Validate My Feelings
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,388
Perhaps that sponsor confuses compassion with a pity party. Alcoholics stop drinking when they make a decision to stop. Period. They hit the bottom and they choose to stop. The difference between alcoholism/addiction and cancer (or any other disease, including diabetes) is that no one goes to cancer store to buy more cancer. And diabetics know very well what is going to happen if they go high (or low) on sugar.
Alcoholism is way more insidious. It progresses slowly and there is always denial involved. Personally, I would not compare it to any disease because it is unique in that the person chooses the disease over his/her own health, family, well-being, life in general.
I think I would have some really hard time with your sponsor. I really cannot find much compassion for alcoholics considering all the damage they cause. And for recovering alcoholics committed to their recovery, I have nothing but respect and admiration.
Alcoholism is way more insidious. It progresses slowly and there is always denial involved. Personally, I would not compare it to any disease because it is unique in that the person chooses the disease over his/her own health, family, well-being, life in general.
I think I would have some really hard time with your sponsor. I really cannot find much compassion for alcoholics considering all the damage they cause. And for recovering alcoholics committed to their recovery, I have nothing but respect and admiration.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
Compassion? Isn't that exactly what you offered him when he relapsed for the umpteenth time? Exactly what more are you supposed to do?
Honestly when people compare alcoholism to cancer or diabetes it makes me cringe. There might be actions within treatment where there could be some comparison, perhaps noncompliance in treatment would be similar, but that's about it. My husband is a diabetic. He eats whatever he wants whenever he wants he is insulin dependent. He takes a bolus before he eats. His A1C is as normal as a non-diabetic. My father is a type 2. He has to be more careful so he DOESN"T become insulin dependent, but he will eat carbs here and there that he shouldn't, and he also has a normal range A1C.
I also have a mother that has cancer. If only she could choose a path of recovery that would heal her. Not all cancers are terminal Unfortunately hers is incurable. Alcoholism doesn't have to be for anyone unless they CHOOSE it to be.
There is no "having a drink here and there" for an alcoholic unlike a diabetic. A commitment to recovery for life and they are free. Its a big difference.
Your sponsor pissed me off. LOL. I think you are doing a pretty damn great job dealing with this. It sounds like she is associated with a special snowflake alcoholic, and is projecting her own issues on you. In early recovery this might be a slip, husband has had several relapses. He isn't committed I totally get that you ARE compassionate about that, and detached.
Maybe you should be your sponsor's sponsor.
Honestly when people compare alcoholism to cancer or diabetes it makes me cringe. There might be actions within treatment where there could be some comparison, perhaps noncompliance in treatment would be similar, but that's about it. My husband is a diabetic. He eats whatever he wants whenever he wants he is insulin dependent. He takes a bolus before he eats. His A1C is as normal as a non-diabetic. My father is a type 2. He has to be more careful so he DOESN"T become insulin dependent, but he will eat carbs here and there that he shouldn't, and he also has a normal range A1C.
I also have a mother that has cancer. If only she could choose a path of recovery that would heal her. Not all cancers are terminal Unfortunately hers is incurable. Alcoholism doesn't have to be for anyone unless they CHOOSE it to be.
There is no "having a drink here and there" for an alcoholic unlike a diabetic. A commitment to recovery for life and they are free. Its a big difference.
Your sponsor pissed me off. LOL. I think you are doing a pretty damn great job dealing with this. It sounds like she is associated with a special snowflake alcoholic, and is projecting her own issues on you. In early recovery this might be a slip, husband has had several relapses. He isn't committed I totally get that you ARE compassionate about that, and detached.
Maybe you should be your sponsor's sponsor.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,615
I really like what jj had to say about disease/choice analogies. I see some fluidity to that too. My mom quit smoking, but started again. Is that disease or choice? She died from drugs, not sure how much of that was choice.
As an alcoholic myself what I experienced is that the choice to drive to the store, choice to buy wine, choice to open and drink it, choice to keep going.... Those were all on autopilot really. The relapse I had three years ago was mental and I can't tell you the moment it happened, just the general feeling of when, and it was weeks before I basically went into zombie mode and made the string of "choices" to get drunk. It really is a weird process. What you see as choices I experienced as a lack of coping tools and lack of experience to avoid the mental downfall that caused me to go on autopilot and get drunk. The choice part for me came three months later when I chose to do anything and everything to end that cycle.
That said, you sound plenty compassionate. An alcoholics problems shouldn't be yours too. You deserve a happy healthy life and if he can't be part of it, by choice or by disease, thats not your issue to fix.
I'm not sure what it's like in alanon, but in aa since we are all alcoholics, even sponsors can relapse. Maybe your alanon sponsor is experiencing some codie issues, and mistakes enabling/ justification for compassion?
