ShootingStar1

Butterfly, what if it is just too early to start dating again? From my own experience, I waited over two years because it took me over two years to heal from the lifetime of bad experiences and the resulting bad choices I made of partners.

I just didn't want to be the person I had been who had drawn these men to me and who had fallen for these men. The guys I picked were the walking around models of the people in my childhood who had hurt me so badly. I just didn't want them anymore, and I figured the best way for me to stop attracting them was to change myself at my core so that I sent out different signals.

Being in relationship with ourselves, and healing the damage in ourselves, is, to me, the most powerful way toward an authentic relationship with someone who is truly healthy.

ShootingStar1

Hawkeye13

Star has the right of it--
I think learning about yourself,
and building a loving relationship with you
will be the key to long-term happiness and attracting
the kind of loving partner who will mirror this.
The dating seems to have been triggering some deep-seated issues
which outweigh the benefits as the moment

Don't settle for anything less than a fine, loving person
who will show up when you are truly ready. Promise.

atalose

I think you mentioned graving attention and I would suggest you explore that with your counselor when you can get in to see her.

The thing about the “need” for attention is…………positive or negative attention works just as long as it is attention. And male attention seems extremely important to you.

When you meet someone and that “attention” button gets pushed you feel great about yourself, feel wanted and needed, self-esteem is higher so you grasp onto what’s making you feel that way because you don’t want that feeling to end………….kind of like an addict “getting high”. You do whatever you can (sleeping with them) so it continues but ends up negative for you.

I think working on your self-esteem so that you don’t need to be validated by a male’s attention for your worth is a foundation you need to build.

dandylion

Butterfly, I can't help but notice the pattern of your obsessive symptoms becoming worse when your counselor leaves for an extended time...like she is now. It seems like your counselor is leaving a lot....I know that you are in a situation of frequently changing counselors....and you have to wait for low cost volunteer type counselors....
I get it that the system in England is different than here in the US. I also understand your financial restrictions for this kind of care in your country.

Given your history of severe ongoing childhood trauma and wounding by the desertion, over and over by your mother......I wonder if you have ever had any deep ongoing therapy by a professional who is competent in the area of abuse and trauma.
What I am wondering about is the existence of groups (face to face) that address abuse---including childhood abuse....I am talking about ongoing support groups. Groups that are free or at a minimal cost.
There have got to be some in your country, I would think.
Face to face support groups provide the human connection and validation that is so badly needed.....
Other groups such as OCD support groups would be another option, I would think.....

The points that I am getting at is that you may need much more specific and targeted therapy---directed to your particular needs....Obsessive compulsive disorder and childhood abuse.... AND---the need for the human connection that you and every single one of us NEED.
I know that you are intelligent and have read a lot of books....books are great...self-help books can really help....but, there is no substitution for relationships and bonding with other humans.
Even babies who are without that.....have failure to thrive...or even die if it is severely denied in the early years.

I am trying to look at the big picture of your pain, here....
These are my thoughts.......so, as usual, take what might be helpful to you and leave the rest.....

dandylion

FireSprite

Yes B, that IS the point of recovery - figuring yourself out.

But, I think what is being suggested to you again here is that you AREN'T doing that by getting into relationships with other people before you are in a healthy enough place yourself. If you want a different result you have to be willing to try something different.

Let me see if I can explain this more generically, so you can separate yourself from the story.

Codies, but I think especially lifelong codies that learn this behavior from early childhood, often have this way of defining themselves in relation to those around them. In a sense, you grow up with others telling you who you are, what you like, what you can & can't do to the extent that those things become your personality traits. You think that they ARE you. These things are based on the expectations & needs of others though - they aren't genuine characteristics of the Codie's authentic self.

But, sigh, with enough time & repetition, we just accept it - and in a messed up way, it's easier because there are some pretty clear definitions & boundaries to follow. ("I am the caretaker/scapegoat/ problem solver.... these are things required of me to do my steps in this Dysfunction Dance") When it is what you have always known, it feels safe & right to have these labels. But you are never really living - just shadowing someone else's steps. Living life as a reaction to someone else's actions.

You're happy? Then so am I. You like this music? Me too. That upsets you? I won't do it anymore. You don't like that place? We'll stop going. Etc. We don't even realize how insidious it gets to be. And it IS hard, impossibly hard, to separate it all later. What's REALLY mine? What did I just go along with?

It's easy to transfer these behaviors throughout our relationships. When we're younger, we aren't generally noticing the patterns yet because these kinds of cycles often take many years to actually "see" - in the moments while it's happening it's more about the displaced feelings & getting through *this* to the *next* moment. We don't see the overlap, not yet, of how we transfer our attachments from one relationship to the next. We don't have the benefit of hindsight until much later.

