I feel a storm coming on...so much for walking on eggshells.
 

I posted this in the wrong forum so I'm re-posting here.

Yesterday my son said something that must have subconsciously bothered me, I went to bed early (and no problems falling asleep) to get some much needed rest but woke up around 4am ANGRY, and I just couldn't go back to sleep. In my morning conversation with my 2 months sober AH today he asked me what happened and I told him what our son said said yesterday...yesterday my son came up to me and out of the blue says "he's a hypocrite, he's a hypocrite" in a mockingly fashion. I told him to be quiet and cut out his nonsense but he repeated it again. Then I said "who's a hypocrite"? He said "daddy". I said "you don't even know what a hypocrite is". He said "yes I do". I asked him "what is it"? He said "someone who drinks and drives and takes pictures of women's butts". I didn't even know what to say back, my father and I just looked at each other in dismay and shock.
My son is 6, we've tried our best to hide certain things as all parents do but there's only so much you can hide. They overhear and my son can read very well. His AF's drinking has been occuring since he was in my womb...his drinking and driving, falling asleep in the car with bottles (engine on) and other behaviors has been heard coming out of our families mouths (AH's and mine) since he was born so it's no surprise that my son is aware of these things. I have had recent arguments and convos with AH about 2 or 3 inappropriate pics on his instagram of women's behinds, and I suppose this was overheard too.
I have a little anxiety this morning because I'm scared of what may come of what my son said. When I told AH what happened yesterday and told him I woke up angry this morning about a combination of things that have been occurring with me emotionally (refrained from getting into his part as advised by SR), he asked me if I was upset about the way his son is portraying him and I said "of course but I'm also upset because those pictures should not be on there, what kind of example are you setting". After a pause he then said he was going to get his day started and I said ok. Although he said this in a nice tone I could sense the anger behind it, now I'm worried about in argument happening because "I'm painting him in a bad light" and his son is observing this.....my fault as usual!
I've never talked negatively about him to my kids and no matter what he ever does I will never do that but I'm worried that is going to cause a big argument that my nerves just can't handle. Nothing has happened yet and I'm already forecasting the upcoming stress I feel I'm going to endure. so much for walking on eggshells...

He may not get upset with me but I'm scared that he will, how do I respond if he does?

You're worrying about something that hasn't happened yet. Unless you fear a violent reaction, if he gets upset, he gets upset. You don't have to engage with him.

Still, what were your motives in telling him what your son said? At the moment, he's supposedly working on his recovery. Were you trying to shame him? To "motivate" him? Neither one of those is likely to have any good effect. Your efforts would be better spent on getting some help for your son about the anger he's feeling about his dad's behavior. It probably would have been more worthwhile for you to share this remark of your son's with a counselor at his school so they can be aware of it and work with him in processing those feelings.

I definitely didn't want to shame him. He is supposed to be working on his recovery but that doesn't mean that as a wife and mother to his children that I'm supposed to ignore inappropriate behavior and not show him that he's setting a poor example. My intentions were purely to show him exactly what I've been telling him about his hypocritical ways. He's always preaching about god and the bible, telling the women in his family that men should want them for their mind and spirit, not their bodies but then he has pictures of booties on his social media. Is that what he wants our daughter following? He has a young niece that he says is too grown for her age and she looks up to him, what is she thinking when she sees his page? Wonder where her influences come from!

For the past few months my son makes references to butts almost 20 times a day and it's because my husband it always teasing me about me working out and saying that my butt is getting bigger from squats, he slaps it, squeezes it and makes jokes to the kids. My children repeat everything and now everything is about booties to my son, he draws pictures of them and my father is constantly reprimanding about his comments. My husband denies that it's from him, he says its the TV but I KNOW he knows it from, he just wants to deny (as usual) So between my AH's booty comments and my anger about his booties on his instagram, my son has developed a butt obsession and I am angry about it.

Does recovery mean let him have his way and not speak on things that are inappropriate?

He's going to AA meetings but he's attending studio sessions (environment where there's drugs/alcohol left & right), he's attending parties and events and shooting a music video this weekend where all his drinking buddies will be there (bottles in tow). And I mention that you only to show you that's he's picking and choosing which pieces of recovery he wants to follow. I say nothing to him about is recovery, his meeting or his "music environment and endeavors". his recovery is his and I'm getting better (still got a lot to learn) at staying out of it and not trying to control what he does and doesn't do.

You're right, I shouldn't be worrying about something that hasn't happened yet. That's part of my ptsd and I don't know how to quite control it yet, I've always feared his anger and I start to get anxious when I know he's angry about something.

