK. Earlyish night as We were travelling to another town 100 miles away Sunday to attend a memorial service for my teenage nephew who passed away in February of this year. Plans had been in place for a while. We had plenty of time Sunday morn so I suggested a walk before the journey. We did so and I could definitely detect a change in mood, we walk around with a heavy feeling no holding hands because I didn't initiate it like I did the day before. I think maybe the mood is to do with it being Father's Day and 2 of his 3 daughters didn't send him a card as they have all fallen out again so I try not to be too harsh about the mood. We collect my daughter and grandson at noon and travel the 100 miles all the while the mood getting more noticeable (I'm beginning to think this mood may be because he wants to drink having been a few days sober in my company?). Anyway, we attend the memorial I'm still trying to keep conversation going - for my daughters sake mostly as don't want her picking up and suffering coz of his mood. We have two adjoining hotel rooms for the night, one for us and the other for daughter and son.
I won't be seeing my husband for 3 weeks as I'm going away abroad with all the ladies in my family for my mums 60th birthday then have to work a week on my return - not ideal to not see one another for 3 weeks but can't be helped and I had arranged to spend a full two weeks together next time I see him.
I offered for us to go out for a meal together on Sunday night - he said he didn't mind. I suggested an alternative of takeaway and enjoy nice hotel rooms and weather was awful too. He said for me to. Choose as he didn't mind either way. I could tell he did mind as the mood was still there. We got takeaway, my daughter put baby to bed and the 3 of us ate the food. At 10pm my daughter went out for a few hours with our young nieces as they aren't in the same town very often. I left the adjoining door open to listen out for baby - no big deal!
I should mention here that my husband and I are in process of buying an apartment down south where his workplace is so we have a more comfortable base down there and we have my apartment up north.

On the Monday husband left early for long drive south to work and daughter and I took a train 100 miles other direction back to our homes. I text and thanked him for arranging the hotels and for the takeaways the previous night.
He responded b saying that I was welcome but his generosity was going to be reduced in the future - he is sick of everyone allowing him to pay for everything all of the time - I reminded him that I had offered to buy the food. He is still bitter about his sister and her husband dodging restaurant bills every time we meet but seemed unreasonable to extend this to me, his wife and my daughter.
I told him I wouldn't be accepting any more meals for my family in future.
I also told him to get whatever off his chest as there was very obviously something as his mood was very difficult to deal with all of the previous day and eve.
To cut long story short, whenever there is this mood I know that in a day or two I will hear a catalogue of gripes - mostly about me.
He complained that the day out on Sunday had been changed without any thought of his feelings. Wanted a beach walk but we didn't have time.
Complained about the amount of driving to attend the memorial football match (it was a long drive for him to be fair) I offered to drive the part in between our town and the place where match was taking place but he declined offer.
Complained that he didn't get to play in goals for a short time during the match as he wanted to pay his respects - I told him I put his request forward but had no hand in the organisation of the event so couldn't do anything about that.
Said that I had been trying to provoke him into an argument for past two weeks.
Said I complained about time taken to arrange mortgage - it has been a lengthy complicated procedure but I never blamed him - was just frustrated that we had a moving day set etc.
Complained that we didn't go out for a meal on the Sunday eve...!!!! I offered several times. He said that a meal would have been good for us instead of the pressure to get back to hotel to babysit - that wasn't how it was at all - my daughter only went out because we didn't.
Complained that I drank water when we went for walk on Saturday afternoon - said it wasn't a great incentive for us to stay out an have another... I explained that we could have stayed out however long he'd wanted my choice of drink shouldn't be the deciding factor, I remember us leaving because we both felt hungry and wanted to have meal at home.
Complained he has high levels of stree due to work, mortgage, relationship with his daughters and our marriage.
He also seemed upset that other members of my family hadn't made effort to go to the memorial event when he has travelled so far - not sure why this bothers him it wasn't our do.
Said he'd heard us discussing my daughters ex's drug use in a negative way while not mentioning that my sister uses recreational drugs - again not sure what this has to do with anything.
I told him I was demented with all of this crap and that I was heading off to see my counsellor. He told me he thought counselling was a good idea for me and that he'd get a solicitor to deal with this from now on!!
I did see my counsellor on Monday eve and plan to see her in two weeks after her holiday.
Tuesday morning he text some other nonsense and I said I wasn't getting into a text argument. The next text I received was sent to me and our tenant who lives in the property he owns saying that the rental (that has been paid into my account since Feb this year and I feel has been a source of resentment for him) to be paid to his pension pot with immediate effect - this really struck me as a low blow. I only have a part time wage due to me to-ing and fro-ing between my town and work place and his every other week. He seems to want to punish or control or something.
I feel sad and really tired of it all. I'm going away for mums 60th tomorrow and I didn't want to feel this stressed. I'm sure we are heading for divorce now as I can't see me doing this forever. I'm dreading if he starts to beg and plead for us to remain together like he did back in December because I find that so difficult. I have (had) financial security, nice holidays, no money worries but it was obvious that he didn't like me receiving the rental - it was cast up several times. Now he has all his big wages and rental etc and I have my part time wage which isn't much but I can survive on it.

Just another thing I need to share. In April he bombarded me with requests for phone sex back and naked pictures - despite me telling him that I am not comfortable with it all - he even asked me to go to toilet in my work place and wouldn't stop the bombardment, I got back to my desk to several messages and pics of his penis etc I felt thoroughly sickened. He had been away on business for 9 days and didn't get any chances to call me during that time but his first night and following day back in uk he started all of this - we hadn't even had a normal conversation.

I am sorry the rant was so long, I hope to one day be in a healthy position to come back here and be able to advice and tell of a positive outcome - payback into this warm and supportive community.

Please comment and advise as much as possible - I really need to hear from as many of you who have the time to spare/share.
Many thanks

Hummer

Ps he also said that he could tell I did not want him to touch me last time we were together and that I hadn't put a drink in the fridge to cool for him after his long journey, like I normally do - all signs that I have stopped caring and am taking him for granted. He didn't mention the wardrobe full of ironed shirts I had done for him before I left or the large sums of money I saved him just last week by taking the time to phone round for solicitors fees and house insurance quotes etc - I don't want praise for any of this but all the good stuff goes unnoticed and he picks up on the negatives only.

Refiner

He sounds like a typical moody dry drunk starting fights just so he can have a reason to relapse. Plus, addicts almost always replace one addiction with another (to get some kind of "euphoria") and that can be achieved through things like becoming a fitness freak, over-eating, under-eating, getting into inappropriate relationships, or becoming hyper-sexual. Doesn't sound like fun, and I'm sorry for what it's become.

redatlanta

Sounds like a miserable dry drunk to me.

What do YOU want to do?