Need advice on the amount of Alcohol
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Join Date: Oct 2015
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Need advice on the amount of Alcohol
Hi,
I have a 50 yr old brother that I am trying to help and need some advice / information from someone that has more experience. He is staying with me right now because of the family business we have together.
We have known he was in trouble with the drinking but threats of rehab, not putting up with it are all arguments that have fallen on deaf ears. Last week it all came to a halt when he was so drunk he fell and hit his face and we had to take him to the hospital. After CT scan, and 5 stiches and a 8K medical bill ( he has no insurance) the law was put down that he cannot drink. He has to go for rehab and get help if he cannot stop on his own.
He has been to counseling after two DUIs years ago and says he knows that he drinks to self medicate. He did stop for about 4 years but went back to it and none of us knew he was drinking again.
After the hospital incident I had really hoped he would come to his senses and do anything he could to quit. He has reduced it but he has gone even more underground with hiding the drinking and he is very careful to not drink until everyone goes to bed at night.
I do not drink so I am totally clueless on how much a person consumes to get intoxicated. I can usually spot when he is drinking now but of course he is trying hard to hide it.
Here are a few questions I would love to ask.
I found where he stashes the empty bottles and it looks like he is drinking Vodka 50%, full 375ML bottle / which is a little over 12 ounces every night. Is that a lot of alcohol?
How drunk would that much in one night make you? He is approximately 5'9 and 140 lbs.
I am also guessing he is sipping a little during the day but I honestly cannot detect it so another question would be, can he sip some during the day and I would not be able to tell?
If I had not been monitoring his empty bottle stash I would not have known he was still drinking and I was shocked after the hospital crisis and the bill that he knows I will have to pay would continue.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Kamper
I have a 50 yr old brother that I am trying to help and need some advice / information from someone that has more experience. He is staying with me right now because of the family business we have together.
We have known he was in trouble with the drinking but threats of rehab, not putting up with it are all arguments that have fallen on deaf ears. Last week it all came to a halt when he was so drunk he fell and hit his face and we had to take him to the hospital. After CT scan, and 5 stiches and a 8K medical bill ( he has no insurance) the law was put down that he cannot drink. He has to go for rehab and get help if he cannot stop on his own.
He has been to counseling after two DUIs years ago and says he knows that he drinks to self medicate. He did stop for about 4 years but went back to it and none of us knew he was drinking again.
After the hospital incident I had really hoped he would come to his senses and do anything he could to quit. He has reduced it but he has gone even more underground with hiding the drinking and he is very careful to not drink until everyone goes to bed at night.
I do not drink so I am totally clueless on how much a person consumes to get intoxicated. I can usually spot when he is drinking now but of course he is trying hard to hide it.
Here are a few questions I would love to ask.
I found where he stashes the empty bottles and it looks like he is drinking Vodka 50%, full 375ML bottle / which is a little over 12 ounces every night. Is that a lot of alcohol?
How drunk would that much in one night make you? He is approximately 5'9 and 140 lbs.
I am also guessing he is sipping a little during the day but I honestly cannot detect it so another question would be, can he sip some during the day and I would not be able to tell?
If I had not been monitoring his empty bottle stash I would not have known he was still drinking and I was shocked after the hospital crisis and the bill that he knows I will have to pay would continue.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Kamper
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
That amount won't necessarily make someone appear drunk at all. He probably has a high tolerance.
It is possible he is nipping at booze all day and you won't know. It depends on how physically addicted he is. My brother in law was so bad in the end he woke in the middle of the night and would have to sip on vodka to keep the DT's away.
You only know where one of his stashed of empties are. It is possible he has a lot more.
Something a lot of people don't know is quitting alcohol can kill. He could have a stroke or heart attack. If he is going to quit he should be medically supervised.
It is possible he is nipping at booze all day and you won't know. It depends on how physically addicted he is. My brother in law was so bad in the end he woke in the middle of the night and would have to sip on vodka to keep the DT's away.
You only know where one of his stashed of empties are. It is possible he has a lot more.