You're right, I don't have to engage with him but when he starts asking questions to try to MAKE me engage how do I get out of that?

I remember these anxious moments Dim, the adrenaline, the headache, the exhaustion of always. having. to. have. an. issue. on. my. mind. Always. in-the-middle-just-finishing-getting-ready-to-have an argument because it was like we were speaking 2 different languages.

I can say this - it isn't OK for you to have this level of anxiety over a conversation with your husband about his 6-yr old knowing about inappropriate pics he has. You aren't wrong for being concerned with what you son thinks/sees/hears. But that doesn't give you the control to make him see it from your POV & that is probably, the single most victimized feeling I've had in this process. That I couldn't make my feelings matter to my AH, a man who had sworn all kinds of amazing things to me when we got married & had spent 10+ yrs living up to those promises until this beast took over inside of him.

This is why we say there is no protecting kids 100% from the effects of having an active alcoholic parent.... because you can't even know all the ways they're being influenced & you can't raise them in a bubble completely. The reality is, this is part of the progression of it as a FAMILY disease& why WE ALL need support & education & recovery about it.

He gets upset? Let him! It's HIS actions that your son is putting on trial here. Any anger he shows is a mask for his other, stuffed emotions, IMO. Embarrassment, shame, fear? :dunno: Not my monkey, could be any number of things upsetting it. The picking & choosing of the pieces of recovery is a Giant, Red, Waving Flag, Friend. You can't have one foot in & one foot out of recovery. It does NOT work. I have BTDT, I have the T-shirt if you wanna see it. :)

The important thing right now is what are you doing for YOU today & for DS? :hug:

"I'm not having this conversation right now."

then walk away.

Honestly.... short, direct, non-confrontational responses.

Your son is asking for your help. He is scared and confused and doesn't have the words to express himself so he is using what he has overheard and absorbed from adult discussions.
I was a kid in a household like yours. We see and hear EVERYTHING. All the stuff you think you're hiding? We see and hear that the most clearly because it has the most potential for putting us in danger (physical, emotional, psychological) and the purpose of our hyperawareness is so that we can feel safe. So that we can feel like we have some kind of control over the out of control situation in our homes.
You're still stuck in the pattern of revolving around your husband and your children are in between the two of you, being pulled along with whatever orbital path the adults in their lives take.
Please get some help. For you individually- make time for Alanon. Find a meeting with childcare or have your husband watch the kids. He's sober right now and you're staying with him, so maybe he can start taking some baby steps to rebuild his relationships with them. And for the kids. This dynamic is so destructive to them. I can see that you're blaming your husband, but you married him, you had children with him and you have stayed with him despite years of unacceptable behavior.
I suspect that more than anything, the inappropriate Instagram pics are what's REALLY bothering you, but what possessed you to use your son as a pawn here? You've managed to triangulate what he confided in you into a swipe at your husband. It's horrible to be a child in that situation, let me tell you. And it doesn't end until the parents make a conscious choice and take the steps to stop it.
Sorry if this is harsh, but may I respectfully suggest that you do some reading around the ACoA forum? You guys aren't hiding anything, and by trying to hide it, you're giving it huge, destructive power.

Thanks FS...after work I'm working out at home, going help kids with homework, bathe them and then maybe play some games with them. AH won't be around the entire weekend due to his "video shoot" but I'm going to try to get a sitter so I can catch a meeting and I'll be trying my best to keep occupied.

Oh, you made this ACoA cry, Lady. Everything you said is so true.

My BFF's DD8 is going through this right now & it is breaking my heart. She's so, so, so unhappy & feels constant stress that she can't define so she just keeps having these hysterical crying fits & starts spitting back words she's heard other people say.


NOT accusing you of this, but in the effort of sharing our own experiences, I can admit now - *I* would have picked a fight going into a weekend like this..... I might not have understood myself doing it, but I would have found some reason to upset him because *I* was feeling unable to control him & his actions. When that bubbled up in me, I lashed out at him. Especially with the instagram pic issue too, I'd be feeling vulnerable & feel better putting it on him because, in my mind, it was all his fault anyway. Just my experience, took me a long time to see/admit.

What about getting some help for your son? Counselor (at school or elsewhere)?

I just want to chime in here and say that when I was in the thick of it, this was MUCH easier said than done. In our dynamic, my STBXAH viewed it as the ultimate sign of disrespect if I walked away. At the time, I felt like my options were 1) sit there and listen to his crap, or 2) walk away and have him follow me around the house berating me within earshot of our children as his anger got worse.

