Wanting More

Old 11-24-2015, 08:23 PM
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Wanting More

Lately, I have found myself thinking about dating. Which, is nonsense. I'm still married and I haven't even started the divorce process. However, I have been an acting and physically separated single mother for 2 years, and emotionally separated for a few months now.

I recently went to an event by myself and while I was a there a man was very chivalrous towards me, and it meant nothing it was just good manners more than anything but I was so moved by it. It's so easy to get in and stay stuck in a space where you believe that things are your own fault but the more I get out by myself the more I accept that I'm worthy of being treated well, worthy of honesty, worthy of kindness and that there are so many people who will readily treat me that way.

I think more than anything I want the attention and I'm craving positive male attention, which while normal (especially in a totally loveless marriage) it's still inappropriate and I don't really know how to remedy it. :/

Any experience, strength or hope? (Please note that I'm not asking for opinions or judgement. I have normal feelings, I'm acknowledging them and sharing them, not acting on them in an unhealthy or harmful manner.) Thanks in advance!
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:37 PM
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I think its just part of the detachment process and healthy. I don't think its inappropriate.

Not sure to tell you how to remedy it. Seems you have been in limbo for a long time in the marriage - perhaps its time to move on.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:39 PM
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Are you still on the fence about staying married? This might be the final nail in the coffin, as it were.
Maybe acknowledging these feelings means you're really done waiting for your husband to find recovery and ready to move on.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ladyscribbler View Post
Are you still on the fence about staying married?
I don't want to be married to him anymore. There aren't any passionately negative or passionately positive feelings about it. I don't really care for him anymore. Like the attraction is gone.

I'm working hard to be a better version of myself...I deserve someone who is on that same level. Or at least, I want someone to share moments with who is on that same level. I miss doing couples stuff, but I don't really long to do couples stuff with AH... if that makes any sense. It's what makes dating sound so appealing, having fun with a guy where it's kind of carefree. AH is defensive about every other word that comes out of mouth. And every other word out of his mouth is a lie or backhanded. No other man treats me this way. Suffice it so say, he's not miserable all the time but he's too mean to me too frequently.

When my food allergy daughter is old enough to manage her own Epi Pen, there is no question for me.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:12 PM
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I've found the isolation difficult because I get the feeling I'm waking up emotionally and theres the wall between us. I can talk about it carefully with her, see if she's feeling that I'm adding to it or if I'm being accepting but theres not much to safely & easily talk about- theres a lot of anxiety and pain in her that I have to be careful of. Whether the wall will stay or not who knows. I find it kind of painful to see the same disengagement with our 9yr old daughter- she's starting to wonder about what puberty is, whats a period etc- I get those conversations, I work with all the homework, get her on the bus etc. For years before recovery I frequently put the screws to my wife often up to demanding that she participate in the household (without success) so I'm not doing <that> anymore. I guess I keep hoping she'll re-engage on her own, but every evening she's on her laptop watching the evening comedy central and/or knitting and usually comes to bed long after I'm asleep.

I have to watch my expectations & desires let things be as they are. I don't see the win opting for a separation & divorce w/ a 9yr old daughter in the balance, just so I can date again and be emotionally & physically intimate with another woman. Its possible I'd make the "once she's off at college" argument in 10 years but thats pretty major future-tripping so not worth the time spent thinking of it.

I don't want to live in limbo, but I'm grateful that she's not drinking and passed out on the couch tonight, and hasn't been for almost 2 years now. I'm grateful that we can go on a datenight, even though its pretty limited- many people don't have even that. I'm grateful we can talk about neutral topics without it turning into a fight every time. I'm <really> grateful I have my program and my books and my speaker recordings and my sponsor and my friends in my homegroup- I get a measure of emotional intimacy there- I'm not alone anymore even if I go to sleep by myself most nights.

Nowadays I'm going with Chuck C. All I <need> is to love unconditionally and be of service, do the things for free and for fun, and not be so sure I know what I need. They say I'll get a life beyond my dreams that way. Right now its a lot better than it was & thats pretty good.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:22 PM
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Stung, we'd have to be pretty hard hearted to judge you for wanting a normal loving relationship where both parties are considerate and polite. Even better if love's there as well.
At some point you might dip your toe in the water, and all the hard work you're doing on yourself will pay off. Even if you're not seriously looking you're getting used to normal male behaviour.
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by schnappi99 View Post
I've found the isolation difficult because I get the feeling I'm waking up emotionally and theres the wall between us. I can talk about it carefully with her, see if she's feeling that I'm adding to it or if I'm being accepting but theres not much to safely & easily talk about- theres a lot of anxiety and pain in her that I have to be careful of. Whether the wall will stay or not who knows. I find it kind of painful to see the same disengagement with our 9yr old daughter- she's starting to wonder about what puberty is, whats a period etc- I get those conversations, I work with all the homework, get her on the bus etc. For years before recovery I frequently put the screws to my wife often up to demanding that she participate in the household (without success) so I'm not doing <that> anymore. I guess I keep hoping she'll re-engage on her own, but every evening she's on her laptop watching the evening comedy central and/or knitting and usually comes to bed long after I'm asleep.

