Birds of a feather flock together and stick up for each other
 

Thank GOD through the years of the alcohol abuse my AH has managed to maintain his job (I don't know how) but his friends haven't been so lucky. His closest friends are all drinking buddies (of course) and all of their lives seem to be unraveling one by one. His cousin (his bestie) got a DUI last year and had to find other work, his good friend also got a DUI a few years ago but still hasn't got his license back. His good friend/co-worker got a DUI about 6 months ago and its crumbling his marriage, he and his wife just bought a beautiful home a few years ago and they made a great combined income. Losing his license meant losing his job (needs CDL to work - city job) of about 10 years. The wife is p*ssed with him, doesn't sleep in the same room and barely talks or has sex with him. His other friend/co-worker is going through a divorce and when I ask why my AH says his friend has been complaining for years about their sex life. I am really cool with the wife but I don't want to reach out to her and pry (although I really do, I won't). They had their first child together about 2 years ago and I remember her telling me that her husband still hadn't "adjusted" to having a child. They also make a great combined income and have a beautiful home, they decided to have a child later in life (nothing wrong with that) but now things seem to be going downhill. My AH tells me that his friend is the one pushing for the divorce and that he's the one that's not happy. Funny...that's not the impression I got from the wife when I asked her how the baby was affecting their relationship, I remember her saying "some people still think they can behave the way they did before having a child". I just wonder....could the alcohol be the main factor in their divorce?

What I really would like to know is if my husband sees that the common denominator in our marriage issues along with his friends' marriage issues is alcohol. Or does he really think that "we have issues" and "they have issues". This is what he's been telling our families...our marriage is troubled not just because of alcohol but because of me and my behavior....HA!

Any thoughts???

I don't think this is the answer that you want to hear, but I believe alcoholics stay into deep denial, until they don't. I am jaw droppingly dumbfounded at the number of times my very alcoholic mother will speak of someone else's alcoholism with disdain in her voice. She and my dad have basically isolated themselves from all of their siblings, yet they do not see that the common denominator is themselves. My AM was basically telling me the other day that a close family friend who she recently visited is not portraying her life to be the way it really is in real life. HUH?!?!? Really?!?!? Doesn't it take one to know one?? Honestly, in a detached way, I find alcoholics' denial one of the most fascinating phenomenon I have ever encountered.

Addiction does everything it can to protect itself. That means blame-shifting and denial. To take responsibility for the consequences of our choices means having to deal with the addiction. Dealing with the addiction is like standing naked in a tsunami -- not one stitch to protect oneself from life on life's terms.

I had to learn to spend a lot less time trying to figure out why my addicted loved ones did and said the things they did and a lot more time figuring out why I accepted it.

^^ yes-it is fascinating,,,,scary, and fascinating. It's almost the same as a pathological liar actually believing his lies-even when presented with evidence in front of him. Denial is a very powerful thing. Birds of a feather do indeed flock together. I realized over the years that my ex didn't do anything that didn't involve drinking-and that is the only way he hung out with people-was to get drunk with them, so naturally those are drinking buddies. Of course they will defend him as they have been told lies and distorted truths to further paint himself as the victim and no address his drinking-pretty typical for an alcoholic and his crowd of flying monkeys! I recall when my ex was in rehab how he told me basically everyone he knew and hung out with was an alcoholic, that most of his family was an alcoholic, and that they should all go to rehab ! Funny how that all dried up when I didn't believe his words and instead focused on his actions. Your husband won't see what he doesn't wabt to see. Period. Have you impacted the marriage? I'm sure you have-none of us our blameless-marriages are tough, hard and a ton of work-and those are the good healthy marriages without addiction! All we can do is own our actions. Honey-he is not going to be truthful with anyone, period, abouthis drinking. Don't expect him to be. He will do what alcoholics do-lie, blame, deny and distort....don't bite bc it just gets you back on the crazy train.

Peace to you today !

I can't say this any better!!!!!

Again....couldn't do this any better, except to add that I thought maybe there was 2 separate issues with my ex. Her addictions (multiples) and her pathological lying. But I think they all sort of depend on each other as a protection net for them. I think they actually begin to believe the deceptions they create are real. Because eventually either nobody challenges them or nobody is around them long enough to know what is happening.

^^ yes!! It's a mask they wear-totally. I don't know if my ex believes his lies-it doesn't matter. A lie is a lie!

I so remember the game of lies. They try and twist and turn things. I finally realized the only way to stand a chance was to have a hard trail of proof that you can visibly show them.

And even then they deny it.

Is this your phone number? Yes. Was the phone in your possession on this date? Yes. Ever leave your possession? No. Then can you tell me who this phone number is you called 14 times that day starting at 5:30 in the morning and continuing until 11:30 PM?

I don't know...It wasn't me that made those calls.

Then can you explain why he knows your name and phone number? Because I called him.

Ummmmm he's lying.

Problem solved!!!!!!!

^^ lol. Sounds like a conversation with my ex. Flat out denial even with proof to document his lies! Someone recently shared with me the following: ex husband was caught drinking by an acquaintance when out with his kids-acquaintance took a picture. Ex wife took him to court. Not only did the ex deny drinking (picture proof), he actually denied ever being at the establishment with his kids (receipt showing he purchased three movie tickets on that day at establishment). The lies go so deep and can be so dumbfounding that it makes your head hurt if you try to figure then out-just walk away. Don't expect rational honest behavior from an addict- or his group of enablers!

