Words of Advice for ACOA at Thanksgiving?
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Words of Advice for ACOA at Thanksgiving?
Hello all. So if you don't know, my husband, who in his mind has stopped drinking and has his life together now is leaving me this Saturday. We told our kids a couple of weeks ago and my son is not speaking to me. As I agree, some of you have said, probably because in his mind, if I had just been nicer, his dad would've stayed. My son definitely does not understand anything about alcoholism or how it affected me or the family. All he knows is that I was a raging lunatic and that must be why dads moving out. Also, I found out my husband had asked my son, while he was in high school and caught his father drinking, to lie to me about it because I would "get mad." My son has always protected his weak father from me, the apparent big bad wolf. Trust me, I completely see my side in this and if i could take back how I reacted to everything i would in a second. I am not proud of the way i acted for years.
I did as you all suggested and have been letting the dust settle with my son. I haven't reached out except to get thanksgiving squared away with them so i could get all the plane tickets settled.
My kids will be having thanksgiving with my husband at his mothers home the night before thanksgiving (she has always had it wednesday night) and then they leave the next day to have thanksgiving with me and my brother and his family.
Part of me is a little annoyed that he gets them at all, but I have to stay in the place that he is their father and the healthiest thing for them is to have a good relationship with them. my daughter hasn't spoken to him for months. She is going to my inlaws because my son wants her there.
When I see them, it will be the first time I am going to see them since all of this went down. I am sure they both see my husband's alcoholism as something that didn't have to do with anyone but him. My daughter gets it to an extent. I've asked her if she wants any literature (stuff I picked up in alanon) or to go to a meeting, but she said no it doesn't have anything to do with her.
My kids saw my husband as the nice, sweet guy who just had no backbone and did what everyone asked of him. They didn't see what I saw. The guy that took no responsibility for anything or anyone and lied at every possible turn he could. The person that wouldn't touch me, look at me or communicate with me. They didn't see that. They (just my son actually) thought he didn't talk to me because I was mean.
I want to be able to explain to them that addiction is a disease, a selfish disease. And the addiction will cause the addict to lie, cheat, manipulate and do whatever it is they need to do to get the next drink. But I don't want to blame my husband. I don't want it to seem like me vs. him. I just want to give them some insight into the disease and how it manifested in our family.
I've read the different roles people play in an alcoholic family. And my daughter is the overachiever, perfectionist and my son is the clown and i was the martyr. But I also don't want them to feel that they are who they are because of his alcoholism. Maybe my son just is a funny kid and my daughter is just a real overachiever. I know plenty of kids in families like this where there is no addiction issue.
In writing this I know I see my codependency in trying to fix and control this situation. Maybe that is a part of it. Maybe part of it is I don't want my son to blame me as much as he does. But I do want my kids to understand this disease and how it affected the family and my husband will never go there. And there it is again, me being the one to try and save things.
Oh man, where is the line between letting them be on their journey, learn their own lessons, make their own minds up, learn on their own and being a mother who just wants them to understand and be educated and have the knowledge to THEN make the decisions on their own.
So...I see them thanksgiving. Do i say nothing? Do i tell them about alcoholism? Do i tell them about how i feel? suggestions??
I did as you all suggested and have been letting the dust settle with my son. I haven't reached out except to get thanksgiving squared away with them so i could get all the plane tickets settled.
My kids will be having thanksgiving with my husband at his mothers home the night before thanksgiving (she has always had it wednesday night) and then they leave the next day to have thanksgiving with me and my brother and his family.
Part of me is a little annoyed that he gets them at all, but I have to stay in the place that he is their father and the healthiest thing for them is to have a good relationship with them. my daughter hasn't spoken to him for months. She is going to my inlaws because my son wants her there.
When I see them, it will be the first time I am going to see them since all of this went down. I am sure they both see my husband's alcoholism as something that didn't have to do with anyone but him. My daughter gets it to an extent. I've asked her if she wants any literature (stuff I picked up in alanon) or to go to a meeting, but she said no it doesn't have anything to do with her.
My kids saw my husband as the nice, sweet guy who just had no backbone and did what everyone asked of him. They didn't see what I saw. The guy that took no responsibility for anything or anyone and lied at every possible turn he could. The person that wouldn't touch me, look at me or communicate with me. They didn't see that. They (just my son actually) thought he didn't talk to me because I was mean.
