New with recovery question
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March, what do you want? You shoot down every reply on here. We want it to work out for you. We don't think you have control over her, but you think it's ok to manipulate her environment to somehow "keep her as she is now." I think that's wrong and I don't want someone manipulating my environment and trying to control me. That's what you're doing even if you don't acknowledge it. We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't think of a thing more to say because you have an answer for EVERYTHING.
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Originally Posted by CarryThatWeight 
March, what do you want? You shoot down every reply on here. We want it to work out for you. We don't think you have control over her, but you think it's ok to manipulate her environment to somehow "keep her as she is now." I think that's wrong and I don't want someone manipulating my environment and trying to control me. That's what you're doing even if you don't acknowledge it. We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't think of a thing more to say because you have an answer for EVERYTHING.
Sorry you feel I'm not getting anything out of this thread. I've gotten a LOT of good info... and a good PM, too.
Good info on the Secular forum, Blue Chair has has excellent comments as others have. Also good info about CRAFT, and that's very good info.
There's also some differences of opinion here, and I'm sorting thru them, and some comments that don't apply. A few facts that perhaps you're missing:
I'm not a "control or manipulation" freak. I'm just trying to improve our environment, and got good ideas here. She is doing the same for me.
We may be disagreeing on the semantics or something, and yes, we can agree to disagree.
I'm learning, and this forum has helped. Keep it coming. Thanks.
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Keep going on the path that works for you March. I dont see control issues in your posts.
One thing I struggled with when my husband was in early recovery was just fear. And it would masquerade as different emotions at times, but in the end I had to face the fears. I dont know if this idea would be helpful? but our family therapist had us walk through plans in case of a relapse. Mostly its been about identifying our support structures and knowing his addiction doctor, therapist, our closet family and friends will be here for both of us. We have a plan to escalate medical help for him if need be.
Happy the Craft and Smart info was helpful.
One thing I struggled with when my husband was in early recovery was just fear. And it would masquerade as different emotions at times, but in the end I had to face the fears. I dont know if this idea would be helpful? but our family therapist had us walk through plans in case of a relapse. Mostly its been about identifying our support structures and knowing his addiction doctor, therapist, our closet family and friends will be here for both of us. We have a plan to escalate medical help for him if need be.
Happy the Craft and Smart info was helpful.
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Originally Posted by BlueChair
Keep going on the path that works for you March. I dont see control issues in your posts.
One thing I struggled with when my husband was in early recovery was just fear. And it would masquerade as different emotions at times, but in the end I had to face the fears. I dont know if this idea would be helpful? but our family therapist had us walk through plans in case of a relapse. Mostly its been about identifying our support structures and knowing his addiction doctor, therapist, our closet family and friends will be here for both of us. We have a plan to escalate medical help for him if need be.
Happy the Craft and Smart info was helpful.
One thing I struggled with when my husband was in early recovery was just fear. And it would masquerade as different emotions at times, but in the end I had to face the fears. I dont know if this idea would be helpful? but our family therapist had us walk through plans in case of a relapse. Mostly its been about identifying our support structures and knowing his addiction doctor, therapist, our closet family and friends will be here for both of us. We have a plan to escalate medical help for him if need be.
Happy the Craft and Smart info was helpful.
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Originally Posted by March1234
Thanks much for the encouraging post. I hope I never face a relapse, but odds are probably against me, so I'd like to be prepared to deal with it positively. We have talked a bit about it and my thought process now is to support her, get thru it and address a solution.
But I hope I dont have to see a relapse either. Id prefer it all keeps coming up roses.
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Originally Posted by BlueChair
well its said relapse rates are consistent with other chronic issues like diabetes, asthma, hypertension. around 40-60% . I used to be afraid if my husband relapsed it would be as bad or worse than what we went through, but the doctor said not necessarily because he has learned many cognitive behavioral therapy tools, and we both have more awareness now. Hopefully it would be put under control much sooner.
But I hope I dont have to see a relapse either. Id prefer it all keeps coming up roses.
But I hope I dont have to see a relapse either. Id prefer it all keeps coming up roses.
didn't know that about other chronic issues....