I have to watch my expectations & desires let things be as they are. I don't see the win opting for a separation & divorce w/ a 9yr old daughter in the balance, just so I can date again and be emotionally & physically intimate with another woman. Its possible I'd make the "once she's off at college" argument in 10 years but thats pretty major future-tripping so not worth the time spent thinking of it.

I don't want to live in limbo, but I'm grateful that she's not drinking and passed out on the couch tonight, and hasn't been for almost 2 years now. I'm grateful that we can go on a datenight, even though its pretty limited- many people don't have even that. I'm grateful we can talk about neutral topics without it turning into a fight every time. I'm <really> grateful I have my program and my books and my speaker recordings and my sponsor and my friends in my homegroup- I get a measure of emotional intimacy there- I'm not alone anymore even if I go to sleep by myself most nights.

Nowadays I'm going with Chuck C. All I <need> is to love unconditionally and be of service, do the things for free and for fun, and not be so sure I know what I need. They say I'll get a life beyond my dreams that way. Right now its a lot better than it was & thats pretty good.
Thank you so much for your share. A lot of what you said resonates with me, which is kind of funny because a lot of your wife's shares usually resonate with me.

My AH and I go on date nights about twice a month and for the most part we can talk about neutral subjects without conflict. And I play the "well what we have is better than a lot of other people" game in my mind too - he actually does a lot of stuff that my other mommy friends wish their husband's would do. My AH complains that he doesn't feel a connection with me. I don't feel one with him either, but I'm too hurt by everything he's done and continues to do (your wife has 2 years of sobriety...my AH has about 3 weeks right now).

My 4 year old noticed a few months ago that I took my wedding rings off and she's old enough to know what wedding rings mean and what they're for and she told me that it made her sad that I took mine off, so I put them back on. Kids are very intuitive and that makes me flip flop on this as well. Am I more concerned with their parents being "together" (although basically disconnected from one another) or am I more interested in showing them what a loving, invested, mutual relationship could look like if I was with someone willing to put that effort in?

I keep circling back to the fact that I emotionally want more and that I want my daughters to know that what I have isn't enough for me and I don't want them to settle for this as adults either. I frequently run into quotes about how we should "be the adult you want your children to become" and what I am now, the life that I'm settling for now...really isn't what I want for me or them. It's comfortable enough, I guess. I don't enjoy this relationship, my AH doesn't enjoy it. What are we modeling for our kids? KWIM? It's not miserable but is that the goal in a relationship: not miserable = acceptable?

I agree, my life and marriage is a lot better than it was. I'm not guessing at my own "potential" but I feel like there is more for me, if I want it. IDK. I also circle back around with the justification that these years (young kids + marriage) are supposed to be difficult, these are the work years and later on down the road come the gravy years. But the addition of addiction (young kids + marriage + addiction), especially addiction that has not been thus far arrested, makes it more than work, it's life draining. Life draining for all in contact with the addict.

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Old 11-25-2015, 05:47 AM
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I don't see the win opting for a separation & divorce w/ a 9yr old daughter in the balance, just so I can date again and be emotionally & physically intimate with another woman. Its possible I'd make the "once she's off at college" argument in 10 years but thats pretty major future-tripping so not worth the time spent thinking of it.

My ES&H. I do not have children but am the daughter of parents who should have divorced. Now they are old and sick. My dad is 80, my mom is 77.

I can't tell you how sad it is that at end life the one thing they chose to do wrong was stay married, and deny themselves happiness elsewhere be it with someone else or alone. I am convinced that near 100% of their marriage is the reason why they are both sick - its the stress. Denying yourself physical intimacy is stressful, denying yourself a healthy relationship is stressful, denying yourself companionship as opposed to accepting blunted "putting up with each other" is stressful, and then the periods of "black cloud" situations when it would all come to a peak and explode. There is nothing shameful, or wrong, about wanting something more with someone else, it doesn't reflect on your parenting Mine will say sometimes they wish they had never met, and they had a great marriage for about 15 years. They do love each other, they do have common interests, they do get along about 50% of the time.

Yet they also hate each other too, resent each other, blame each other, the other 50% of the time. I don't look back EVER and say to myself "Oh I am so glad mom and dad stayed together so we are not a product of divorce". It makes me sad they stayed married. Very sad. And there have been great and wonderful times - and we have pictures of my parents holding hands, kissing each other, great trips as a family, great times as a family. So what? It came at a large price for those Kodak moments - their happiness and a hardship on their kids.