I want to be able to explain to them that addiction is a disease, a selfish disease. And the addiction will cause the addict to lie, cheat, manipulate and do whatever it is they need to do to get the next drink. But I don't want to blame my husband. I don't want it to seem like me vs. him. I just want to give them some insight into the disease and how it manifested in our family.
I've read the different roles people play in an alcoholic family. And my daughter is the overachiever, perfectionist and my son is the clown and i was the martyr. But I also don't want them to feel that they are who they are because of his alcoholism. Maybe my son just is a funny kid and my daughter is just a real overachiever. I know plenty of kids in families like this where there is no addiction issue.
In writing this I know I see my codependency in trying to fix and control this situation. Maybe that is a part of it. Maybe part of it is I don't want my son to blame me as much as he does. But I do want my kids to understand this disease and how it affected the family and my husband will never go there. And there it is again, me being the one to try and save things.
Oh man, where is the line between letting them be on their journey, learn their own lessons, make their own minds up, learn on their own and being a mother who just wants them to understand and be educated and have the knowledge to THEN make the decisions on their own.
So...I see them thanksgiving. Do i say nothing? Do i tell them about alcoholism? Do i tell them about how i feel? suggestions??
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You are for sure trying to control the situation, and their perception of the situation.
There is a lot of presumption here, about what they perceived and what they think and why they are doing things the way they are.
One day they may ask you what it was like for you but until they do that, you cannot force an understanding on them that they are neither ready for or interested in. The energy you are expending worrying over their thoughts and behaviors is better spent learning to accept yourself and the choices you made so that you are not dependent upon other people -- in this case, your kids -- to validate your experiences.
Focus on having a relationship with them instead of a point of view. Ask them how school is going. They have full lives outside of what is happening to their parents.
Neither you nor they will likely understand how family roles have affected their ability to have healthy relationships for awhile, and worrying about it or trying to control won't change a thing.
I was one of your kids. No one could fix things for me, or tell me what I wasn't ready to hear. Everyone in my family was so concerned about what others thought -- both within the family and without -- that nobody spent any time or energy having actual relationships with other.
Try to let go, and focus on you being enough for you. Not easy. You have been through a lot. But your kids cannot fix it for you, and it is not fair of you to expect that of them. Try and have a nice family holiday and nurture your relationships with your brother and his family as well.
There is a lot of presumption here, about what they perceived and what they think and why they are doing things the way they are.
One day they may ask you what it was like for you but until they do that, you cannot force an understanding on them that they are neither ready for or interested in. The energy you are expending worrying over their thoughts and behaviors is better spent learning to accept yourself and the choices you made so that you are not dependent upon other people -- in this case, your kids -- to validate your experiences.
Focus on having a relationship with them instead of a point of view. Ask them how school is going. They have full lives outside of what is happening to their parents.
Neither you nor they will likely understand how family roles have affected their ability to have healthy relationships for awhile, and worrying about it or trying to control won't change a thing.
I was one of your kids. No one could fix things for me, or tell me what I wasn't ready to hear. Everyone in my family was so concerned about what others thought -- both within the family and without -- that nobody spent any time or energy having actual relationships with other.
Try to let go, and focus on you being enough for you. Not easy. You have been through a lot. But your kids cannot fix it for you, and it is not fair of you to expect that of them. Try and have a nice family holiday and nurture your relationships with your brother and his family as well.
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 222
SparkleKitty, I see what you mean and I will try and do as you suggested. This whole scenario is so tough. and sucky. Thanks for the words of wisdom though. I needed that. Don't like it, but I know I have so much work still to do on myself and this is proof of that.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
SparkleKitty nailed it with her response.
You wrote:
I want to be able to explain to them that addiction is a disease, a selfish disease. And the addiction will cause the addict to lie, cheat, manipulate and do whatever it is they need to do to get the next drink. But I don't want to blame my husband. I don't want it to seem like me vs. him. I just want to give them some insight into the disease and how it manifested in our family.
This IS "me vs. him". This is you wanting vindication for having lived with all the bad things HE did. This is you wanting to frame how your children think about your marriage in your own favor.
This is NOT having an independent relationship with your son or your daughter in which you and each child reach out to each other and understand and value each other.
This IS you pushing your perspective of why you and your husband each behaved the way you did, and devaluing your husband in the process. It is insisting that your children see your past marriage through YOUR eyes, not their's or your husband's. This is seeing your children's loyalty as a prize that you deserve for having put up with your husband, and a prize that he deserves to lose.