Something a lot of people don't know is quitting alcohol can kill. He could have a stroke or heart attack. If he is going to quit he should be medically supervised.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
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It's a waste of time to figure out how much he's drinking and "how drunk" that would make him. Tolerance varies widely. You know he's an alcoholic, you know he's still drinking. The exact amount isn't that important.
But yes, he should have only medically supervised detox. That's true of anyone who is physically dependent, no matter how much they are drinking.
But yes, he should have only medically supervised detox. That's true of anyone who is physically dependent, no matter how much they are drinking.
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Sorry for what brings you here. I sympathize with your situation and the concern you have for your brother. However, it looks like the help you are giving him (a place to stay, paying medical bills) isn't really helping him. Not with his drinking. He know if he falls, you'll catch him. If he can't suffer from the consequences of his drinking, what's to make him stop?
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couple things stood out in your post.....
he's 50 years old, you two are in business together, so why are YOU paying HIS medical bills??? wouldn't that fall under HIS responsibility?
he's an alcoholic, and you two are in business together....that doesn't sound like the wisest of choices for a business partner.
you instituted the NO DRINKING rule and he has violated that and your home by continuing to bring alcohol in.
it's time to play hard ball. he either go DIRECTLY to rehab somewhere, preferably longer than 28 days, and if he refuses, then he can take his vodka and his stuff AND his $8000 hospital bill and go elsewhere. making it EASIER for him isn't working, he will just take every advantage and continue to do as he wishes.
he's 50 years old, you two are in business together, so why are YOU paying HIS medical bills??? wouldn't that fall under HIS responsibility?
he's an alcoholic, and you two are in business together....that doesn't sound like the wisest of choices for a business partner.
you instituted the NO DRINKING rule and he has violated that and your home by continuing to bring alcohol in.
it's time to play hard ball. he either go DIRECTLY to rehab somewhere, preferably longer than 28 days, and if he refuses, then he can take his vodka and his stuff AND his $8000 hospital bill and go elsewhere. making it EASIER for him isn't working, he will just take every advantage and continue to do as he wishes.
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Join Date: Oct 2015
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Originally Posted by happybeingme 
That amount won't necessarily make someone appear drunk at all. He probably has a high tolerance.
It is possible he is nipping at booze all day and you won't know. It depends on how physically addicted he is. My brother in law was so bad in the end he woke in the middle of the night and would have to sip on vodka to keep the DT's away.
You only know where one of his stashed of empties are. It is possible he has a lot more.
Something a lot of people don't know is quitting alcohol can kill. He could have a stroke or heart attack. If he is going to quit he should be medically supervised.
It is possible he is nipping at booze all day and you won't know. It depends on how physically addicted he is. My brother in law was so bad in the end he woke in the middle of the night and would have to sip on vodka to keep the DT's away.
You only know where one of his stashed of empties are. It is possible he has a lot more.
Something a lot of people don't know is quitting alcohol can kill. He could have a stroke or heart attack. If he is going to quit he should be medically supervised.
I am trying to cut him off slowly from his ability to get to alcohol and have been careful not to suddenly pull everything out from under him at one time since I read how they can have major reactions.
He is a high functioning Alcoholic I guess from the descriptions I have read online so in the day he seems perfect and you would never suspect he had a drinking problem.
One of the reasons I had asked is because if he is down to 12.5 ounces a day of Vodka, would this amount be a lot where someone would have dangerous detox symptoms from or is that a manageable amount to go cold turkey?
I can pull money, transportation and be a shadow to him if he goes anywhere so he would not be able to get alcohol at all but I have not used those steps yet, I want to have him try to quit on his own. He has to want to quit but also I have to limit his access.
Hope that makes sense.