Fortunately, we are both in pretty good health, overall, with no major issues, and really not much minor ones, but both of us pay attention to staying healthy, both physically and mentally. She has done a LOT of improvement over the past few years.
Still, there's work to be done... thx for the good info.
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Originally Posted by March1234
Blue,
didn't know that about other chronic issues....
Fortunately, we are both in pretty good health, overall, with no major issues, and really not much minor ones, but both of us pay attention to staying healthy, both physically and mentally. She has done a LOT of improvement over the past few years.
Still, there's work to be done... thx for the good info.
didn't know that about other chronic issues....
Fortunately, we are both in pretty good health, overall, with no major issues, and really not much minor ones, but both of us pay attention to staying healthy, both physically and mentally. She has done a LOT of improvement over the past few years.
Still, there's work to be done... thx for the good info.
Treatment and Recovery | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)
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Originally Posted by BlueChair
well its said relapse rates are consistent with other chronic issues like diabetes, asthma, hypertension. around 40-60% .
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Originally Posted by BlueChair
This site treats alcoholism like a disease, which I totally disagree with after doing research on this for over 20 years. But, still good info there, I'll take all I can get.
A disease is something you "catch" or "get".... drugs, alcohol, etc, are a CHOSEN ACTIVITY, and are an addiction. There's a difference. You don't treat them the same. That's one reason that I feel AA is a failure with less than 5% success...yes, I've been there many, many times. It just is a poor option.
When the addiction is treated, perhaps with a positive mental attitude, or a better environment, it can be successful. I found this out after spending well over 10K on one treatment that came very close to working. However, none is 100% for sure.
There have been more and better treatments come out there in the past ~5 to 10 years or so.... about the time, I'd just given up. So I didn't follow up.
Now I'm back to learn what I should have kept up with.
Thx again for the info... every bit helps...
So far, so good, and it's excellent. But need to be prepared and be able to get thru the hard times, if alcohol is involved of not.
One HUGE thing I have going for me, is that she is VERY MOTIVATED, and VERY FOCUSED when she want's to do something... Hope she is successful. She is a wonderful lady and certainly worth the effort.
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Cancer is a disease, and you don't "catch" it. Just because you don't believe something is a disease doesn't mean it isn't. Scientists have long thought that there is a difference in brain chemistry in alcoholics vs. non alcoholics. Alcohol does for the alcoholic what it does not do for non alcoholics. The body processes it differently. I am sorry for your wife that you think her addiction is a choice.
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Originally Posted by CarryThatWeight
Cancer is a disease, and you don't "catch" it. Just because you don't believe something is a disease doesn't mean it isn't. Scientists have long thought that there is a difference in brain chemistry in alcoholics vs. non alcoholics. Alcohol does for the alcoholic what it does not do for non alcoholics. The body processes it differently. I am sorry for your wife that you think her addiction is a choice.
Sure, you don't "catch" cancer, but it's also not a choice. It's pretty hard to put a glass of cancer down.
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I disagree with you that it is a choice. Drinking is a chosen activity that most people choose usually young in life. You drink, did you get a note from your doctor before you did saying you weren't an alcoholic so proceed? No one knows they are an alcoholic until they find out they are.
There are no AA statistics March. As an anonymous group AA facilities do not track, keep notes, or follow those who attend. This is widely known and also noted by many researchers who state the same. You don't like it that's fine. It may be a poor FIT for your ex -its saved many people's lives.
I don't think it necessary to agree to a disease model or whatever one might come up with as to why. Its just is. There is no fabulous secret to sobriety. Those who seek it, and want it, are successful. End story. I do believe its and obsession of the mind so undoing the brain is as important, more so, than putting down the glass.
As a comparison to diabetes or high blood pressure in relapse I do not agree. I would say far more people manage their illnesses than alcoholics manage their alcoholism. But lets just say someone "relapses" with HBP (whatever that means). They make an appt with the dr, see him in a couple of days, get a medication and that's it.
That was not my experience with relapse. My husband didn't walk in and say 'hey I have been drinking. I need to go straight to treatment". Hahahaha.