Detaching in a loving way doesn't not mean a lack of compassion. You are perfectly justified in holding on to your sanity.
As an alcoholic myself what I experienced is that the choice to drive to the store, choice to buy wine, choice to open and drink it, choice to keep going.... Those were all on autopilot really. The relapse I had three years ago was mental and I can't tell you the moment it happened, just the general feeling of when, and it was weeks before I basically went into zombie mode and made the string of "choices" to get drunk. It really is a weird process. What you see as choices I experienced as a lack of coping tools and lack of experience to avoid the mental downfall that caused me to go on autopilot and get drunk. The choice part for me came three months later when I chose to do anything and everything to end that cycle.
That said, you sound plenty compassionate. An alcoholics problems shouldn't be yours too. You deserve a happy healthy life and if he can't be part of it, by choice or by disease, thats not your issue to fix.
I'm not sure what it's like in alanon, but in aa since we are all alcoholics, even sponsors can relapse. Maybe your alanon sponsor is experiencing some codie issues, and mistakes enabling/ justification for compassion?
Detaching in a loving way doesn't not mean a lack of compassion. You are perfectly justified in holding on to your sanity.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
I guess the disclaimer here is that I know next to nothing about diabetes or cancer. A previous marriage counselor that we had is a diabetic and she frequently drew parallels in an attempt to help me understand and empathize with AH. My sponsor is a breast cancer survivor which is why she tries to draw that parallel.
I personally view alcoholism as a mental disorder, not a disease. In my mind it's more akin to cutting, OCD or an eating disorder.
Regardless, I don't try to understand it anymore. I'm too busy trying to understand myself, and why my sponsor was giving me crap advice. Obviously I need to find a sponsor with better advice.
Thanks for your input and validation everyone!
I personally view alcoholism as a mental disorder, not a disease. In my mind it's more akin to cutting, OCD or an eating disorder.
Regardless, I don't try to understand it anymore. I'm too busy trying to understand myself, and why my sponsor was giving me crap advice. Obviously I need to find a sponsor with better advice.
Thanks for your input and validation everyone!
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,960
I am in AA and my sponsor shares their experience....if there is no experience in attending a specific meeting and it's suggested I attend, then it is advice and not experience that is being handed out....I prefer experience.....
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 443
This is the very best thing I have ever read on the disease/choice debate:
"When I was drinking my will really was damaged. The scriptural metaphor of slavery, bondage of the will, resonates with me more than metaphors of disease, but they’re getting at the same sense of helpless compulsion. I made and broke all kinds of plans and resolutions and promises. My imagination was distorted: I literally couldn’t imagine a future without drinking.
"I am convinced that there were times, within this compulsion and constriction, when I was capable of choice. Sometimes I chose heaven—often tiny little choices which seemed pointless at the time, like the choice to read a book about addiction even though I was stressed and scared, or sincere prayers which were quickly swamped by rationalization, exhaustion, and fear—and a lot of times I chose the other place. But even in my own past, I doubt I could accurately gauge the depth of my own freedom in any individual moment. How can I hope to gauge it for others?
"This is the point that both sides of the disease/choice divide get wrong. Of course your will is constrained. Your background, what you were taught (explicitly or implicitly) growing up, your brain chemistry, your mental health—a whole host of factors out of your control, unchosen and not always even noticed, constrain your choices. But within that landscape of constraint we often do choose. We make huge leaps or crawl tiny, painful inches up or down. You’re not trapped in your brain or your past—at least, not always. But even from the inside, you can’t always see the moments when you’re free."
-- Eve Tushnet (emphasis added)
"When I was drinking my will really was damaged. The scriptural metaphor of slavery, bondage of the will, resonates with me more than metaphors of disease, but they’re getting at the same sense of helpless compulsion. I made and broke all kinds of plans and resolutions and promises. My imagination was distorted: I literally couldn’t imagine a future without drinking.
"I am convinced that there were times, within this compulsion and constriction, when I was capable of choice. Sometimes I chose heaven—often tiny little choices which seemed pointless at the time, like the choice to read a book about addiction even though I was stressed and scared, or sincere prayers which were quickly swamped by rationalization, exhaustion, and fear—and a lot of times I chose the other place. But even in my own past, I doubt I could accurately gauge the depth of my own freedom in any individual moment. How can I hope to gauge it for others?
"This is the point that both sides of the disease/choice divide get wrong. Of course your will is constrained. Your background, what you were taught (explicitly or implicitly) growing up, your brain chemistry, your mental health—a whole host of factors out of your control, unchosen and not always even noticed, constrain your choices. But within that landscape of constraint we often do choose. We make huge leaps or crawl tiny, painful inches up or down. You’re not trapped in your brain or your past—at least, not always. But even from the inside, you can’t always see the moments when you’re free."