I found my mate on a dating website with pictures and everything. After protests that he knew NOTHING about how they got there with many tears, I stayed another 10 years.

After getting sober my RAH admitted that he had semi-realized he'd been surrounding himself with people he judged to have bigger, more obvious problems than he did. It made him feel better about himself & validated his feelings that he wasn't "like them", "that bad", etc. Basically, I said, you spent your time with people you thought were total losers because it made you feel better about yourself? Yep. Actually reinforcing his ability to stay in denial. He would do anything to protect this part of himself, ANYTHING.

The lies he told me flat-out, to my face, have always been the hardest part to heal. I can't even express how ridiculously transparent & obvious his lies got to be. "That's right. Santa & a leprechaun strolled right in here & took money out of my wallet. That's what happened. I am SICK of being questioned about every little thing!" Then he'd storm off to drink, because he was SO angry at me & the "way I talk to him". :headbange

Yep. Exactly the same type stuff. Amazing how much they a become alike. This has been where I get the most help. Realizing that we are experiencing, not only isn't unique, but all very similar in so many ways.

FS-I have had the exact same conversations (if you call them that) with my then husband-it's maddening and sickening!

Count me among those who think there is very, very limited value in trying to figure out "why" an addict does anything. Because the answer is pretty much always "because he/she is an addict."

I was raised to believe that knowledge is power, and I wasted a lot of time and energy trying to figure my AH out. Talk about a lesson learned the hard way. Now my message to my children is that it can be helpful to understand why a person might be acting a certain way, but it's not something to agonize over. And when you're dealing with someone who, for whatever reason, isn't rational, there's no point in trying to understand at all.

Most of the time it's somehow, some way, connected to protecting the addiction. It's only incomprehensible to non-alcoholics--which is why you hear so many alcoholics in AA laughing when somebody is recounting some insane thing they did. Because we ALL did insane stuff like that--not the exact same things, necessarily, but we understand the twisted thinking that is behind a lot of it.

It's the same on the codie end, I think. You people are the only ones I could come to and say that I snooped on my AH then spent two hours driving all over the south suburbs past every bar (no small feat in Milwaukeeland!), determined to catch my AH in a lie. Because you are the ones who both understand/relate, and were in a position to call my on my own craziness.

I remember when my RAH was starting recovery (really abstaining, not actually recovering) and he lied to me about something ridiculous. Totally blatantly lied and the truth was completely obvious. He knew he was caught and had nothing to say or hide. I said "Why would you lie about such a silly thing? There was no reason to lie about it." And his answer summed it all up... "I lie just to lie. I don't even know when I'm telling the truth or lying. I lie when I don't even need to. I lie just to lie." And there it was.

My STBXAH was the same way, Amy. When I caught him in one of those lies once, his excuse was that he lied because he felt sorry for himself. It was simultaneously totally nonsensical, and the truest answer he ever gave me.

That's what it really boils down to. I finally figured out that everything out of his mouth translated to, "I'm not ready to quit drinking."
I was much better off once I let go of trying to make sense of every individual crazy thing he said.
And Firesprite, I think my ex was probably the alcoholic that the other alcoholics hung out with to feel better about themselves, lol. Of course he would never hesitate to point a finger at someone else and say, "THAT GUY is an alcoholic, he got a DUI."
And of course I never hesitated to point out other people's codie behavior. "I can't believe his mom bailed him out of jail again." :headbange
We really are two sides of the same coin.

Complete (outward) denial. He may understand it deep down, but if he can't come to the point of admitting it, then he can't come to the point of fully realizing that it's destroying his life as much as their own.

My alcoholic exbf said some of the most confounding things about other people with substance abuse issues. A good friend of his had his relationship fall apart because his girlfriend was an alcoholic. His response to it was how unfortunate it was that she let alcohol get in the way of that, and then assured me (while understanding he had his own problem) that he'd never get that way.

Another friend of his who was an addict was "a loser that was going nowhere and throwing his life away on drugs," and he was explaining this completely drunk at a bar to me one night.

Another friend who had a boyfriend who abused alcohol pushed her one night, and he talked to me about it with concern, hoping it wouldn't escalate to him hitting her eventually (a few months after he pushed me one night).

It's amazing the amount of personal denial they can have at times, and overall denial when they know how obvious their problems are.

It doesn't matter if he recognizes or refuses to recognize it in other situations - he doesn't recognize it in himself. My ex always figured he still had time before he became a full-fledged "alcoholic" and really needed to get help. His was a denial of semantics. But, denial is denial. If it's not recognized within, it's not going to be helped.

This was my thought exactly. Earlier this week my best friend was telling me about reading her husband's text messages when she was angry at him - something I use to do and justify. Earlier today my mom got off the phone without saying "I love you" because she was mad at me - something I use to do and thought I was making a point.

People that make insane and/or poor behavior choices seem to find others with similar behavior patterns. It's really awkward and lonely when you find that you've outgrown old behaviors though and your friends haven't.