53500

That is a beautiful picture to think of, thank you.

I believe God answers too, 1,000%. God is faithful. **{Hugs}} Four, you are a strong and brave woman and you've been through hell. I totally understand your struggle with guilt. Guilt is a killer; I struggle with it too more than anything else. But if God forgives - well you know the rest!

So very sorry you endured that abuse.

biminiblue

Lexie, thank you for that post.

I think AA and Al Anon really fall down when it comes to victims of trauma and abuse. That was one of the reasons I didn't stay in AA. It definitely takes another type of healing that does not focus so much on the victim. Al Anon and the Steps can lead trauma victims to blame themselves for things that were in no way justified. I believe in never blaming the victim. Never.

Forourgirls, I've been in three abusive relationships. Two of them became physical. Did I have some problems, too? Absolutely. Did I become abusive? No. I didn't call them names, I didn't degrade them, I didn't use physical force. No one deserves to be treated the way you were treated. Unfortunately it is difficult to find actual support from friends and relatives unless they've been in a similar relationship or have seen him acting out. Abusers are highly skilled manipulators who rarely let the crazy out around family members. That leaves the victim looking like a shrill complainer.

Do not blame yourself. Even for picking that guy or staying with him. You had love and hope and good intentions. I refuse to apologize or "make amends" for that in any way.

I gained a lot of insights from books like, "People of the Lie," and "The Dance of Anger" and "The Dance of Intimacy." They are classics in self-help and really spoke to me.

Go, Mama Lion.

LexieCat

It would be good, I think, if there were an AA or Al-Anon pamphlet that addressed the issue--or if it were included in pamphlets like "Problems Other Than Alcohol" (an AA pamphlet that addresses getting help for mental health problems, among others). I wouldn't discourage anyone from using AA or Al-Anon, but rather I would encourage abuse victims to get that adjunct help from experts on abuse, and to be very careful in choosing a sponsor to find one who with some understanding of the effects of living in an abusive relationship.

When I'm talking about "abuse" in this sense, I am talking about "battering" (which does not need to be physical, but is about exercise of power and control rather than selfish, mean behavior resulting from addiction). I want to stress that for the person on the receiving end it can hurt just as much if it's a product of addiction, but the dynamics are a little different and the level of danger is often different, too, and as well as what is needed to heal.

biminiblue

My concern in AA was that many of the women in AA needed to be in Al Anon even more. The two programs may mesh in some ways, but I was not willing to have a sponsor in AA who was still married to an alcoholic or who displayed many of the behaviors of attempting to control others. I began trusting my own judgment over that of well-meaning strangers many years before I walked into my first AA meeting. My healing from codependent relationships began in 1987 - and I didn't relapse into alcoholism until 2007. To listen to women in AA, I felt like many of them were still stuck in untreated codependency. Yeah, they put down the drink, but they sounded very sick from where I sat.

In all fairness, I didn't give anyone the opportunity to walk me through the steps. I couldn't find anyone who I felt had what I wanted - but I only stayed in for three months or so - I didn't feel I would bloom in the program. That may sound like the arrogance of an alcoholic, but I still believe I made the right decision. All I really needed was time away from alcohol and time with God to regain my center. Many people in AA still think they need to play God with newcomers or sponsees and that raised all kinds of red flags for me.

LexieCat

Sounds like you made the right decision for you, then. I don't think it sounds like arrogance--you simply did the internal work necessary for you to recover in your own way. I think AA is pretty clear that it isn't the final word on recovery, just that its program often works when all else fails. That's what I've seen--but I know lots of happy, healthy recovered alcoholics outside the rooms.

