Am I wasting my time?
 

Having a rough morning, at my desk feeling like I'm crying on the inside. My AH and I have been getting along well these past few weeks and he's still sober (2months) but I'm still struggling with giving my heart to him again. We're still married but kinda stuck in limbo of staying together or divorce and the decision mainly mine to make as he wants the marriage while I'm not sure. I'd been stuffing a lot of feelings lately because it feels like when I do try to explain the reason for my indecisiveness it doesn't go well. This morning on our 7:30Am call that we have most mornings on my way to work he asked me again what's wrong and he feels like I'm pulling away. I hesitated for a long while, thinking to myself if I should stuff it or speak (knowing that I won't end well). I decided to speak and when I did it ended just as I suspected. I'm trying to explain to him that I love him, want our family to work but I'm so guarded because of the past trauma and emotional abuse. He went off and started comparing things that I've done in the past and how I hate when he keeps dwelling on events and now I'm doing it. I tried to explain to him that dwelling on an event is different from someone suffering from trauma for years of strings of events. Then he said "well there's nothing that I can do at this point about your trauma" and I told him "yes there is". I told him that he can stop underplaying my trauma and stop playing the victim role, have some empathy and give me some words of comfort just to AT LEAST make me feel like he has some understanding and is working on changing some his destructive ways. I told him that I "stuff things" because he doesn't respond well when I speak. He'll say that he's always asking me what's wrong, showing that he cares about my feelings but then when I tell him he avoids it or it ends up in an argument. I also mentioned how he's been procrastinating on getting counseling, he keeps making mentions but still hasn't picked up the phone. I did my best to keep calm while he was upset and yelling and told him I didn't want to ruin the remainder of the day. He got mad and said it WAS ruining his morning and he's getting off the phone now.
He then texted me about 30 mins and apologized but then said that he feels like he's putting so much energy and devotion into an unsalvageable part of his life. I don't even know how to respond to him...

How do I explain to him that I've suffered 3rd degree burns time and time again for years and he's asking me to play with fire again? I can play with fire again but not without first feeling a decent amount of confidence in my protective gear. Am I wrong for wanting some reassurance that I have a little bit of protective gear this time around? I'm not scared of a relapse or a slip, that can happen and I'm ok with that, its the emotional abuse that I can't do again but if he can't recognize that how can I expect it to change? Why is he underplaying my trauma? Getting empathy from him is like pulling teeth, he may give it to me at times but its almost like I have to tell him what to say and him it to him on a platter in order to get it from him then it doesn't even feel sincere. Is there something wrong with me?

I went to therapy yesterday (new therapist, 2nd visit) and that was a nightmare. She was shaking and falling asleep! I had to ask her twice if she was ok, then she told me that she recently had lung surgery and had permanent nerve damage, the Dr had her on 3000 mgs of something and it made her drowsy. She was out of if, asking me questions she already knew, I left there feeling even more angry than when I arrived. Last week she was great and made a wonderful impression, I don't know what happened yesterday. I'm giving her one more shot next week.....sigh

"Am I wasting my time?" You are if you expect him to step up and be an empathetic partner at this point in his recovery. Your demands that he do so are frustrating for both of you.

We keep telling you that, but you seem to have a hard time accepting it as true. You have every right to expect better from a relationship, but expecting it from HIM--at this point in time--is unrealistic.

Lexie....you all do keep telling me but I can't seem to get it through my head. I just seems so unnatural and abnormal to me and I don't know how to lower my expectations.

OH how I remember this, and the hurt of it. You cannot give your heart because you cannot trust, and that is OK. Two months is a VERY SHORT amount of time. I would be looking for a therapist to help you communicate. Normally I would never say this, but have you thought about going together to therapy since he is sober? Maybe someone to help you both communicate to each other without it blowing up? Just a thought.

Many, many hugs to you. It's not you, it's completely normal not to have trust after only two months. Alcoholics like to minimize the hurt they caused in the past and expect those they did hurt to just forget about it, and the mind does not work in that way.

It sounds like neither one of you is getting their needs met.
The children are the ones caught in the drama, as much as you try to keep them out of it.

I would consider stepping back from this situation as it makes you emotionally volatile and upset, which does impact your children negatively.

Only you can decide what's best, but putting the children in a stable, healthy emotional environment would be what I would do.

He hasn't been sober long, and you can expect a fairly long time of hime getting it together to live sober even if he isn't drinking.
You are deeply damaged living with his alcohoism from what you've shared here.