When we find ourselves alone then, facing our Selves, we don't know who we're looking at because we've just been a reflection of someone else in so many ways. And figuring that part out after all of ^^ that? Ugh, easier to go back to the Codie ways, get into a relationship, get a definition when that person tells me who they want/need me to be. That will create validation & a sense of belonging & then this, this mess of Me, won't seem as heavy to deal with or maybe even worth doing anything about at all. Won't even be necessary.

I am a pretty outspoken, strong person & I have never had a shortage of opinions. But I was SHOCKED - I mean that in a literal sense - STRUCK DUMB by how much I didn't understand about my own likes & dislikes, wants & needs. DD once asked me if I could be anything in the world what would I be?... and I broke out into tears because no answer just *popped* into my mind. I realized I had gone so far as to give up on dreaming about things, but I would sure as hell work hard toward goals set by someone else!

It feels like standing at the edge of a cliff looking out & seeing a gigantic void, just a lot of foggy nothing stretching into forever. How did people stand here & look & see an entirely different picture? How did they look out there & see for themselves without someone first pointing out what everything was & what pitfalls to avoid?

I don't know how they do it, but I do it in baby steps & a picture is starting to emerge at 4 yrs into a full-life recovery.

What's worse B? Spending some time alone - gasp, yes, maybe even a couple of years, lol - and getting to a solid place in your life where you can be happy with or without a companion..... or chasing the same cycles, the same obsessions until you just "end up" somewhere? Where do you want to BE? JMHO

Butterfly

Thank you everyone. You have all made some very valid points.

I've been on my own 19 months and thought maybe this is the next step I should be taking in my recovery, you know living my recovery and not hiding out all the time.

I never seem to be happy within myself yes having someone pay me attention gives me a co five cents boost but once it's gone I'm back feeling no good and struggling to get through each day. I hate living my life this way, feeling this way.

I have a new counsellor which I am paying for but she is was away for 6 weeks, I knew this when I first went to see her but I clicked with her and thought long term she would be able to help me. I am due to see her in another week.

When I look back on my relationships they have all been people who had issues, drugs, alcohol, controlling behaviour etc but never a guy who was only interested in one thing and cleared off when he got it!! I didn't honestly think a man of this guys age would behave that way and then not even have the decency to tell me to my face he didn't want to see me again, I know very naive of me! Maybe that's also why I chose the career I have, my need to fix people, help them solve problems So they can be better parents, support them through difficult times and maybe why I love the crisis of my job and why I'm bored when it's quiet!! I wouldn't know what else to do though.

You know I did have my doubts about him but I kept ignoring them and if I am being honest with myself had he not ignored me and wanted to still see me I would have continued to see him, just to be with someone, I am so screwed up!! Reading a post I realised that I was doing things for this guy to please him, not for me, wearing my hair a certain way, certain clothes I knew he liked, I even got into the car with him after he had had 3 pints, I wouldn't have gotten into the car with my stbxah even if he'd have had one drink or anyone else for that matter, again i wasn't being true to me but I still don't know who me is. Your right I've spent so many years being someone else for stbxah, my parents everyone else that I lost who I was and I still haven't found her and despite trying I don't know how.

I look at all my friends and see their happy relationships with people who love and care for them, even my friend who's husband walked out 5 months ago has met someone and is happy and I think I want that!! I'm jealous I guess.

Sorry I know this comment is all over the place, just like me, it's like one step forward and 20 back!!

Oh and as for my coat he apparently left it on my door step this morning, by the time I got home from work it wasn't here, so probably stolen. Didn't even have the decency to hand it to me directly!!

jjj111

Sadly, I have found that there are jerky men of all ages. (I'm sure the same goes for women.) Do something nice for yourself this week, B. This one flaky guy doesn't define you. You are still working on your recovery, and maybe you even learned a little something from this about the importance of staying true to you.

Butterfly

Thanks jjj yes I did learn from this the difficulty I have is the confidence to stay true to myself, whoever that may be.

It's the Anniversary of my friends mums death this weekend, 7 years and it's always difficult for her so spending time with her, try and get her out and about a bit..

lizatola

You said something in one of your posts above that made me think this: The minute you compromise yourself, your values, your likes or dislikes in order to please someone else you are headed for a dead end and a dead relationship. It's ok to compromise in a committed loving relationship but when you feel that you are compromising your values (getting in the car with someone who's been drinking in your case) then that should be a red flag. A red flag that has nothing to do with the other person. These are red flags that exist within yourself.

I found that I needed to identify my own red flags. I had to find out why I couldn't set boundaries. Why I allowed unacceptable behavior to happen in my own home. Why I would people please everyone and everything and put them all before myself. Why? Because I never felt good enough. I was never smart enough, sexy enough, loving enough, pretty enough, etc. I just was never enough.