Liveitwell

Bimini-see, I was verbally abusive towards him-many years ago. I, ME, could get out of control when I drank as well. Absolutely. And I was depressed as hell. He and his mom made fun of me dealing with depression. Nice. A lot of the depression stemmed from my choice to end pregnancies and more than that I was depressed I didn't stand up for myself-and I started feeling stuck and crazy in a situation where he called me crazy any time he could-and always apologizing it wouldn't happen again. This morning I woke up recalling many things-he told me he had stopped drinking while I was pregnant with our first child-one night he came home slurring and I just had it out with him. He called me a crazy b and I just went for the jugular-and he threatened to record my outbursts to show me how I acted towards him. Yes-that was me. I'm accountable for them. I recall how many times after we had our first child that it started being my fault when he treated me badly-first few years it was his fault and "I can't believe I could treat you that way-what is wrong with me?!"...went to "you made me do this-look at how you're acting-you're crazy". His mom supported that I was just crazy and deserved his treatment (of which I am certain he did not tell her the truth of his actions). I recall asking him one night if he thought it was his moms fault that his dad treated her like crap and abused all of them-his respinse? No-my mom is a queen. So it wasn't her fault but it was mine?! Um, no. He would tell me that he treated everyone else in his life great and he didn't understand why he treated me, his wife that he loved, the way he did-told me I made him treat me that way. NO-the reason he treated me , his wife, the way he did was because that is exactly the way he saw his dad treat his mom-it's all he knew-his dad treated his mom like property. He was an arrogabt abusive maniac when he drank. My ex would tell me that he had never treated another woman the way he treated me-thereby making it my fault. And I believed him for years when he told me nobody liked me, that everyone thought I was crazy and that he was the only person that had my back and supported me. I've never said those things to him-I did absolutely lash out at him in anger but I never intentionally tore him down. He would get drunk and tell me he wasn't good enough or that I didn't think he was good enough. For years he told me I no longer made him happy-and I felt so guilty for not being good enough to make him stop treating me the way he did. He told me I deserved it. He told me I wasbt a good person. And truthfully, I did tell him he was a worthless POS bc I felt at the time that statement was accurate based on how he treated his wife and kids. He would laugh at me when I told him something hurt....or complained about his antics. He would discuss his mom like he was married to her. Literally. 11 years ago when we met he told me he was a mommas boy - and he was a ball of anger when I met him. But I tempered that anger for a while-but it was still there. He told me I made him better and also made him treat me horribly-never HIM owning any of it. And 11 years later he's living with his mom, drinking and angry-hmmm, yeah, it's as if nothing has changed for him. His mom always told me I took her boy away from her and that he needed to move home with her bc she could love him better than any woman could. I almost choked on vomit a few times listening to her talk about her "boy". And I was terrified to stand up to his mom bc he told me I wasn't allowed to do that bc she was his mom. The dysfunction that was there at the beginning just got amplified by a million towards the end. I started seeing him as a little puppet on a string that his mother was manipulating. He always thought he didn't make enough money-had major insecurity re being successful-I was always proud of him-always. He worked hard at what he did-I never once complained about him not being enough-but he would project that onto me. Telling me I thought he wasn't good enough-and would get nasty drunk and tear me apart for things that sometimes were unrelated to me and made no sense. It was freaky and creepy and scary abd just so abnormal abd I just wanted it to stop. I was told my type A personality made him angry at me, I was told when I was stressed out it stressed him out and he got drunk, and I was told that if I made him happier he wouldn't have to get drunk...and the kicker was when I was 8 months pregnant he was literally drunk 24 hours a day for many many months after his dad died-and abusive in so many ways....he told me I should have been more supportive and showed him more love. Uh huh. I was blamed hot his behavior and he still takes no responsibility for anything he's done. Post divorce has been threats, more and more lies, abuse, and not a care in the world of how he's impacted me or his children. It's disgusting. Everything he's done is justified in his mind. The farther out I get and the more time that goes by with spending time with healthy people and create a normal life here at home, the more I see how absolutely awful he was, at times. During our divorce he admitted that he could be "not as nice" and violent when he drinks-I very much agreed. Didn't stop him. I just wanted him to get help-I think I stayed so long bc I thought he wanted to stop-and get to the bottom of HIM-bc I did love him.

Sorry-rambling today. I do need some help processing all of this and I plan on reaching out on Monday. Thank you for listening if you've gotten this far!!