-- Eve Tushnet (emphasis added)
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 95
Stung, I agree with you questioning the sponsor about this and sounds like you made a choice to seek someone else that is a better fit for you and makes perfect sense to do so.
In just adding to this, and it's probably a given, but since it's been on my mind just wanted to share. , the main issues I see as a choice, and the one I grapple with most in terms of harboring hope and anger about alternately, is whether or not the A gets treatment and the real sincere kind of help that means to fully embrace recovery. That I believe is the only choice where they can exert their will on more fully then "choosing to drink" which as said above is a little more insidious a choice.
That being said, I also realize that I have a choice in fully embracing my own recovery with codependency, relationship addiction, and sometimes when I go back to old behaviors it feels less like a choice, than a very very overpowering pull that I have less control over, although still I do, however I feel have more control than when out of it to figure out, understand and work on this with more help and support after I am out of that behavior. And that feels like I have more will and power over doing if I make that choice! Sorry I am rambling!
In just adding to this, and it's probably a given, but since it's been on my mind just wanted to share. , the main issues I see as a choice, and the one I grapple with most in terms of harboring hope and anger about alternately, is whether or not the A gets treatment and the real sincere kind of help that means to fully embrace recovery. That I believe is the only choice where they can exert their will on more fully then "choosing to drink" which as said above is a little more insidious a choice.
That being said, I also realize that I have a choice in fully embracing my own recovery with codependency, relationship addiction, and sometimes when I go back to old behaviors it feels less like a choice, than a very very overpowering pull that I have less control over, although still I do, however I feel have more control than when out of it to figure out, understand and work on this with more help and support after I am out of that behavior. And that feels like I have more will and power over doing if I make that choice! Sorry I am rambling!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
Stung I feel I was a bit harsh in my response (I apologize) and didn't really give the explanation I should have so here goes........
If there didn't exist choice in the disease model of Alcoholism no one would ever be able to recover. It would be a terminal disease. I do understand that there should be empathy and compassion for those whom are addicts. I believe you have a lot of that for your husband.
Your sponsor's correlation invoking Cancer to me is manipulative at this point . I can see using cancer or diabetes as example for someone newly dealing with alcoholism to understand it is a disease NOT that a person would choose to be one. Not someone who has been going at it for years with a Spouse who cannot commit 100% to recovery.
Using the cancer model - if you had a person in your life who battled cancer and won the fight, then later had a reoccurrence there is zero metaphor between that and someone who relapses. A reoccurrence of cancer is an involuntary situation. A relapse is a choice to disregard one's recovery.
As for diabetes yes its a great example of how one must attend to one's daily recovery, and I think that is what you meant. The difference in failure to comply in a diabetic doesn't mean I come home to drunken antics, lies, blame, slurring, passed out, vomiting, abuse, DUI, financial ruin, tears, loss of friends, family, income, jobs, financial ruin, bankruptcy. Your sponsor fails to acknowledge Alcoholism is a disease of the family - let go or be dragged all the way to hell with it. Choosing to stop medical treatments is a choice we all have the ability to make, as we all have the right to decide to end our lives if we no longer wish to deal with it. Its simply not the same as choosing to drink again.
If there didn't exist choice in the disease model of Alcoholism no one would ever be able to recover. It would be a terminal disease. I do understand that there should be empathy and compassion for those whom are addicts. I believe you have a lot of that for your husband.
Your sponsor's correlation invoking Cancer to me is manipulative at this point . I can see using cancer or diabetes as example for someone newly dealing with alcoholism to understand it is a disease NOT that a person would choose to be one. Not someone who has been going at it for years with a Spouse who cannot commit 100% to recovery.
Using the cancer model - if you had a person in your life who battled cancer and won the fight, then later had a reoccurrence there is zero metaphor between that and someone who relapses. A reoccurrence of cancer is an involuntary situation. A relapse is a choice to disregard one's recovery.
As for diabetes yes its a great example of how one must attend to one's daily recovery, and I think that is what you meant. The difference in failure to comply in a diabetic doesn't mean I come home to drunken antics, lies, blame, slurring, passed out, vomiting, abuse, DUI, financial ruin, tears, loss of friends, family, income, jobs, financial ruin, bankruptcy. Your sponsor fails to acknowledge Alcoholism is a disease of the family - let go or be dragged all the way to hell with it. Choosing to stop medical treatments is a choice we all have the ability to make, as we all have the right to decide to end our lives if we no longer wish to deal with it. Its simply not the same as choosing to drink again.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I absolutely validate your feelings Stung. My question to her would be, how is your fundamental, very strong belief about alcoholism helping ME? Your sponsor is there to support and encourage you in your own growth, not rag on you about not understanding alcoholism. That is just my .02
Hugs to you Stung!