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Join Date: Oct 2015
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
couple things stood out in your post.....
he's 50 years old, you two are in business together, so why are YOU paying HIS medical bills??? wouldn't that fall under HIS responsibility?
he's an alcoholic, and you two are in business together....that doesn't sound like the wisest of choices for a business partner.
you instituted the NO DRINKING rule and he has violated that and your home by continuing to bring alcohol in.
it's time to play hard ball. he either go DIRECTLY to rehab somewhere, preferably longer than 28 days, and if he refuses, then he can take his vodka and his stuff AND his $8000 hospital bill and go elsewhere. making it EASIER for him isn't working, he will just take every advantage and continue to do as he wishes.
he's 50 years old, you two are in business together, so why are YOU paying HIS medical bills??? wouldn't that fall under HIS responsibility?
he's an alcoholic, and you two are in business together....that doesn't sound like the wisest of choices for a business partner.
you instituted the NO DRINKING rule and he has violated that and your home by continuing to bring alcohol in.
it's time to play hard ball. he either go DIRECTLY to rehab somewhere, preferably longer than 28 days, and if he refuses, then he can take his vodka and his stuff AND his $8000 hospital bill and go elsewhere. making it EASIER for him isn't working, he will just take every advantage and continue to do as he wishes.
I have researched Rehab centers and found one in Tennessee that is 90 days. I definitely agree with over 28 days.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
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Unless you are a medical doctor, please do not try to "manage" his detox and withdrawal from alcohol. Detox can be incredibly dangerous.
"High-functioning" is a stage of alcoholism, not a type. This thing is progressive. Sometimes that means deterioration over a couple of years, sometimes it means deterioration over forty years. But as long as alcohol is in the mix, there WILL be deterioration.
Unless he wants to quit (and nothing you've said here today indicates that he does want to), all the monitoring and policing in the world will not make a difference. Instead of trying to control him, what can you do on your end, particularly as it pertains from your shared financial interests, to protect yourself from the consequences of his alcoholism?
"High-functioning" is a stage of alcoholism, not a type. This thing is progressive. Sometimes that means deterioration over a couple of years, sometimes it means deterioration over forty years. But as long as alcohol is in the mix, there WILL be deterioration.
Unless he wants to quit (and nothing you've said here today indicates that he does want to), all the monitoring and policing in the world will not make a difference. Instead of trying to control him, what can you do on your end, particularly as it pertains from your shared financial interests, to protect yourself from the consequences of his alcoholism?
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by Kamper
I am trying to cut him off slowly from his ability to get to alcohol and have been careful not to suddenly pull everything out from under him at one time since I read how they can have major reactions.
He is a high functioning Alcoholic I guess from the descriptions I have read online so in the day he seems perfect and you would never suspect he had a drinking problem.
One of the reasons I had asked is because if he is down to 12.5 ounces a day of Vodka, would this amount be a lot where someone would have dangerous detox symptoms from or is that a manageable amount to go cold turkey?
I can pull money, transportation and be a shadow to him if he goes anywhere so he would not be able to get alcohol at all but I have not used those steps yet, I want to have him try to quit on his own. He has to want to quit but also I have to limit his access.
Hope that makes sense.
He is a high functioning Alcoholic I guess from the descriptions I have read online so in the day he seems perfect and you would never suspect he had a drinking problem.
One of the reasons I had asked is because if he is down to 12.5 ounces a day of Vodka, would this amount be a lot where someone would have dangerous detox symptoms from or is that a manageable amount to go cold turkey?
I can pull money, transportation and be a shadow to him if he goes anywhere so he would not be able to get alcohol at all but I have not used those steps yet, I want to have him try to quit on his own. He has to want to quit but also I have to limit his access.
Hope that makes sense.
Does he have a say in this? Has he expressed any desire to quit drinking? If not, I'm not sure how you can say he "has" to go to rehab.
If I were you, I'd be consulting a lawyer on your options in terms of the business. It doesn't sound like your brother is going to be anything but a liability, unless he has some kind of epiphany and decides he wants to get sober.
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
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Millions of people every year attempt to force their alcoholics to quit just like you are. None to my knowledge have ever succeeded. I am a recovering alcoholic myself and honestly I would have sold my wedding ring and walked ten miles to get booze if I needed to.
But go ahead and try. I do advise though that you remove all traces from your home. This includes mouthwash, perfume, all cough and cold meds ( decongestants act like alcohol), cooking wines, certain condiments, lotions, rubbing alcohol, antifreeze. I am sure there are more and yes sometimes people have consumed these things when desperate.