If your wife is so motivated, and very focused, and has been moderating for a while, what are you looking at rehabs for? You are welcome to think whatever you wish, but I see someone (you) who seems to be lacking fundamental understanding of alcoholism or relapse.
There are no AA statistics March. As an anonymous group AA facilities do not track, keep notes, or follow those who attend. This is widely known and also noted by many researchers who state the same. You don't like it that's fine. It may be a poor FIT for your ex -its saved many people's lives.
I don't think it necessary to agree to a disease model or whatever one might come up with as to why. Its just is. There is no fabulous secret to sobriety. Those who seek it, and want it, are successful. End story. I do believe its and obsession of the mind so undoing the brain is as important, more so, than putting down the glass.
As a comparison to diabetes or high blood pressure in relapse I do not agree. I would say far more people manage their illnesses than alcoholics manage their alcoholism. But lets just say someone "relapses" with HBP (whatever that means). They make an appt with the dr, see him in a couple of days, get a medication and that's it.
That was not my experience with relapse. My husband didn't walk in and say 'hey I have been drinking. I need to go straight to treatment". Hahahaha.
If your wife is so motivated, and very focused, and has been moderating for a while, what are you looking at rehabs for? You are welcome to think whatever you wish, but I see someone (you) who seems to be lacking fundamental understanding of alcoholism or relapse.
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Originally Posted by redatlanta
I disagree with you that it is a choice. Drinking is a chosen activity that most people choose usually young in life. You drink, did you get a note from your doctor before you did saying you weren't an alcoholic so proceed? No one knows they are an alcoholic until they find out they are.
There are no AA statistics March. As an anonymous group AA facilities do not track, keep notes, or follow those who attend. This is widely known and also noted by many researchers who state the same. You don't like it that's fine. It may be a poor FIT for your ex -its saved many people's lives.
I don't think it necessary to agree to a disease model or whatever one might come up with as to why. Its just is. There is no fabulous secret to sobriety. Those who seek it, and want it, are successful. End story. I do believe its and obsession of the mind so undoing the brain is as important, more so, than putting down the glass.
As a comparison to diabetes or high blood pressure in relapse I do not agree. I would say far more people manage their illnesses than alcoholics manage their alcoholism. But lets just say someone "relapses" with HBP (whatever that means). They make an appt with the dr, see him in a couple of days, get a medication and that's it.
That was not my experience with relapse. My husband didn't walk in and say 'hey I have been drinking. I need to go straight to treatment". Hahahaha.
If your wife is so motivated, and very focused, and has been moderating for a while, what are you looking at rehabs for? You are welcome to think whatever you wish, but I see someone (you) who seems to be lacking fundamental understanding of alcoholism or relapse.
There are no AA statistics March. As an anonymous group AA facilities do not track, keep notes, or follow those who attend. This is widely known and also noted by many researchers who state the same. You don't like it that's fine. It may be a poor FIT for your ex -its saved many people's lives.
I don't think it necessary to agree to a disease model or whatever one might come up with as to why. Its just is. There is no fabulous secret to sobriety. Those who seek it, and want it, are successful. End story. I do believe its and obsession of the mind so undoing the brain is as important, more so, than putting down the glass.
As a comparison to diabetes or high blood pressure in relapse I do not agree. I would say far more people manage their illnesses than alcoholics manage their alcoholism. But lets just say someone "relapses" with HBP (whatever that means). They make an appt with the dr, see him in a couple of days, get a medication and that's it.
That was not my experience with relapse. My husband didn't walk in and say 'hey I have been drinking. I need to go straight to treatment". Hahahaha.
If your wife is so motivated, and very focused, and has been moderating for a while, what are you looking at rehabs for? You are welcome to think whatever you wish, but I see someone (you) who seems to be lacking fundamental understanding of alcoholism or relapse.
Good points, but we may just have to disagree a bit on this (as many experts also disagree on the same subject).
You DO make a choice to drink. The bottle just doesn't elevate itself and pour itself down your throat. You need to pick it up and drink it. You don't have that choice with a disease. Now, as good discussion would be is to what the motivation is to lift that drink.... or even more so, the next and the next.
Also, there are lots of studies on successes with treatments, including AA, just google it. Some seem reasonably good, others don't.... none indicate much success and neither of the two people I took there got anything out of it. Waste of time.