What about you go to a family counselor who specializes in alcohol abuse and discuss with him or her your options and what the long-term effects this could be having on you and your kids, and make a plan from there.

He's not sober long, and we alcoholics aren't known for patience.
Just cause he wants his family back right now, this minute, doesn't mean it is good for any of you.

We were going to therapy a few months ago but once he relapsed the therapist refused to see us until he was 90 days sober. That was months ago and he kept slipping every couple weeks. He mentioned trying another counselor about 2 months ago when I mentioned divorce but I declined as I thought it was just another thing he wanted to do to keep me there, wasn't for "him". I did bring it up again recently and now he declined saying that he asked me already and I said no, I always get to choose whether we're together or not so he was declining for now! The nerve!

My own suggestion would be that you put a moratorium on "sharing feelings" with each other for now. You both have a lot of resentments to work out, and the best way to do that--at the beginning--is to examine the source of those resentments, including the part you played in them.

Yes, YOU. Both AA and Al-Anon stress that for the alcoholic AND the partner, we have a role in creating the resentments we carry around. You can't do the work for him, and you have to do your own work on yours. Dealing with a resentment doesn't mean excusing the other person's conduct if it was wrong, but it means we see how we have harmed ourselves and others by carrying around past hurts.

I think it would give you a lot of relief if you focus your attention on your own pain rather than looking to him to fix it. The past cannot be undone, whatever he does going forward. You still have to deal with that past because it's already happened.

Maybe it doesn't make sense to you right now--it didn't make sense to most of us--but the results speak for themselves.

Here's a little story I really like. Two Buddhist monks are traveling on foot when they come across a woman trying to cross a fast-moving stream. The elder monk picks her up on his back and carries her across the stream. She thanks him, and the monks go on their way. The younger monk is seething with outrage, since they had taken a vow not to touch a woman. He goes on and on about it, while the older monk listens in silence. Finally, the older monk says to the younger, "I carried her for a minute or two and then put her down on the other side of the stream. It's YOU who have been carrying her for the last 10 miles."

Putting down the burden of resentments can make you feel a hundred pounds lighter.

2 months is such a grain of sand on the beach of recovery, it's so, so, so early to know ANYTHING on EITHER side of this fence. At 6 months, I just started to get into my real emotions, started to really feel the anger, the fury, the grief.

These are the EXACT, almost eerily exact, conversations we had when RAH was sober & not recovering. When he finally did get to the recovery work he told me it was because his shame was so huge about his part in those memories that it would just overwhelm him emotionally during those moments. He couldn't support me in any way because he just wanted to stop drowning in his own feelings. He had to deal with HIS feelings about it all, on his own, in his own time, in his way, when he was ready, because he wanted to... in order to be able to have a conversation like this with me & show me empathy. He had to FIND empathy first because he couldn't understand in any way why him stopping drinking didn't just stop our problems.

I had to work through it all on my side too, on MY own. I had to be able to say & feel whatever I felt that was real without worrying about his reaction to hearing my truths. When I got it all straight in my head I could also separate what was worth sharing & what I just needed to work through & let go. I also found that my initial reaction of clinging to each other to work through it all together wasn't out of love or respect but out of learned patterns & when I REALLY dug into it, I found that I was sometimes using my hurts to lash at him & punish him for what he'd done. MANY times, when I got really honest with myself, I could see how I had been really leveraging those resentments like a hammer. I was OFTEN the more manipulative one in our discussions like this. A lot of the time I set him up with a no-win question.

One of the best things he could have done for both of us was get healthy & call me out on it. Refuse to take the bait. Drop the rope. Treat ME like the addict because I had been acting like one.

And what I came to realize in my recovery that made me ok with stepping back & letting this process unfold on it's own (because it can be long) was that in the end, we'd each be a WHOLE PERSON. I think we should each be bringing a whole, healthy self to the table of our relationship & not expecting the other to heal or complete or fill in the cracks. I want to have a partnership with someone that is ready to move forward together & grow together, not stay stuck in the mud of our combined & separate pasts. Live is too short for mind games & willful denial in my (personal) world.

And if HE doesn't want that too? We will never be happy over the long term no matter how much love we may have for each other right now because we have different goals.

He can't hear you - it doesn't matter how you say it, how you soften your tone, what words you change, where you have the conversation, what triggers it........ he is not in a place to hear you. And every time you try again, you come away more hurt than anything because you cannot force the reaction you want. What's that old definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over & over but expecting different results.