But go ahead and try. I do advise though that you remove all traces from your home. This includes mouthwash, perfume, all cough and cold meds ( decongestants act like alcohol), cooking wines, certain condiments, lotions, rubbing alcohol, antifreeze. I am sure there are more and yes sometimes people have consumed these things when desperate.
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Join Date: Oct 2015
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Thanks so much for all the advice, it really helps. This is exactly what I need, experience from those who have been through it.
I am trying to handle this rationally and not in anger. The comment was asking if he wants to quit.
I know he wishes he did not drink. He has never came up and said I am sorry for all the pain I have caused with my drinking over the years.
He does agree that he cannot drink, he does not defend it, he just says he will.
He will go to Rehab, reluctantly though and I think the reluctance is he’s worried he cannot drink.
He now has no other option because everything is about to be pulled from him.
I am a big believer in the fact HE is the only person that can quit, I cannot quit for him but I want to equip him with all the tools to help him quit. The scary part is so many say they have to hit rock bottom and he has been shielded from that here but even that safety net is about to be pulled if we find out his health is in danger.
From what I am hearing, trying to control his access to alcohol is not going to work, Rehab is really the only solution or let him hit bottom until he makes the decision to quit.
I am trying to handle this rationally and not in anger. The comment was asking if he wants to quit.
I know he wishes he did not drink. He has never came up and said I am sorry for all the pain I have caused with my drinking over the years.
He does agree that he cannot drink, he does not defend it, he just says he will.
He will go to Rehab, reluctantly though and I think the reluctance is he’s worried he cannot drink.
He now has no other option because everything is about to be pulled from him.
I am a big believer in the fact HE is the only person that can quit, I cannot quit for him but I want to equip him with all the tools to help him quit. The scary part is so many say they have to hit rock bottom and he has been shielded from that here but even that safety net is about to be pulled if we find out his health is in danger.
From what I am hearing, trying to control his access to alcohol is not going to work, Rehab is really the only solution or let him hit bottom until he makes the decision to quit.
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Even rehab won't fix him if he really doesn't want to stop. Rock bottom is a mental state. It doesn't have to follow a catastrophe. It is merely a point where the alcoholic says to themself. Enough, I just can't do this anymore. And it must be total abstinence forever. There is no cure for addiction. There will never be a point where he can safely have one or two.
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Location: Chicago
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Just be careful with your expectations, my friend. No one can ever predict what someone else's "rock bottom" really is, and what healthy folks might consider "no other options" an addict might not.
Rehab is not a solution -- it's a tool, and he must choose to utilize that tool. You can give someone all the hammers, nails, and wood they need, but it won't make them build a house.
The one thing you can control here is you. Take care of yourself through this -- sometimes we don't have any idea how bad things can really get when an addict's access to alcohol and to the comfort of drinking without consequences is threatened.
Rehab is not a solution -- it's a tool, and he must choose to utilize that tool. You can give someone all the hammers, nails, and wood they need, but it won't make them build a house.
The one thing you can control here is you. Take care of yourself through this -- sometimes we don't have any idea how bad things can really get when an addict's access to alcohol and to the comfort of drinking without consequences is threatened.
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I'm sorry for what brings you here, Kamper, but it's good you're reaching out for support.
It was a completely futile attempt on my part to try to control AXH's access to alcohol. There really was no way I could have cut off access completely. He'd stop to pick up bottles on his way home from work, on his lunch break, on his way to work. He'd go to lunch or dinner with a co-worker and manage have a few then. If he didn't think he could get to the liquor store, he'd settle for other stuff (cold medicine, mouth wash....)
And the thing about stashes is they can be anywhere and aren't always logical places. Just when I thought I'd found all of AXH's, I'd find more hidden in another area of the house. (I'd haul out the Christmas decorations, or move a storage box, get a step stool out to get to area above the cupboards or fridge and find more bottles.) Some of his more creative hiding places were the BBQ grill in winter, behind stuff in our infant son's room, behind the cleaning supplies under the kitchen sink, and in the garbage can between the liner and can. My 'favorite' was in his fishing waders.
So even when I knew he hadn't been able to make it to the store in a while, there was no way I could be certain he didn't have a new hiding place.