I know better today and I have set my standards higher but it's taken 3 years of therapy and 4 years of recovery in Al Anon and I'm still making mistakes in my judgement and questioning my motivation and needs vs wants, etc. I'm getting better at it, but it takes time.

From what I've seen in this thread, I applaud your desire to take a look at yourself. That is a great first step in recovery. The obsessive thoughts are a serious issue for those of us who are codependent. I had to find ways to channel the obsessive thoughts and I started journaling, meditating, and praying. I expanded my network of Al Anon friends and I started reaching out more and more. I expanded where I got my validation from instead of getting it from a man.

redatlanta

Yes I applaud you too B, you really are coming across much more calm and introspective.

IME unhealthy people attract.....unhealthy people. Its the law of the Universe. You can have a a healthy. committed relationship and you will!! You are working very hard to solve these issues. You will get there.

Dear, I have know men that were in their 70's that act like this guy. back in my single days there was a group of them that made the rounds at the Bars. I think the oldest was 78 and players still. They all wanted young women for a date, but were committed to each OTHER like the boys club for toys, women and drinking. I remember watching on more than one occasion a woman rebuffed whom the previous night had been in the spotlight. Last year I met a friend at one of these old hang outs I hadn't been there in years, and whom do I see but these old farts still there!! OMG how sad and pathetic! What most didn't know was that almost all these men were married. How sad to be 80 years old and propped up on a bar ****-faced (though really good at hiding it) desperate to see if you can coerce some woman (buy enough drinks I mean) into giving you some attention.

Anyway, glad he just stopped calling he is BAD NEWS.

FireSprite

You ARE doing really great Butterfly, it's just a very long process. Part of it IS getting out there, meeting new people & being ready for exactly what you found - there are ALL KINDS of crazy dysfunctional peeps out there!

But let's back up - when you say you've been on your own 19 months... how much of that time was spent still carrying the expectation of your STXAH returning to the relationship? And then guy #1? And now guy #2? Putting yourself under the pressure of thinking you "should" be at a certain point because of the timeline isn't really being fair to yourself. Being "single" & being focused on yourself fully are not the same thing, IMO. Being focused on yourself doesn't exclude dating either, for the record. But at the same time - you don't even have the divorce papers signed yet, right? How does hopeful4 say it? This is your life, not a race! You don't need to judge your life by your friend's experiences - it may not even by the full picture, you may be tainting it by what you want to read into it. I GET the jealousy thing. But I also know that sometimes when I took another look at the same situation when I was feeling healthier emotionally, I often saw a totally different picture & more red flags that I was first acknowledging.

I remember one point when I was dealing with a lot of crazy behavior from people who would never view themselves as dysfunctional in ANY way & thinking, you know? I think, for just this moment, I'm really, really happy to have a label & a name & an awareness of what I'm healing past because it has given me perspective & opportunity for growth in a way I would never have if I were still as blinded by denial. No matter where I am or what I'm dealing with, I have the potential for growth as long as I stay committed to staying aware of myself. (which, really, is not such a big commitment to make.)

I have a saying that I use as a mantra when I am struggling: This is where I am, not who I am. It reminds me of one of the 100% truths in life: nothing lasts forever & all things end. Falling down/feeling down doesn't define me, but getting back up DOES.

It doesn't matter if you have to stand up 100x Butterfly, every success has been achieved through thousands of failures. That doesn't make it any less of a success when it happens. I truly believe that when you get to that happy point on your own in your healing, the perfect guy is literally going to waltz right into your life anyway. I think like-energy draws like-energy & you'll be happiest with someone else when you are happiest with yourself first.

Do you ever go back & read other's recovery stories for inspiration? In the relatively short time I've been here there have been so many successes with the gift of sharing their stories so eloquently here with us at SR. LaTeeDa & ShootingStar1 come top of mind but there are so, so many. So many varied stories & so many varied sets of circumstances; just a thought! (recent successes wanttobehealthy, Wisconsin, Honeypig, firebolt, etc. etc.)

I'd go shopping & buy myself an awesome, inspired new coat. I'd block this joker's number & chalk this all up to it now being a BTDT experience in your dating life. He's not worth your time no matter how he tries to reestablish contact at this point so be the one to take control & draw a firm boundary. Every time you put yourself first in a small way like this & then HONOR yourself by holding your boundaries, you build self respect & confidence & you empower yourself. You show that healing part of Butterfly inside of that She matters & Her needs are worth it.

Butterfly, don't forget that! It's no small deal sharing YOUR story with us here at SR, we're all watching you grow!

theuncertainty

I understand wanting to be in a relationship. I understand watching friends, recent from divorces already dating, possibly already serious; I have two friends that fit this criteria. The thing is, my friends are not coming out of a 16 year relationship with an abusive partner. I did. So, of course, I'm not going to be able to start a good relationship as quickly as they did. I'm having to let go of the hurt and mis-trust and unlearn coping habits from 16 years of abuse.