Step12

I like the way you wrote your post. You took a while to express your anxiety fear and anger and you actually talk to yourself down out of it because the last paragraph was quite healthy actually. It's obvious to me that you have all this inside of you you have the knowledge and you have the will and the desire to get better and to not have these feelings it's amazing what sharing and journaling can do for us as alcoholics. Sometimes all we need is a jumpstart and then clarity comes it's OK to have anxiety on occasion as long as you can talk yourself down off that ledge or find somebody else to do it you have an understanding of this disease you're very well aware of what's going on and awareness is a huge key

LexieCat

Be careful about comparing apples and oranges. Your conduct to his. Totally different animals. When I read what you've written I sense that on some level you get it, but I don't like to think of the things you said as "abuse." Was he afraid of you? Did he dread coming home because he never knew what might set you off? Did you make him feel worthless or crazy? I doubt it. He may have used things that you said in anger and frustration as ammunition to justify his own behavior, but the way he behaved was to keep you under his thumb.

Context--it is so critically important.

Step12

It sounds as if the person you're talking about is taking up a lot of free rent in your brain. You may be in a situation where you feel trapped because I get in the situations myself. Do your journaling here I wouldn't start any of this with him it could get ugly or even dangerous that's my recommendation. A lot of times we try to help fix other people and really we want to be right and punish sometimes. The person you speak up has a great problem but it can't be your problem pray for him for two weeks if you want to and when he comes at you and hits hard protect your children and protect yourself even if that means you have to go get shelter somewhere unfortunately people don't change unless they want to change themselves on their own in the doctors opinion they call it frothy emotional appeal there's really nothing you can say to this person that's going to make them change they have to hit a bottom themselves

Liveitwell

Note to self-when a "man" tells you he just wants you to live him the way his mom does and let him do whatever he wants-RUN!!!!! I should have run!!! Ten years later all the red flags were huge titanic demons - I forgive myself for overlooking those or thinking they would get better. Won't happen again.
Lexie-no, he did not fear for his safety-yes, he did dread coming home bc he knew I wanted him to stop drinking so he knew invariably I would be in a bad mood. Pretty accurate. No, I did not systematically demoralize him or discuss borderline crazy attachment and love to my parents. No, I did not scare him into submission. I loved him-I wanted to support him, and I, getting healthy and to the root of each persons issues-bc I did wabt to be married to him-bc of all the good things about him, that decreased each year. On some level I feel like Lady discussed on another thread-that he will just go on with his life never addressing what he has done and not ever treat another woman the same way-thereby making it my fault. Sad that I think that. But I know that will not be the case. I had no idea how deep his demons ran and how bad they were-I still don't and really it's none of my busibess. I always supported him figuring it out but he told me he was the way he was abd could not change. So, ok. Checkmate.

Liveitwell

Lexie-yes, he justifies his actions with anything. Typical alcoholic. Doesbt take responsibility for abything bc I was there to blame. I have to ask though-isn't me saying "I was depressed bc of x, y, z-one main thing feeling like I was going crazy with the lies from, all the broken promises, living in crazy land).... Isn't that justifying me actions based on what he did? I don't justify-and I never did. Never. I owned my actions. I recall during our divorce that the other half of his brain and the love of his life (i.e. His sister) told him to be careful if he ever went home bc I may videotape sonething to use against him....lightbulb moment-gee, where does he get his sick twisted thinking?!? Yes-it would be my fault for videotaping-not His for acting like a drunken loon and verbally abusing me or the kids-my fault for shining a light on it. It all kind of makes sense now-protect him at all cost-even lie, slander and blame with not one thought that maybe I was telling the truth-not even one ounce of concern for our children.
I get it. He used ME to justify his deplorable actions-I watched him do it to his own daughter too-and still does it. It is abuse. It's taken me years and coming to a place of acceptance and not caring about hurting his feelings or what he would think of me to call it what it is. I'm so done rationalizing HIS actions bc (and I believed him) of sonething I did ten years ago, or any other reason. Done.
Thank you for putting things into context for me.