Let it go. Imagine that you were just meeting your daughter and your son for the first time, and think about what you'd want to learn about them and experience with them as if it were the beginning of what is to become a rewarding, sharing, close friendship. That is what you want in your future, not witnesses to the devastation of your marriage who will understand and testify in your behalf.
This may seem very harsh, but it truly isn't. From my experience, now over 3 years out of my 20 year marriage to my then alcoholic, very abusive husband, what truly matters to me is what I have learned about myself. Who did what wrong when and why isn't important anymore; what has staying power is understanding my role in the marriage's failure, understanding how I behaved and why. And this is important ONLY because it gives me self-knowledge and it gives me the power to change my behavior and be the person I want to be and can be.
It took me a couple of years of deep instrospection to begin to get to this point. The stages of recovery from a damaged marriage, and a long marriage to an alcoholic are complex and significant. I went through fear, intensive fear of how my husband might hurt me after I left - both that he might chase me and that he might hurt me financially so much that at 62, I couldn't survive retirement.
I went through grief and loss, rage and anger (which are different), peace at being alone and not harassed, blame and bitterness, regret and longing, guilt and shame at my own past behavior, and increasing stability in my own quiet life on my own.
In one of our last arguments, my then alcoholic husband looked at me with insightful eyes and said "You have to look at what you are doing in this marriage." And he was right.
It has taken me now three years to fully understand that. Our behavior, our bad and destructive behavior, was like the shoreline and the sea. Where he ended, I began; where he began, I ended. We were joined at the hip in our dysfunction. That it ended up, at the final analysis, that he was an alcoholic and abuser, did not ameliorate the fact that my behavior was dysfunctional and contributed greatly to the devastation that we lived by the end. It does not excuse the cruelty of his alcholism and his abuse. He owns what he did. But, I own what I did, and it took me a long time to be secure enough to begin to really understand where my behavior went off the rails.
When I did that introspective work, with a wonderful psychiatrist, I began to be freed of behavior patterns that had existed for me since my childhood in an alcoholic abusive family. I began to understand what I had done and why, and that gave me the freedom to choose how I wanted to act.
In the end, this multiple act play of life was not about my husband and how he failed; it is about me. He was a bit player on my stage, and I am the star in my own life's tale, and I am accountable for my own behavior.
So, as for your kids, if it were me, the most I would say to them about your marriage and your husband is that it was a tragic, dysfunctional, and painful marriage that you are trying to understand your role in. That, over time, you hope to understand how you want to change to be a happier, more peaceful person.
That they don't need to take sides because they are entitled to have a mother and a father and to be in relationship to each of them without comment or coercion from the other parent.
That loving each parent in their own way is their right, and does not deny the validity and strength of their love for the other parent.
That you will be going down the path of understanding what happened TO YOU in this marriage, and learning and deciding how you now want to behave as an individual.
That you love them both and always will.
That would be my suggestion. Said with great compassion. Take what you want, and leave the rest.
ShootingStar1
You wrote:
I want to be able to explain to them that addiction is a disease, a selfish disease. And the addiction will cause the addict to lie, cheat, manipulate and do whatever it is they need to do to get the next drink. But I don't want to blame my husband. I don't want it to seem like me vs. him. I just want to give them some insight into the disease and how it manifested in our family.
This IS "me vs. him". This is you wanting vindication for having lived with all the bad things HE did. This is you wanting to frame how your children think about your marriage in your own favor.
This is NOT having an independent relationship with your son or your daughter in which you and each child reach out to each other and understand and value each other.
This IS you pushing your perspective of why you and your husband each behaved the way you did, and devaluing your husband in the process. It is insisting that your children see your past marriage through YOUR eyes, not their's or your husband's. This is seeing your children's loyalty as a prize that you deserve for having put up with your husband, and a prize that he deserves to lose.
Let it go. Imagine that you were just meeting your daughter and your son for the first time, and think about what you'd want to learn about them and experience with them as if it were the beginning of what is to become a rewarding, sharing, close friendship. That is what you want in your future, not witnesses to the devastation of your marriage who will understand and testify in your behalf.
This may seem very harsh, but it truly isn't. From my experience, now over 3 years out of my 20 year marriage to my then alcoholic, very abusive husband, what truly matters to me is what I have learned about myself. Who did what wrong when and why isn't important anymore; what has staying power is understanding my role in the marriage's failure, understanding how I behaved and why. And this is important ONLY because it gives me self-knowledge and it gives me the power to change my behavior and be the person I want to be and can be.