Hugs to you Stung!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,778
I'm a little late to this conversation, but personally I think your sponsor is full of sh!t. You are being compassionate and your first priority is YOU and your children. The way it should be. I hope you found a new sponsor. If anything it sounds like she is undermining your progress.
So glad you're doing well. xoxoxo
So glad you're doing well. xoxoxo
Baby Steps
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,689
((((Hugs)))). I agree with everyone about your sponsor and your right I think it's time for a new one. For me it sounds like she is trying to push her own agenda and maybe hasn't addressed her own codie behaviour and she is trying to convince you she is right and your wrong. Personally I think you have shown incredible compassion but you have also stepped back to,protect yourself which is more important. I struggle with showing compassion and I've stopped trying to force feeling it for stbxah instead I'm trying to show compassion for myself first, which I think is more important.
Is a sponsor not meant to help you work through your feelings and help you reach a place of peace within yoursel and make sure the focus stays on you??
The whole disease vs choice debate is one I struggle with tbh, personally I accept it is a disease and they have no control over alcohol however I do believe they have a choice, to continue on the destructive path they are on or seek help. This is where I believe choice comes in. My stbxah chose to walk out so he could continue to drink unrestricted, he chose not to get help and fight.
I have depression, I am powerless over it, I could either choose to stay in bed or wallow all day or choose to get up each day and fight the negative thinking and low moods. I chose to fight, to seek help and get up each day and get on with it. I may not always do well and I do have bad days but hey ho don't we all. I get up the next and the next and keep fighting.
Time for a new sponsor stung, I think your doing great
Is a sponsor not meant to help you work through your feelings and help you reach a place of peace within yoursel and make sure the focus stays on you??
The whole disease vs choice debate is one I struggle with tbh, personally I accept it is a disease and they have no control over alcohol however I do believe they have a choice, to continue on the destructive path they are on or seek help. This is where I believe choice comes in. My stbxah chose to walk out so he could continue to drink unrestricted, he chose not to get help and fight.
I have depression, I am powerless over it, I could either choose to stay in bed or wallow all day or choose to get up each day and fight the negative thinking and low moods. I chose to fight, to seek help and get up each day and get on with it. I may not always do well and I do have bad days but hey ho don't we all. I get up the next and the next and keep fighting.
Time for a new sponsor stung, I think your doing great
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Laurelton
Posts: 178
Stung, I feel you on this one! I had this debate with my MIL. When my AH had relapsed for the first time I stuck with him but he was refusing any treatment/help of any sort. HE was the one that told me that inpatient taught him the importance of getting help immediately after relapse because things tend to get worse than what they initially were. Things got out of control, he was abusing pills trying to replace the alcohol, he became a threat to our children. When I told my MIL that I was leaving the relationship because AH was not taking steps to better himself she said to me "he has a disease, would you want him to leave you if you had cancer". My response was the same as yours, I compared it to diabetes as opposed to cancer. Diabetes is manageable and I told her that her son had no desire to "manage" his disease. She still carried on as if the two were comparable.....but I guess I was barking up the wrong tree anyway, she's also an A but she's in denial!
Sounds like you need a new sponsor!
Sounds like you need a new sponsor!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
A month later and I still need a new sponsor.
My sponsor is projecting her issues all over me. I spoke with her again last week and basically she kept telling me I was going through grief. I keep having resentments come up these last two weeks but I think it's related to some of the content of my last therapy session, nothing really to do with grief. I kept trying to pull the conversation to the topic of "letting things go" and meanwhile she kept trying to push the idea that I was thinking of resentments because I was trying to be "right" or because I was going through grief over the state of my marriage. She's going through a power struggle with her sibling and her alcoholic boyfriend passed away from cancer a few months ago, she's in grieving. I want to acknowledge my resentments, not stew on them. No experience, strength or hope on the manner.
I don't know why I bother talking to her, she doesn't hear me or see me as I am. I'm just a screen that she's projecting her own stuff on to. This is the "type" of person that I attract somehow. I use to think I was a very strong person and very sure of who I am but I'm beginning to think that I'm very meek because I cannot find the strength to end things with toxic people like this. Aside from just cowardly hiding from them, which happens to be very effective although totally unhealthy.