^^ he's playing the victim and still not acting like a MAN. It's like dealing with a toddler at times. I think my 6 year has better communication skills than my XAH. Everything was a game to him.
His expectations of everything being peachy and perfect just bc he's been sober for a whopping two months is not reasonable. Your expectation that he will be a healthy empathetic partner at two months sober is not reasonable. FYI-when my ex got out of rehab (one week!) and claimed to be sober (he was not-I could tell in a heartbeat), I told him that although I wanted our marriage to work (I truly did-not out if obligation-but bc I did love him...or who he used to be)....that he was not coming home anytime soon bc although that may have been what he wabted, him coming home without a long track record of sobriety (and changed behaviors dealing with FOO issues and anger) it would not be safe or smart for me or our two young kids. He snapped and jumped all over me-told me angrily-well, how long is it going to take you to trust me again? I can't wait forever. The response in my head was: well, how long have YOU being lying about and hiding alcohol and acting like an abusive arse when you get drunk? It will take that long.
Alcoholics push and push for what they want-your hubby is still in the Me, Me, Me phase.....from what I hear that is pretty typical for early recovering alcohokics-doesn't mean you have to accept any of it!

What FS said....spot on. That's what I wanted from my marriage as well. For me to put on my big girl panties and him to put on his big boy pants. Unfortunately only one of us chose to grow up. That's okay.

FS's advice is really good!

Dimndaruf......are you wasting your time? Welll, I would say that you are as far as trying to get him on the same page as yourself. As the others have said.....he is not hearing you.....

for you----first of all, I am glad you have decided not to stuff y our feelings. BUT....you don't have to keep sharing them with him (under these circumstances).
He seems to be badgering you (among other things).
What you deserve, in my opinion....is time and space from this current situation.
Space to connect with yourself and your feelings....and to come to clarity about this relationship. You could use the tools of detachment and boundary setting...which you would learn in alanon.
Rule: You do not have to explain or defend you feelings to him. You do not need to get his approval or agreement as to whether your feelings are valid or not. What you feel is valid to YOU! You answer to yourself---not him.

You have suffered the abuse and have scars from it. You cannot ignore that just to make him happy. He will not/cannot give you what you need, right now.
Who knows if he ever will.....even if you do wait the one or two years to find out.
You need a place to express all of y our feelings and desires...without judgement or pressure. I would like to suggest that y ou begin alanon.....and, ask your therapist about joining a support group for abuse survivors.
If you don't have a therapist who is AWAKE.....find a therapist who has worked with abuse victims and ask for a support group.
This is not the time for you to be seeking understanding from the person who has hurt you (at lest, most recently) and who does not have the capacity for empathy or understanding.
I have long felt that alcoholics should live separately from family and loved ones during early recovery. I believe there should be a law......lol.....

We are happy to support you, here, of course.....I hope you stay on this forum
but, in addition, I feel like you need the healing that comes from face-to-face human connection with those who understand, even beyond words.

Dimendaruf, take what you need from this that may be helpful...

dandylion

***If he happens to get mad....he can stay mad until he gets glad.....

I totally get it. I felt the exact same way, and had the exact conversations with AH, which ended in him mad and yelling, and me crying.

But I kept doing it... I kept approaching it in different ways, and at different times of the day, etc. Sometimes he would listen for a while, and there were times I even got, "I'm sorry for all you went through" or "I"m sorry you feel that way." That wasn't good enough for me though. I deserved more than that.

It is infuriating, when you have suffered so much, to feel like it's all just being swept under the rug... like it's all supposed to be okay now just because he's not drinking. It doesn't work like that.
But unfortunately, as was said above, your AH just is not in a place to hear what you're saying and give you what you need at this time.
Mine wasn't, and I don't know that he ever will be. So I just had to stop.

I know how hard it is, when you still want the marriage to work, and you don't want to give up on the future you thought you were going to have... It's heartbreaking.
But, I think it's great advice you've been given above, to take some time and space for yourself... go to Al-anon... do the things you enjoy.

I was given the same advice when my AH first got sober and moved out the first time, but I didn't take it. I knew I should, but it seemed so counter-intuitive. I let him come back after only four days of being gone because I just couldn't do it. How can we save our marriage if we're not seeing each other and not talking about it and trying to "work on it"?

But if I could do it again, I would have taken the advice. I would have taken the time to work on me, and given myself time and space.
It's hard to see things clearly when you've been in the middle of chaos and dysfunction and abuse for so long.

(((((Hugs))))) to you.... It's hard.

So true, I've got to stop MY insanity....