It took me a couple of years of deep instrospection to begin to get to this point. The stages of recovery from a damaged marriage, and a long marriage to an alcoholic are complex and significant. I went through fear, intensive fear of how my husband might hurt me after I left - both that he might chase me and that he might hurt me financially so much that at 62, I couldn't survive retirement.
I went through grief and loss, rage and anger (which are different), peace at being alone and not harassed, blame and bitterness, regret and longing, guilt and shame at my own past behavior, and increasing stability in my own quiet life on my own.
In one of our last arguments, my then alcoholic husband looked at me with insightful eyes and said "You have to look at what you are doing in this marriage." And he was right.
It has taken me now three years to fully understand that. Our behavior, our bad and destructive behavior, was like the shoreline and the sea. Where he ended, I began; where he began, I ended. We were joined at the hip in our dysfunction. That it ended up, at the final analysis, that he was an alcoholic and abuser, did not ameliorate the fact that my behavior was dysfunctional and contributed greatly to the devastation that we lived by the end. It does not excuse the cruelty of his alcholism and his abuse. He owns what he did. But, I own what I did, and it took me a long time to be secure enough to begin to really understand where my behavior went off the rails.
When I did that introspective work, with a wonderful psychiatrist, I began to be freed of behavior patterns that had existed for me since my childhood in an alcoholic abusive family. I began to understand what I had done and why, and that gave me the freedom to choose how I wanted to act.
In the end, this multiple act play of life was not about my husband and how he failed; it is about me. He was a bit player on my stage, and I am the star in my own life's tale, and I am accountable for my own behavior.
So, as for your kids, if it were me, the most I would say to them about your marriage and your husband is that it was a tragic, dysfunctional, and painful marriage that you are trying to understand your role in. That, over time, you hope to understand how you want to change to be a happier, more peaceful person.
That they don't need to take sides because they are entitled to have a mother and a father and to be in relationship to each of them without comment or coercion from the other parent.
That loving each parent in their own way is their right, and does not deny the validity and strength of their love for the other parent.
That you will be going down the path of understanding what happened TO YOU in this marriage, and learning and deciding how you now want to behave as an individual.
That you love them both and always will.
That would be my suggestion. Said with great compassion. Take what you want, and leave the rest.
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Total Ditto from me.
Time & space is what you need Amy, no matter what you do all of the holidays are going to be a MESS this year with things the way they are between all of you right now. It might help to accept it from that perspective & help keep your expectations in check?
I know it's so tempting to share all the insights you are making in YOUR recovery, all the connections you hadn't seen before. In reality no one wants our recoveries shoved down their throats, no matter how much we think we're just trying to "help"; we aren't.
Your son is going to continue to do his part in the dance with your husband until he's ready to stop. He is INVESTED in this role to some extent & hasn't seen any real downside to it so far. Your words are falling on deaf ears because he can't draw a correlation between your words & his experiences, they don't match.
Time & distance will help AH's actions show up separately from Yours..... more will definitely be revealed, no doubt. If I remember right, his behaviors haven't changed much at all despite his sobriety - without you as an intermediary your son will probably start to see more & more of this behavior. And now he won't have you to shift the blame to, right?
For Thanksgiving? I wouldn't talk about it AT ALL except to answer any direct questions they ask you. I'd talk about any & every other possible thing.
Time & space is what you need Amy, no matter what you do all of the holidays are going to be a MESS this year with things the way they are between all of you right now. It might help to accept it from that perspective & help keep your expectations in check?
I know it's so tempting to share all the insights you are making in YOUR recovery, all the connections you hadn't seen before. In reality no one wants our recoveries shoved down their throats, no matter how much we think we're just trying to "help"; we aren't.
Your son is going to continue to do his part in the dance with your husband until he's ready to stop. He is INVESTED in this role to some extent & hasn't seen any real downside to it so far. Your words are falling on deaf ears because he can't draw a correlation between your words & his experiences, they don't match.
Time & distance will help AH's actions show up separately from Yours..... more will definitely be revealed, no doubt. If I remember right, his behaviors haven't changed much at all despite his sobriety - without you as an intermediary your son will probably start to see more & more of this behavior. And now he won't have you to shift the blame to, right?
For Thanksgiving? I wouldn't talk about it AT ALL except to answer any direct questions they ask you. I'd talk about any & every other possible thing.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
One last thing -
.... yet. I see a potential ticking time bomb here with your overachiever. 