My sponsor is projecting her issues all over me. I spoke with her again last week and basically she kept telling me I was going through grief. I keep having resentments come up these last two weeks but I think it's related to some of the content of my last therapy session, nothing really to do with grief. I kept trying to pull the conversation to the topic of "letting things go" and meanwhile she kept trying to push the idea that I was thinking of resentments because I was trying to be "right" or because I was going through grief over the state of my marriage. She's going through a power struggle with her sibling and her alcoholic boyfriend passed away from cancer a few months ago, she's in grieving. I want to acknowledge my resentments, not stew on them. No experience, strength or hope on the manner.
I don't know why I bother talking to her, she doesn't hear me or see me as I am. I'm just a screen that she's projecting her own stuff on to. This is the "type" of person that I attract somehow. I use to think I was a very strong person and very sure of who I am but I'm beginning to think that I'm very meek because I cannot find the strength to end things with toxic people like this. Aside from just cowardly hiding from them, which happens to be very effective although totally unhealthy.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
I didn't see this thread before. I do know some people who appear to be working hard on their recovery, yet something seems to be missing, and they relapse repeatedly. I don't think it's always a matter of choice (though sometimes it is)--sometimes it is just the same issue of "getting it" that we have. If we aren't "getting it" we are patient with ourselves and the worst outcome is usually our own continued misery. If an alcoholic isn't "getting it" then the consequences can be life-threatening, but it still doesn't mean it's a matter of free choice. At least not unhindered choice. You can add to the normal difficulty of learning a new way of life the fact that thinking and emotions have been battered by years of alcohol consumption.
I can't say, of course, what your husband's issue is. I do know that it's possible to be compassionate toward the alcoholic and his difficulties and still be out of patience with it.
It kind of sounds, Stung, like that issue aside, your sponsor is playing armchair psychologist with you. Her job is to show you how the Steps can be applied to your problems, not to get at the root of them, herself. I do get the difficulty of being honest with people who are sincerely trying to help but not.
You could try thanking her for all her help up to now, but telling her you feel like you need a different kind of help at this point in your recovery. She might be fine with that--I imagine if you hit a wall with a sponsor/sponsee relationship it might be an equal relief for the sponsor to let someone else pick up the ball.
I can't say, of course, what your husband's issue is. I do know that it's possible to be compassionate toward the alcoholic and his difficulties and still be out of patience with it.
It kind of sounds, Stung, like that issue aside, your sponsor is playing armchair psychologist with you. Her job is to show you how the Steps can be applied to your problems, not to get at the root of them, herself. I do get the difficulty of being honest with people who are sincerely trying to help but not.
You could try thanking her for all her help up to now, but telling her you feel like you need a different kind of help at this point in your recovery. She might be fine with that--I imagine if you hit a wall with a sponsor/sponsee relationship it might be an equal relief for the sponsor to let someone else pick up the ball.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
Originally Posted by Stung 
A month later and I still need a new sponsor.
My sponsor is projecting her issues all over me. I spoke with her again last week and basically she kept telling me I was going through grief. I keep having resentments come up these last two weeks but I think it's related to some of the content of my last therapy session, nothing really to do with grief. I kept trying to pull the conversation to the topic of "letting things go" and meanwhile she kept trying to push the idea that I was thinking of resentments because I was trying to be "right" or because I was going through grief over the state of my marriage. She's going through a power struggle with her sibling and her alcoholic boyfriend passed away from cancer a few months ago, she's in grieving. I want to acknowledge my resentments, not stew on them. No experience, strength or hope on the manner.
I don't know why I bother talking to her, she doesn't hear me or see me as I am. I'm just a screen that she's projecting her own stuff on to. This is the "type" of person that I attract somehow. I use to think I was a very strong person and very sure of who I am but I'm beginning to think that I'm very meek because I cannot find the strength to end things with toxic people like this. Aside from just cowardly hiding from them, which happens to be very effective although totally unhealthy.
My sponsor is projecting her issues all over me. I spoke with her again last week and basically she kept telling me I was going through grief. I keep having resentments come up these last two weeks but I think it's related to some of the content of my last therapy session, nothing really to do with grief. I kept trying to pull the conversation to the topic of "letting things go" and meanwhile she kept trying to push the idea that I was thinking of resentments because I was trying to be "right" or because I was going through grief over the state of my marriage. She's going through a power struggle with her sibling and her alcoholic boyfriend passed away from cancer a few months ago, she's in grieving. I want to acknowledge my resentments, not stew on them. No experience, strength or hope on the manner.
I don't know why I bother talking to her, she doesn't hear me or see me as I am. I'm just a screen that she's projecting her own stuff on to. This is the "type" of person that I attract somehow. I use to think I was a very strong person and very sure of who I am but I'm beginning to think that I'm very meek because I cannot find the strength to end things with toxic people like this. Aside from just cowardly hiding from them, which happens to be very effective although totally unhealthy.