I didn't see that initially. It's taken time. Sometimes it takes reminders.

And, like I mentioned, I was with AXH for 16 years. That's 16 years during which I slowly forgot how to behave in a 'normal' relationship, during which I learned incredibly unhealthy ways to cope and act with regards to my partner, during which I lost SO much of myself. I've been away from AXH for about 8 years now, divorced for almost 5. I haven't had to see him for 3 years. I'm just now feeling comfortable that I know who I am. I'm still not comfortable that I'll hold onto my Self rather than becoming who I think a BF wants if I start dating seriously.

Not that it'll take you or any one else 8+ years to reach that point. But if you don't know who you are, how can you hold onto You when you're dating someone? And if you don't know who you are, how can you know you'll recognize if a date could or should be a more serious partner?

Butterfly

Thank you everyone, I've so much to think about!!

Thank you red and lizatola

I've deleted his number, the more I think about things I more I worry that I will continue to settle for guys like this. He's done me a favour by not counting me as I do think that if he had wanted to see me again I would have, this will be a problem unless I address these issues as to why I am willing to settle. I can see the benefits of taking things slow, when it's intense and constant messaging etc I'm focused on the thrill and excitement that I'm getting attention, feeling good rather than on whether the way the relationship is heading is something I feel good about or comfortable with, am I being to easy, not respecting my own boundaries and listening to my gut. I find listening to my gut difficult as I don't know if it's fear or anxiety or gut instincts so I put it down to fear and anxiety.

Your right firesprite, thank you although I've been separated 19 months, for a long time I wanted to fix my marriage and it's only been in recent months, since about January that I have began to focus on myself, but then I'm so easily distracted from my recovery!

Thanks The uncertainty, yip I was with stbxah 19 years that's going to take a long time to recover from and rediscover who I am. I've only realised that I haven't seen him in over a year and I love the peace and quiet I have, no anxiety about his drinking or what he's doing, it's great!! But I still have a lot of recovery from the effects of my marriage, I've been so used to doing what he wants, being who he wants, making sure he's happy that I have completely lost myself, guess it's time to honestly find myself and stop letting fear dictate.

Lilro

Sex is just sex.... He's an ass..... Buy yourself a new coat.

That's all I've got.

One day the right guy will come along. Until then, take a deal breath, cut yourself a break and move forward. You ARE worth more than you realize.
Hugssssss
Ro.

AnvilheadII

butterfly, why not put yourself on a MAN BAN.....give yourself the freedom and space to work on YOU. give yourself TIME to find things that bring you joy, to discover what you like and what you don't. take yourself on little adventures......try sushi or try rock climbing or take up an adult ed class? cooking class, hiking club, art class. maybe repaint your bedroom?

a great book i have read twice now is The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing, it's about way more than JUST tidying the home......her underlying method is to have only those things in our lives that bring us JOY. while i'm no where near finished with my personal tidying adventure, it definitely has made a difference in my thinking and in the things i have LET GO.

earlier this week i attended a work conference and was all worried about what i would wear. the dress-up work clothes just aren't fitting like they should and i realized the problem. if i didn't go get some new stuff that fit comfortably and i felt good in, i would spend the entire time feeling fat and awful and constantly tugging at this or that. so i got a couple new non-clingly, non form hugging tops and that made a HUGE difference.

i so wish i had applied this to the damn shoes. by the end of the first day i have to buy bandaids for all the raw spots and blisters. i finally ditched them and just wore my sketchers....while that was not exactly elegant, i sure could move with more ease!

in order to be comfortable with who we are, we have to accept WHERE we are and then adapt and accommodate.

i will never wear those damn shoes again. they not only don't bring me joy, they bring me pain. so what would be the point???????

Rosiepetal

If you are unsure about your relationships then there is no shame in taking a step back or ending a relationship because you are unsure.
Always put yourself & your happiness first.
Hugs.

CarryThatWeight

AnvilheadII, I love it! I'm on a MAN BAN!!! And I truly am. That just made me laugh!

Butterfly

Thank you everyone.

Lilro, I've bought a new coat, stuff him he is an ass and his behaviour says more about him than me, I just need to remember that when I'm analysing every little thing lol and accept that just because I'm an honest and kind person doesn't mean everyone else I meet will be!

Anvil, thank you for your story sorry about your sore feet. I have realised that I began dating for all the wrong reasons, my fiends thought it would be good for me so I did it but also along the way I realised that I wanted someone to fill the void, stop me feeling how I do about myself and the lonliness, I began dating for all the wrong reasons. I've deleted my profile on the dating website and I am on a complete man ban until I start to love who I am actually until I start to figure out who I am more to the point. At least that's where I need to start, how can I love myself when I don't know who I am!!

Thanks rosiepetal