Now I know that I had another option, which was of course to leave and file for divorce. But my brain and my heart just weren't there yet. In any event, my STBXAH's particular brand of abusiveness was such that walking away made things MUCH worse.

I don't think I used my son as a pawn, I told the truth about something that happened, something that he said. Was I not supposed to tell him what his son said?

Please help me because this is something that I've struggled with for years....on may occasions things have happened or bothered me and I said nothing! On other occasions things have happened and I did say something. This just seems like another damned if I do and damned if I don't subject the way your describing it.

This, exactly.

And if he pursues you and the argument, that is abusive and scary, and you are allowed to take the kid(s) and get in the car and drive away to a safe more comfy spot for the night.

My last fight with XA was like that, it was terrifying and it is NOT OK to follow someone and get in their face to get them to engage. Do you have a friends house you could go to if he gets ugly?

I've contemplated this before. I'm honestly scared that my AH is going to be embarrassed and get extremely upset with me because he thinks that the kids are fine. He's theeeeeeee most private person I've ever know and both of our families have confirmed how private he is. I've had to endure years of verbal and emotional abuse because of me reaching out to our families/friends for emotional and physical support (for the kids) and our family business getting out. Things weren't that bad, I exaggerate and cry for nothing, according to him.

I think I may try to make a small mention of it to gauge what his thoughts are in hopes that he doesn't get angry.

I'm currently living with my parents and he's back renting his mother's basement, we're 5 minutes from each other.

Absolutely agree - safety & not contributing to any escalation is the priority, Always.

There were also times I should have walked away (but didn't) & it was MY words or actions that scared DD more. THAT was a wakeup call for me too.

You initially told your son to be quiet and "cut out his nonsense" when he tried to express his feelings to you. You then invalidated him further by telling him he didn't understand what he was talking about. Then instead of addressing the issue with your son, you ran straight to your husband and told him to make sure he knew that there was someone else "on your side" to rub in his face how wrong you believe his behavior is.
"Protecting privacy" in an alcoholic home is a synonym for hiding, keeping secrets and pretending that everything is fine. When something disturbs that surface patina, like your son did with his outburst, your first reaction is to squash the disturbance and discredit the one who rocked the boat. Then you use it as ammunition against your husband.
How many dozens and hundreds of times have you "told your husband the truth?" How many of those times did it make even a tiny difference in his behavior? Not running to your husband with every little thing isn't the same as constantly stuffing all of your feelings. He has proven time and again that he is not a "safe" person to confide in, especially if your confidence involves some unflattering truth about him. Find a therapist to confide in, or an Alanon sponsor. Keeping these things "in the family" is not healthy or helpful.

Honestly, that's not what I was trying to do. I was trying to do the opposite-I've been overly nice and giving him space to do all his running around and his errands. In fact, I didn't even want to say anything because I didn't want him being in a negative space this weekend. I've stuffed things hundreds of times to let him get though a day or a week of something so its very common of me to bite my tongue until I feel the time is right and sometimes I just "stuff" forever and NEVER say anything because the time never seems right.

I know what you're saying but I can sincerely say that I wasn't trying to put a damper on his weekend.

Mine was the EXACT same way Dim, secrets were necessary in order to protect his addiction. The secrets & BS went on during the non-recovering-but-sober period too & should have been a big sign about his impending relapse.

This disease literally thrives off of the secret keeping; it keeps a lot of doors open for him & keeps you isolated & feeling like you can't reach out for help. It fed his illusions that everything was as OK as he had labelled it in his mind. Ripping the lid off the secrets jar freed me, I needed to call things what they REALLY were in order to stop feeling crazy.

Can you get some help with the kids for this weekend so you can really take some time for yourself while he's occupied? Making time for meetings & doing some reading is great... and when was the last time you just took a couple of hours OFF? For yourself? It's nearly impossible with small kids (DD was about 5 when AH & I split for about 2 yrs & I was essentially a single mom) but necessary.

Is this a viable way to live, really? Walking on eggshells for someone you are "separated from" (sounds like he's over there all the time except for work and his weekend activities), who may or may not be committed to sobriety, where you can't even get help for your child who is acting out as a result of what he's been living with? I'm not seeing how any of this scenario is healthy or good for anyone involved.

Have you considered a REAL separation--as in living your own independent existence for several months at least? Right now you are so up in each other's heads you might as well be living together (not that I think that is a good idea, either). Neither one of you has space to focus on your own issues.

I think some real space would give you a fresh perspective on what you want for your life and your kids' lives.