I don't think you are weak.
I think you are getting a recovery "learning" piece just when you are ready for it.
The stuff about your hubby aside. This relationship with your sponsor is not working for you anymore. You see a pattern with this person that you have become aware of....and you are working on "doing" it different this time.
That to me looks and sounds like recovery. When the student is ready, the teacher appears.
That does not make it easy, but it always helps me when I see it as a part of changing my dysfunctional patterns for the better. It gives me a little permission to be messy and not get it perfect. She may be upset with it/you....but if you intend and try to say what you mean, and mean what you say and not say it mean it will work out......
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
It's more important to have compassion for yourself rather than a relapsing A.
Having compassion for them just leads to enabling them.
Having compassion for them just leads to enabling them.
Originally Posted by Stung
Okay, I recently met with my sponsor. Told her about how AH relapsed last week, it's no big deal to me - I feel bad for the guy but at the same time this really doesn't impact me. We don't live together, he doesn't drink around me or the girls. If he's going to drink, he's going to drink, nothing I can do about it. I offered him as much empathy as I could and told him I was sorry he was going through a difficult time.
Anywho, so I'm telling my sponsor about this and I said "...I feel bad that he made the choice to drink..." and she spent about 30 minutes telling me that I'm not compassionate because I think he has a choice in whether he drinks or not. That I don't understand the disease (I fully agree that I don't understand - I understand alcoholism as much as my husband will even understand pregnancy. He knows how the science of it, but not the first hand experience of it.). Then she tells me that I need to go to an open AA meeting but when I ask her what those are like she tells me that she doesn't know because she's never actually been to one herself.
Someone on SR opened my eyes to the wonders of the Mr.Sponsorpants blog where I discovered the phrase "we're not responsible for the 1st thought that comes into our minds, but we ARE responsible for the 2nd though." I have no doubts that my husband wants to drink. I don't doubt that it's really difficult to quiet those thoughts.
But ultimately it IS his choice to drive to the liquor store.
It IS his choice to select a bottle from the shelf.
It IS his choice to purchase that bottle.
It IS his choice to open the bottle and pour the contents into his mouth.
It IS his choice to continue to drink that bottle.
Further it IS his choice to not call someone in a moment of desperation, when the bad choices feel like the BEST or ONLY choice.
It's my choice to decide how to react to him as much as it's his choice to choose to do these things. My choices effect ME the most but they also effect the other people in my life.
She tried comparing alcoholic to cancer and then was frustrated when I asked that we compare it to diabetes instead. I imagine that it's difficult for a diabetic to go to a birthday party, ice cream social, Starbucks for Pete's sake, etc. with the temptation of sweets but knowing that it could very well kill you. But the decision lies within their own ability to make good choices.
Right? Or have I somehow completely missed her point? Drinking is a choice. It is how some addicts DO stay clean.
Right?
Anywho, so I'm telling my sponsor about this and I said "...I feel bad that he made the choice to drink..." and she spent about 30 minutes telling me that I'm not compassionate because I think he has a choice in whether he drinks or not. That I don't understand the disease (I fully agree that I don't understand - I understand alcoholism as much as my husband will even understand pregnancy. He knows how the science of it, but not the first hand experience of it.). Then she tells me that I need to go to an open AA meeting but when I ask her what those are like she tells me that she doesn't know because she's never actually been to one herself.
Someone on SR opened my eyes to the wonders of the Mr.Sponsorpants blog where I discovered the phrase "we're not responsible for the 1st thought that comes into our minds, but we ARE responsible for the 2nd though." I have no doubts that my husband wants to drink. I don't doubt that it's really difficult to quiet those thoughts.
But ultimately it IS his choice to drive to the liquor store.
It IS his choice to select a bottle from the shelf.
It IS his choice to purchase that bottle.
It IS his choice to open the bottle and pour the contents into his mouth.
It IS his choice to continue to drink that bottle.
Further it IS his choice to not call someone in a moment of desperation, when the bad choices feel like the BEST or ONLY choice.
It's my choice to decide how to react to him as much as it's his choice to choose to do these things. My choices effect ME the most but they also effect the other people in my life.
She tried comparing alcoholic to cancer and then was frustrated when I asked that we compare it to diabetes instead. I imagine that it's difficult for a diabetic to go to a birthday party, ice cream social, Starbucks for Pete's sake, etc. with the temptation of sweets but knowing that it could very well kill you. But the decision lies within their own ability to make good choices.
Right? Or have I somehow completely missed her point? Drinking is a choice. It is how some addicts DO stay clean.