My sponsor said "expectations destroy more relationships than practically anything else" and I've found it's true. Alanon helped me put the focus on dealing with my own problems and that helped a lot in deciding to stay or go.

:tyou Been a while since I have been in this forum. My HP brought me here to this thread. Thank you HP. Thank you Lexicat. You reiterate my sponsor. I am so glad to be in Al-Anon. Tough things still happen but I handle them differently, in a way in which I feel more capable. I am grateful for this, for everyone working the Program, for the Program, for the way it has enhanced and grown my relationship with my HP. <3

Seems like he is getting irritated with you - kind half on the fence about whether to continue the marriage or not. Regardless of his contribution, Limbo is just not a good place to be in a relationship.

I suggest you separate and work on each others individual problems, then regroup at a later date with clarity to see if continuing the marriage is something you both want.

I am sensing from your posts lately, that both of you are being very codependent in that you BOTH want guarantees from each other about the future. You are saying, "I will only give you my heart again if you can guarantee that you won't trample all over it with your emotional abuse and I don't think you can guarantee that, unless you fully understand just how heartbroken I was and am about the situation." He is saying, "I need a guarantee that you are going to stay with me and make this marriage work, because if I don't have that guarantee than this whole recovery thing just seems like too much." When I feel like I need guarantees about the future (which as a raging codependent, is like, ALL OF THE TIME - ask me how many astrology sites I visit on a weekly basis LOL), I am coming out of a place of FEAR and not love. When I feel fear, I need control, and the illusion is that if I know the future, if I have a guarantee, than I am in control. HA! Neither of you will ever control the future. None of us will. The only thing that you can commit to is the here and now. So, maybe you both need to take deep breaths and say to each other, "For today I am fully committed to my own individual recovery. Because that is the only way to be my best self, which in the end, my best self is what is best not just for me, but also for everyone else in my life." Support each other in that and let the pieces fall, as they may and in my belief system, the Universe is going to make sure that the pieces fall in perfect order that makes everyone in this situation evolve in the most wonderful way.

^^ DD-beautiful words! Yep-I used to be the same way-I had to know....must know. Total control! I saw a lot if that in my ex too.

Dim,

I am trying to respond to this gently, so please don't take offense...but, aren't you lowering your standards by contemplating working things out with him? After everything you've been through with this man? Don't you think you honestly deserve better?: an empathetic, considerate, loving individual? Who respects you, who YOU respect?

Hugs friend. Hang in there.

(((Gentle hugs)))

Do you have a sponsor and are you working the steps? These things have made a huge difference in my recovery, and especially in being gently redirected to what I can do something about. As I change, everything changes.

The "slips" on your husband's side... just curious if he's still using occasionally? I've known AA members who continued to drink for quite some time before being ready to find sobriety and full recovery, so no judgment on that. Simply something that I'd realize in this journey being long, and I need to keep to my own recovery no matter what is going on with my husband. Actions matter more than words, mine also. :)

To be honest, I find it much harder to deal with my husband in early sobriety/recovery than when he's still using alcohol. It's much less familiar territory. We're at this point (again) and I'm needing to ramp up my recovery program, call more people, get more support and really work on my self care.

At the same time, my sponsor is showing me ways to be able to take care of me, stand up for myself, yet not by completely ignoring my husband or my marriage, which some days would be so much easier.

Emotional abuse is a lot to deal with. It's okay to take as much time as you need. Clarity will come.

One day at a time. Easy does it.

I re read this thread bc it's such a difficult topic-managing expectations with an alcoholic of recovering alcoholc. I never had the pleasure of seeing my ex recover, maybe I never will. Something Hopeful said really stuck out...that is EXACTLY how my ex treated me after a few years together. The first he was amazing, amazing/was there for me on an intimate level and stood up for me and my morals (and I thought his morals but apparently he has none and I was simply projecting my morals on to him). He was good. When he started sliding into alcoholism there were so many things that changed (for the worse) but the huge one that stuck out was that of I had any complaint (and I mean like the big one-I.e. Please stop (fill in the blank) when you're drunk-it hurts, or it's not ok, or.....the list goes on and on....the response I got was literally, "get over it...God-it's not a big deal-do you know what I deal with everyday?!". Yep-get over it. Not once in ten years together did I ever utter the words to him, get over it....bc that's not reasonable and it's damn abusive (in many of the instances it was used in our marriage). I remember he used to talk all about-all I want is to have time with you. So I set up dates-which he would then bitch about abc sometimes lash out at me leaving me in tears and him yelling, you guessed it, "oh-get over it". I truly think he shut it all out to simply not deal with the shame of hurting me-or he was simply a narcissist that truly didn't care at all-but I don't think that was the case-maybe it was. It sure seems like that is what has been revealed-what he is revealed. Just doesn't care. It doesn't matter now , but I wanted to share. That simple fact of not being validated and told I was stupid and that my deepest feelings and fears no longer mattered to him drove so much of my anger. I think KBoys talked about how her anger would cause her to lash out at things that were ridiculous/and not related to the anger at all. Yep-same here.
Funny thing is, I did get over it-I got over all of his **** and I got out.
To the OP, separation may be best to not damage the good that is left in the marriage and work on issues separately-truly, I wish you the best. I know these are hard times. Trust that God will use this time for good!