She hasn't figured out how it affects her.... yet...... but that does not mean that she is Unaffected. Just something to be aware of, IMO.
I've asked her if she wants any literature (stuff I picked up in alanon) or to go to a meeting, but she said no it doesn't have anything to do with her.
She hasn't figured out how it affects her.... yet...... but that does not mean that she is Unaffected. Just something to be aware of, IMO.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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FindingAmy.......right now, the kids do NOT want to deal with it.....they are not ready. they are telling you that in so many ways.
If you want to mess up Thanksgiving.....go ahead and start chatting about the divorce.....
I think this is a good opportunity to start a new behavior.....just keeping it zipped. Just like for recovering alcoholics.....your behavior (not your words) will say volumes to others---and, trust me...they WILL notice! When one person in the family changes....it affects all the others....like ripples in a pond after you toss in a rock.
This will happen, gradually, over time....the changes won't be instant.
You will need to learn patience.....lots of it.....and faith.....lots of it......
If you want Thanksgiving to go well......do l ike was already suggested....let them see the pleasure in your face at just being with them. If you just savor your time with them and avoid talking about the divorce...on this day of truce from the fighting.....they will notice! they won't even mention it, probably, but they will note it mentally. It will be a beginning of a change......
It is like don't open the oven while the soufflé is rising!!!!!!
dandylion
If you want to mess up Thanksgiving.....go ahead and start chatting about the divorce.....
I think this is a good opportunity to start a new behavior.....just keeping it zipped. Just like for recovering alcoholics.....your behavior (not your words) will say volumes to others---and, trust me...they WILL notice! When one person in the family changes....it affects all the others....like ripples in a pond after you toss in a rock.
This will happen, gradually, over time....the changes won't be instant.
You will need to learn patience.....lots of it.....and faith.....lots of it......
If you want Thanksgiving to go well......do l ike was already suggested....let them see the pleasure in your face at just being with them. If you just savor your time with them and avoid talking about the divorce...on this day of truce from the fighting.....they will notice! they won't even mention it, probably, but they will note it mentally. It will be a beginning of a change......
It is like don't open the oven while the soufflé is rising!!!!!!
dandylion
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 222
wow, am i ever glad i posted that question!!! i think i will definitely be printing these and taking them with me and reading them in a private place when i think i'm about to go in a direction that would not do anybody any good. this is quite the tough pill to swallow, but so necessary. i have soooooo much work to do. for me. for my relationships with my kids and everyone else. wow, ive got alot to do. thanks. that gave me a headache though 
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
These folks here who grew up with alcoholism put it much better than I possibly could, bless them!
One other suggestion. Remember the MEANING of the holiday. It is to be thankful. It is to cultivate an attitude of gratitude. You are getting the opportunity to be with your kids--many do not. They sound like awesome kids--revel in it. Create some new traditions. Serve some special treat you've never made before.
Don't try to compare it to previous holidays, or to other people's holidays. Make it your own. If you hang loose and keep an open mind, and allow your kids to feel whatever they feel right now (and allow yourself the same privilege), and keep your expectations of everyone (including yourself) to a minimum, this can be a nice beginning in your new life and in your relationships with your kids.
One other suggestion. Remember the MEANING of the holiday. It is to be thankful. It is to cultivate an attitude of gratitude. You are getting the opportunity to be with your kids--many do not. They sound like awesome kids--revel in it. Create some new traditions. Serve some special treat you've never made before.
Don't try to compare it to previous holidays, or to other people's holidays. Make it your own. If you hang loose and keep an open mind, and allow your kids to feel whatever they feel right now (and allow yourself the same privilege), and keep your expectations of everyone (including yourself) to a minimum, this can be a nice beginning in your new life and in your relationships with your kids.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
holiday get-togethers are NOT the time to bring up ISSUES....especially not so soon after the recent changes in the home. this is not the time to whip out the charts and graphs and timelines, this is the time to let that all be and just enjoy the festivities.
remember you are not in competition with the other parent. and they aren't little kids either. it's not that your AH "gets" them for the day, they are choosing to spend the day with him. and then spend the next with your side of the family.
i think it's time to bake a pie!!!
remember you are not in competition with the other parent. and they aren't little kids either. it's not that your AH "gets" them for the day, they are choosing to spend the day with him. and then spend the next with your side of the family.
i think it's time to bake a pie!!!
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