Right?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: America
Posts: 4,136
Originally Posted by Stung
Okay, I recently met with my sponsor. Told her about how AH relapsed last week, it's no big deal to me - I feel bad for the guy but at the same time this really doesn't impact me. We don't live together, he doesn't drink around me or the girls. If he's going to drink, he's going to drink, nothing I can do about it. I offered him as much empathy as I could and told him I was sorry he was going through a difficult time.
Anywho, so I'm telling my sponsor about this and I said "...I feel bad that he made the choice to drink..." and she spent about 30 minutes telling me that I'm not compassionate because I think he has a choice in whether he drinks or not. That I don't understand the disease (I fully agree that I don't understand - I understand alcoholism as much as my husband will even understand pregnancy. He knows how the science of it, but not the first hand experience of it.). Then she tells me that I need to go to an open AA meeting but when I ask her what those are like she tells me that she doesn't know because she's never actually been to one herself.
Someone on SR opened my eyes to the wonders of the Mr.Sponsorpants blog where I discovered the phrase "we're not responsible for the 1st thought that comes into our minds, but we ARE responsible for the 2nd though." I have no doubts that my husband wants to drink. I don't doubt that it's really difficult to quiet those thoughts.
But ultimately it IS his choice to drive to the liquor store.
It IS his choice to select a bottle from the shelf.
It IS his choice to purchase that bottle.
It IS his choice to open the bottle and pour the contents into his mouth.
It IS his choice to continue to drink that bottle.
Further it IS his choice to not call someone in a moment of desperation, when the bad choices feel like the BEST or ONLY choice.
It's my choice to decide how to react to him as much as it's his choice to choose to do these things. My choices effect ME the most but they also effect the other people in my life.
She tried comparing alcoholic to cancer and then was frustrated when I asked that we compare it to diabetes instead. I imagine that it's difficult for a diabetic to go to a birthday party, ice cream social, Starbucks for Pete's sake, etc. with the temptation of sweets but knowing that it could very well kill you. But the decision lies within their own ability to make good choices.
Right? Or have I somehow completely missed her point? Drinking is a choice. It is how some addicts DO stay clean.
Right?
Anywho, so I'm telling my sponsor about this and I said "...I feel bad that he made the choice to drink..." and she spent about 30 minutes telling me that I'm not compassionate because I think he has a choice in whether he drinks or not. That I don't understand the disease (I fully agree that I don't understand - I understand alcoholism as much as my husband will even understand pregnancy. He knows how the science of it, but not the first hand experience of it.). Then she tells me that I need to go to an open AA meeting but when I ask her what those are like she tells me that she doesn't know because she's never actually been to one herself.
Someone on SR opened my eyes to the wonders of the Mr.Sponsorpants blog where I discovered the phrase "we're not responsible for the 1st thought that comes into our minds, but we ARE responsible for the 2nd though." I have no doubts that my husband wants to drink. I don't doubt that it's really difficult to quiet those thoughts.
But ultimately it IS his choice to drive to the liquor store.
It IS his choice to select a bottle from the shelf.
It IS his choice to purchase that bottle.
It IS his choice to open the bottle and pour the contents into his mouth.
It IS his choice to continue to drink that bottle.
Further it IS his choice to not call someone in a moment of desperation, when the bad choices feel like the BEST or ONLY choice.
It's my choice to decide how to react to him as much as it's his choice to choose to do these things. My choices effect ME the most but they also effect the other people in my life.
She tried comparing alcoholic to cancer and then was frustrated when I asked that we compare it to diabetes instead. I imagine that it's difficult for a diabetic to go to a birthday party, ice cream social, Starbucks for Pete's sake, etc. with the temptation of sweets but knowing that it could very well kill you. But the decision lies within their own ability to make good choices.
Right? Or have I somehow completely missed her point? Drinking is a choice. It is how some addicts DO stay clean.
Right?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 6
I agee with you - thank you for posting your thoughts. I went to a Family Program at our son's rehab and to me it seemed like they were speaking out both sides of their mouth. "It is a disease." They even compared it to cancer - which if I was offended by. But, then they tell us not to "enable" and be "co-dependents". They said we have to be willing to let them go live under a bridge if they continue to use. Would you let your loved one with cancer go live under a bridge and die? I really like what you said about not being able to control the first thought, but all the other thoughts and actions that lead to the person actually using they do have control over. That is exactly how I see it, but just hadn't thought to express it like that.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
Originally Posted by NeedAFriend88
I really like what you said about not being able to control the first thought, but all the other thoughts and actions that lead to the person actually using they do have control over.
What "willingness" doesn't mean.
Willingness does not mean "want to."