I think the longer you stay in a relationship the harder it is to get out. I begged my dad to divorce when I was 18, wasn't a good time because we were in college. Then at 25 it wasn't a good time because we were all getting married. Then at 30 the grandkids were coming and it wasn't a good time. It was never a good time.

10 years is a lot of life to give up, imagine 56 year. Blink of an eye.

I think its admirable that you care so much about your child as to make that sacrifice, but there is a flip side that affects the child very negatively in the choice to stay in an unhappy marriage.
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:32 AM
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Thanks Stung, I wonder about my example too. I talk about the alanon & step work- tell her when I'm going to a meeting, took her to the joint AA/Alanon cookout over the summer, occasionally take her to meet the kids of another alanon I've gotten to know. I acted out in front of her, so I'm trying to recover the same way. So thats one example.

But marriage-wise, my parents divorced when I was in high school- father left because my mother was isolating and drinking and I have heard hints about a few affairs on his part- so thats an example I'd rather not repeat. If there was active addiction, then I would be taking immediate action- but there isn't. There isn't outrageous activity, nor are we fighting or cold so though the current situation isn't what I would prefer, it is functional & we're getting along with one another.

I sure know 10 years can pass quickly. OTOH I clearly remember how painful it was when my dad left, and it is no sacrifice at all (to me at least) to stay together and not impose something like that on our daughter- life will be tough enough for her as it is. What I <can> do right now are the living amends to her and her mother- demonstrate a respectful and involved dad & husband.

And one final thought about what other relationships might be like; my 4th step revealed some prominent destructive relationship patterns, I would be bringing all the as-yet undiscovered baggage to the next one too. The grass may only look greener over there, if you will. Or to paraphrase an AA saying, I'm looking with what brought me here.
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:37 AM
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From personal experience, I felt quite similar to you, Stung. Now, I would have never cheated on my now ex husband, or any other man, but we lost our spark long time ago, he was very mean to me, and he said a couple of things that became an absolute sexual turn-off. What I did was day dreaming, asking myself, how would it feel with a "normal" guy? What would our evenings be like? And I started noticing "hunks," never talked to them, never even said hi, but I was noticing other men. Period. And that was telling me where my emotions were. I acknowledged these feelings, I was honest to myself. So there was the last nail in the coffin.

But tell you what, after divorce, I do not ask these questions anymore. When I was in a relationship, I wondered what a normal one would look like, but it did not mean I was to look for a relationship in some kind of a dating frenzy. At the moment, I do not want a man, I do not feel like dating, and I simply do not feel like going through the process. I'm tired, I'm drained. This marriage pretty much drained life out of me. And there is still so much crap to clean after my ex, debts to pay, reestablish old connections.

Just trying to say that what you are feeling is quite natural. But it does not have to mean that you really want to look for another guy or date. It may only mean that you are not getting what you want, and deserve, and perhaps are ready for a change.
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Old 11-25-2015, 01:02 PM
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Is the 3 weeks of sobriety with active recovery? Early sobriety is a difficult time for any relationship, IMO. My husband is 12 days sober and this is the first time it's looked completely different. Not white knuckling it. Going to meetings, calling other AA members, facing things he's never sat down and faced before, emotionally. It's difficult any which way, and on my end, my "dis-ease" increases tri-fold instead of becoming easier. I've double-downed on my recovery from this Family Disease of Alcoholism. I have a lot of isms. More meetings, calling, setting up coffee dates with women in my groups, more reading, more praying. My sponsor and other Alanon friends have been very helpful with sharing what's made a difference with themselves. I was wanting to run, hide, put up barriers and walls. That's not about him, that's about me. Most days I'm able to say, "I want to be curious. I want to be supportive. I want to be loving." That doesn't mean I'm ready to be curious, loving and supportive, yet I'm opening myself up to that and I'm having more fun, especially with conversations with my husband and on a date with him last weekend.

We're currently living apart as I'm not spiritually fit enough to live full time with alcoholism, even (especially?) in early recovery. It's not up to him to live up to a standard set by me. It's a place of discovery within myself. One day at a time. Just for today. More will be revealed.
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Old 11-25-2015, 03:53 PM
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Early recovery sure is tough, I was pretty nasty towards my wife for 3-4 months till the program started sinking in. I was perfectly happy to rub her face in it using Alanon terminology in front of the marriage counsellor & had no tolerance whatever for her raw early sobriety nerves. "She's the one who was drinking, etc.." it took a lot of program work to get my claws off her and start to practice the 3 G's (get off her back, get out of her way, get on with my life). Takes a lot of program work to keep doing it too