The book "Under the Influence" by Milam and Ketcham helped me get a clearer picture when it came to questions about his tolerance and the progression of his drinking.
Originally Posted by Kamper
From what I am hearing, trying to control his access to alcohol is not going to work
And the thing about stashes is they can be anywhere and aren't always logical places. Just when I thought I'd found all of AXH's, I'd find more hidden in another area of the house. (I'd haul out the Christmas decorations, or move a storage box, get a step stool out to get to area above the cupboards or fridge and find more bottles.) Some of his more creative hiding places were the BBQ grill in winter, behind stuff in our infant son's room, behind the cleaning supplies under the kitchen sink, and in the garbage can between the liner and can. My 'favorite' was in his fishing waders.
So even when I knew he hadn't been able to make it to the store in a while, there was no way I could be certain he didn't have a new hiding place.
The book "Under the Influence" by Milam and Ketcham helped me get a clearer picture when it came to questions about his tolerance and the progression of his drinking.
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I cannot thank you all enough for such great advice and sharing, it is more helpful than you could ever imagine. I have been sitting here reading all the posts and advice again.
I am going to get him into the doctor and see what we find out medically and then take the next step.
After the comments on hiding places, I will be searching his office. Our company is small, we work from home so there are not too many places. I will check litter boxes and trash cans :-)
.
I am going to get him into the doctor and see what we find out medically and then take the next step.
After the comments on hiding places, I will be searching his office. Our company is small, we work from home so there are not too many places. I will check litter boxes and trash cans :-)
.
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Sending hugs, Kamper. I know in my case, the point of telling where I found stashes of AXH's bottles was not to give you ideas of where to look next. I wanted to illustrate that the variety of places where alcoholics will hide their bottles, and how completely absurd those locations can be, makes it really impractical to look for them all, and when finding them to think, "*Now* I've found them all." Because once you've found one, they'll have come up with a dozen more unlikely places to hide stuff. (I mean, really, what person, who's not in the throes of an addiction, would want to hide something they plan to eat or drink in a litter box? It's not someplace I would have thought to look.)
"Three C's"
You Didn't Cause It.
You Can't Control It.
You Can't Cure It.
It took me a while to understand that my searches for AXH's bottles were more attempts to try to control the situation. And that I was making myself completely bonkers in trying to find ALL of his hiding spots -- because it. never.ended.
"Three C's"
You Didn't Cause It.
You Can't Control It.
You Can't Cure It.
It took me a while to understand that my searches for AXH's bottles were more attempts to try to control the situation. And that I was making myself completely bonkers in trying to find ALL of his hiding spots -- because it. never.ended.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Yup, there will always be places you'd never think to look.
It's an exercise in futility and will not stop him from drinking.
About the only way to be SURE someone doesn't drink is likely to land you in jail for criminal restraint.
It's an exercise in futility and will not stop him from drinking.
About the only way to be SURE someone doesn't drink is likely to land you in jail for criminal restraint.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Kamper, the stress this can take on you is huge. I am really glad you are here.
The sad reality is, some people don't have a bottom, they drink...forever. There have been several people mention having loved ones who have had liver transplants...then started drinking again. It's pretty amazing.
If he goes to rehab, I encourage him to look for a dual diagnosis treatment center. If he is self medicating for some other issue, a dual diagnosis center can treat both issues, not just the alcohol.
I hope you keep coming back, there is great support here at SR.
My X usto bury bottles in the ground in our backyard. He would also hide them in the toolboxes in the garage, his trunk, and of course, the rafters of the garage. Sigh....
The sad reality is, some people don't have a bottom, they drink...forever. There have been several people mention having loved ones who have had liver transplants...then started drinking again. It's pretty amazing.
If he goes to rehab, I encourage him to look for a dual diagnosis treatment center. If he is self medicating for some other issue, a dual diagnosis center can treat both issues, not just the alcohol.
I hope you keep coming back, there is great support here at SR.
My X usto bury bottles in the ground in our backyard. He would also hide them in the toolboxes in the garage, his trunk, and of course, the rafters of the garage. Sigh....
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