Can someone please clarify the "lower your expectations," and "expectations cause more harm than anything else in a relationship" theme that is echoing here? I'm honestly confused about this in my own life. To be fair, the phrase "lower your expectations" triggers me because my ex husband used to say that to me all the time. He'd say I had watched too much TV and that I expected too much from marriage. Come to find out, expecting companionship, respect, intimacy... is really not expecting too much. I was lonely, neglected, and verbally abused, all the while being told that I needed to "lower my expectations." After all, the Big Book says our happiness is proportional to our expectations. So then I felt guilty for expecting too much.

Where is the line between lowering your expectations and accepting unacceptable behavior? It seems to me that the original poster here has experienced, and still is experiencing unacceptable behavior from her husband. Are you all saying that he's not capable of better, so she shouldn't be expecting better (said with no hint of sarcasm--I really want to understand)? That she should leave him if she wants better?

If anyone can shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. I am trying to work this out in my own mind. So much of what was in the original post sounds so familiar to me.

When we talk about having "low expectations" and having problems with expectations, we don't mean that you shouldn't want to be treated well or to insist on it in a relationship. What we mean is that if the person you are with is incapable of meeting those expectations (or even unwilling to do so), you are only hurting your head by expecting something you aren't going to get from that person. It's more a matter of accepting reality than saying it's OK. Sometimes the inability to behave in a certain way is temporary--in early recovery, lots of alcoholics are incapable of being the way they would like to be because they haven't learned how to do it or because the lingering effects of many years of drinking haven't abated yet. Other times you have to assume it's a permanent condition and your choices are to live with it or to move on from the relationship. The point really is that trying to force someone else to change doesn't work.

CTW-I feel ya. I don't recall how many hundreds of times I was told that my expectations were too high-and truth, he was being honest. I desired in my marriage an intimacy with him, (maybe one night a week to just veg in front of the tv and talk about our days? Nope-I was screamed at and verbally abused when I asked for one night where he wasn't drinking by himself the entire night), no drunkenness, honesty, trust and respect-things we did absolutely once have when I was his first love-not the bottle-but those were long gone. Truthfully, him being an alcoholic he could not meet any of those expectations-and I lowered mine to just barely nothing, and accepted abuse, and he still complained. It's been eye opening to realize the only time we were in synch and met each other's expectations was when I was drinking too-I was out there right along with everyone getting drunk and abusing and I think truly, that was what he was looking for in a partner-so I no longer met his expectations either bc I stopped drinking and started rebuilding my life.
I think Lexie explained it perfectly....

I attend Al-anon when my schedule permits....between my 2 children, homework, bath time, finding time to work out (for me), laundry, etc. its hard to commit to it regularly. I don't have a sponsor yet but look forward to getting one.
Withing the past 2 months if he's "slipped" I can't tell.

I'm not offended, I appreciate forwardness and honesty!

I do deserve everything you speak but I don't think its unattainable with him. That's what keeps me trying...well that and the fact that we have 2 children together. He's not a complete jerk (just stubborn) and blinded by alcoholic fog. That doesn't mean that I will stick around forever, just means I'm trying to see if he will change as he's showed great improvement before when he was sober for 1 year. There was a huge difference in him and our relationship, just want that back...

Boy, did you hit the nail right on the head with that one!!

Alcoholics like to minimize the hurt they caused in the past and expect those they did hurt to just forget about it, and the mind does not work in that way.

Hopeful4 - You hit the nail on the head with that comment

Funny thing is, I did get over it-I got over all of his **** and I got out

Me too Forourgirls ...... Me too.... As a matter of fact, those are the very last words he said to me... The .....very ....last....

And guess what? I'm over it! Unbelievable! I think they all follow the same script!