I owe her a 9th step amends and am totally willing but my sponsor and I think I am not ready, theres a lot more to gain awareness of and I think its likely getting into it with my wife would be painful for her at present. My sponsor is very firm that my program cannot be at the expense of anyone else's pain- so meantime I have living amends to my behavior to work on. The formal 9th step with her will happen when its ready.
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:57 PM
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Hi Stung,
Just wanted to chime in with my experience. I gave up on my 20 year marriage recently. I'd been trying to get my AH into recovery for about the past 5 miserable years. This summer while I was able to get away for a few weeks, it became clear to me that I was spending my life knocking my head against the wall, trying to get someone else to make a change that only he can control. To your point, I also met a couple of men who reminded me of how it feels to be respected and valued. But my husband and I have three kids, 9, 14, and 15, so I had similar concerns about staying together for their sake.

I finally decided that it's more important for my daughters to see their mother stand up for herself than for me to stay in a miserable, sometimes abusive, relationship, somehow for their sake.

I moved out two weeks ago. The girls seem just fine, even happy, playing games and laughing together. My husband finally seems committed to his recovery, an attitude which I hope lasts. And me? If there is such a thing as the honeymoon phase of a divorce, I'm feeling it. There have been rough moments, but for the most part I'm breathing and living in a way that I had almost forgotten was possible. I was feeling mildly suicidal before--fantasizing about 'accidentally' careening off the freeway. Now I can't wait to wake up in the morning and see the wide blue ocean stretching before me, metaphorically and literally.

When my husband was talking about how integral alcohol is to his life, his doctor said, "change is hard." I remember that when the going gets tough--that just because it feels hard doesn't mean that it's wrong. I've also realized that at a certain point, not changing may be even harder. . . and it can certainly eat up your life. Making this change has and does feel hard, but I have no desire to go back.
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Old 11-26-2015, 06:38 AM
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I don't know, Stung.
I mean, at the end of the day, it's all about choices.
There'll always be someone telling you what's right and what's wrong in their mind, but they're not the ones who have to live your life. You are.

So all I can do is tell you my viewpoint, based on my experiences. Which are different from yours. My alcoholic marriage was also abusive, and my ex had some pretty serious mental illness problems separate from his alcoholism. I think tthat may actually make things more black and white -- there was never a "but what if he gets sober and I've robbed my kids of having both their parents in a great marriage" thought because there wasn't one but several strikes against even a sober AXH.

And maybe that's the big difference. I never had to consider "maybe he'll get sober and it'll get better" because honestly, by the time I left, I knew that would never happen. Not even the "getting sober" part.

When I was contemplating leaving him, someone said something to me that I've used afterwards too, for situations I found myself in: "If it never got better; if this is what you would be living with for the rest of your life -- would you be contented with that choice?"

I will tell you that building a new life after the alcoholic marriage has not been easy. I found a man-companion-husband who meets my needs and knows me inside and out. There is still the step-parent situation AND the fallout of the kids having grown up with an alcoholic father to contend with. It's been hell at times, but it's been a constructive hell; a hell with a light at the end of the tunnel; a hell that it felt worth working my tail off for getting straightened out. Because at the end of the day, regardless of what's been going on, I get to crawl into bed with a partner who pulls his weight (and then some) in our relationship. Not someone who needs coddling and reassurance and boundaries and reminders. Not someone who drains my energy but someone who replenishes it.

I don't know where I would be without the support he has provided.

And I think the question I would ask you is -- for whose benefit are you considering keeping up the separated-but-married business?

Is it to somehow continue supporting your AH's move towards sobriety (being his caretaker)? Or is it because "it's better for the children"? (Is it better for the children? Even if it's a lie?)

I think your question in one of your posts is really profound and really important:
Am I more concerned with their parents being "together" (although basically disconnected from one another) or am I more interested in showing them what a loving, invested, mutual relationship could look like if I was with someone willing to put that effort in?
My oldest, who was moved out when I remarried, has said several times that "I envy my siblings who get to see first-hand what a loving marriage looks like. I never had that, and I don't know how to do something I've never seen modeled for me."

Young kids are always going to want their parents together. My youngest wanted us to get back together until I sat her down and tried to understand what it was she was missing. And she said "well, I don't want to LIVE with Dad the way he is right now, and I don't want his drinking and anger, but I also don't want my parents to be divorced. Somehow, she had already at age 8 or so developed a full-blown codie thinking where "if only my parents stay together Dad will stop drinking and we'll all live happily ever after."

I don't know what the right answer is for you. But I kind of think you'll figure it out the same way you've gotten to this point -- you've been incredibly thoughtful and patient and not rushed anything. I really believe in you.
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:56 PM
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Hello Stung,

I have faith you will do the right thing at the right time for the right reasons.

You took off your rings? And then only put them on for your daughter's sake? Sounds like you were signaling a truth to me...
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