I thought it did. In fact, when I first showed up in A.A. I was very confused about what the word "willing" meant. I thought that to be willing to do something you had to want to do it.
Ultimately I discovered that that's not right at all. In fact, "willing" for me often means I will do (or at least try to do)* what I don't want to do -- and of course sometimes the reverse, as well.
"Want to" really has nothing to do with it.
*And do not, I mean just do not serve up any of that Yoda crap to me on that score: "Do, or do not, there is no Try!" That was Yoda's famous line, I believe. That might work great if you're a tiny green Jedi Master, jumping around in a homespun kimono, living on a swamp planet teaching young men to embrace the Force (and what kind of a personal ad are you running to do that, I wonder? "Vertically challenged, cross dressing teacher seeks Socratic relationship with young pupil. hwp, pic for trade." Is there a Craig's List in outer space?) But if you're an alcoholic working to avoid black-and-white thinking, and trying to stay out of the results, 'try' can be a good way to begin. "I'm going to try" can be the first thought before picking up the pen, or getting up off the sofa, or kneeling down to pray, if any of those things are problematic for you. And maybe it's in the 'try' that the willingness lives. As an alcoholic/addict I am so prone to wanting to quit before I even start -- I unconsciously believe I have to already know how to do something before I even attempt it -- or I somehow think I'm not allowed to goof, and have to get it 100% correct from the moment I begin -- all messages some of us have gotten maybe from our childhood, or maybe from the world at large -- or maybe because we misunderstood something along the way. That kind of stealth perfectionism is a paralysis, and works against the forward motion that goes hand-in-hand with being willing. To create a willing state, I don't have to wait to want to do something, I can decide to do it regardless -- and if that decision is blocked by fear or perfectionism (which is also fear) or sloth (which is also fear) or ... you get the idea ... maybe I can begin ... get just one foot out over the edge of the bed and onto the floor ... through the simplicity of "try."
Willingness does not mean "want to."
I thought it did. In fact, when I first showed up in A.A. I was very confused about what the word "willing" meant. I thought that to be willing to do something you had to want to do it.
Ultimately I discovered that that's not right at all. In fact, "willing" for me often means I will do (or at least try to do)* what I don't want to do -- and of course sometimes the reverse, as well.
"Want to" really has nothing to do with it.
*And do not, I mean just do not serve up any of that Yoda crap to me on that score: "Do, or do not, there is no Try!" That was Yoda's famous line, I believe. That might work great if you're a tiny green Jedi Master, jumping around in a homespun kimono, living on a swamp planet teaching young men to embrace the Force (and what kind of a personal ad are you running to do that, I wonder? "Vertically challenged, cross dressing teacher seeks Socratic relationship with young pupil. hwp, pic for trade." Is there a Craig's List in outer space?) But if you're an alcoholic working to avoid black-and-white thinking, and trying to stay out of the results, 'try' can be a good way to begin. "I'm going to try" can be the first thought before picking up the pen, or getting up off the sofa, or kneeling down to pray, if any of those things are problematic for you. And maybe it's in the 'try' that the willingness lives. As an alcoholic/addict I am so prone to wanting to quit before I even start -- I unconsciously believe I have to already know how to do something before I even attempt it -- or I somehow think I'm not allowed to goof, and have to get it 100% correct from the moment I begin -- all messages some of us have gotten maybe from our childhood, or maybe from the world at large -- or maybe because we misunderstood something along the way. That kind of stealth perfectionism is a paralysis, and works against the forward motion that goes hand-in-hand with being willing. To create a willing state, I don't have to wait to want to do something, I can decide to do it regardless -- and if that decision is blocked by fear or perfectionism (which is also fear) or sloth (which is also fear) or ... you get the idea ... maybe I can begin ... get just one foot out over the edge of the bed and onto the floor ... through the simplicity of "try."
Things I learned (or was reminded of) this week.
I am not responsible for my first thought, but I'm responsible for my second. (And then what I choose to do about them after that.)
It is astonishing how effective and helpful several deep (I mean really, really deep) slow breaths can be when I need to pause and unclench and consider my next thought, word or deed.
Self obsession is a master of disguise.
Worries are the termites of Faith.
Service never fails me -- and its rewards (freedom from worry, self obsession and lack of faith) resonate long after I am alone again.
I am not responsible for my first thought, but I'm responsible for my second. (And then what I choose to do about them after that.)
It is astonishing how effective and helpful several deep (I mean really, really deep) slow breaths can be when I need to pause and unclench and consider my next thought, word or deed.
Self obsession is a master of disguise.
Worries are the termites of Faith.
Service never fails me -- and its rewards (freedom from worry, self obsession and lack of faith) resonate long after I am alone again.
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