I'm no expert on alcohol or relapses, only studied it for 20 years..... looking at many choices. And there's a ton out there, and all kinds of different philosophies. Just got to figure out what works, and that's not always easy.
And, I agree with you, success is more of a mind set than anything. And there's many things than can affect the mind and influence it.
Just keeping up with it.
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March, you didn't answer redatlanta's question. If your wife has been doing so well moderating, and she doesn't have a disease, why be concerned? Why have you sent her to rehab? After all, since you're making her environment so pleasant, she should be happy, and therefore will not make the "choice" to drink again.
Also, you didn't grasp the concept of AA. It works IF you work it. Sounds like the people in your experience didn't give it a chance, and therefore didn't work it. There are no statistics, since it is anonymous program. You're less than 5% success rate is simply not the truth, since it can't be measured.
Also, you didn't grasp the concept of AA. It works IF you work it. Sounds like the people in your experience didn't give it a chance, and therefore didn't work it. There are no statistics, since it is anonymous program. You're less than 5% success rate is simply not the truth, since it can't be measured.
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Well actually some diseases you do have a choice. There are all kinds of unhealthy lifestyles that people choose resulting in illness and death. Shall I list them?
You do seem really uneducated about alcoholsm if you want to characterize it as choosing to be one because that is exactly what you are saying when you say "they pick up the drink". The choice is in choosing to get treatment. One could say "they chose not to treat it" and that is an accurate statement. If they don't treat it they WILL drink becaue they have an addiction.
Here are some questions I asked my husband when we first got together:
1) why didn't you just stop?
2). Why did you drink if it made you feel bad?
3). Why did you drink if it made you sick
4). Why did you drink if you were losing your business becaue you were drunk all the time?
5). When the doctor told you if you didn't stop you would die why did you keep drinking?
The list is a mile long. It really took me a long time to comprehend alcoholism. my husband told me something that has always stuck with me.
"You can only understand so much, you will never understand why fully because you aren't an alcoholic"
Touché.
You do seem really uneducated about alcoholsm if you want to characterize it as choosing to be one because that is exactly what you are saying when you say "they pick up the drink". The choice is in choosing to get treatment. One could say "they chose not to treat it" and that is an accurate statement. If they don't treat it they WILL drink becaue they have an addiction.
Here are some questions I asked my husband when we first got together:
1) why didn't you just stop?
2). Why did you drink if it made you feel bad?
3). Why did you drink if it made you sick
4). Why did you drink if you were losing your business becaue you were drunk all the time?
5). When the doctor told you if you didn't stop you would die why did you keep drinking?
The list is a mile long. It really took me a long time to comprehend alcoholism. my husband told me something that has always stuck with me.
"You can only understand so much, you will never understand why fully because you aren't an alcoholic"
Touché.
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Originally Posted by CarryThatWeight
March, you didn't answer redatlanta's question. If your wife has been doing so well moderating, and she doesn't have a disease, why be concerned? Why have you sent her to rehab? After all, since you're making her environment so pleasant, she should be happy, and therefore will not make the "choice" to drink again.
Also, you didn't grasp the concept of AA. It works IF you work it. Sounds like the people in your experience didn't give it a chance, and therefore didn't work it. There are no statistics, since it is anonymous program. You're less than 5% success rate is simply not the truth, since it can't be measured.
Also, you didn't grasp the concept of AA. It works IF you work it. Sounds like the people in your experience didn't give it a chance, and therefore didn't work it. There are no statistics, since it is anonymous program. You're less than 5% success rate is simply not the truth, since it can't be measured.
I don't mean to not answer a question, perhaps I missed it. I'm concerned about EVERY activity, behavior, health issues and more in her life... not just the drinking, as she is for me. The rehab was years ago when it was a serious issue.
Your comment about making her environment so pleasant is ridiculous. I certainly didn't mean to imply I'm God.
We can agree to not discuss AA... I've spend YEARS going over that, and I'm convinced that it's a total failure. If it works for you, fine. It clearly doesn't for most.... and YES, it can be measured. Nothing is secret anymore. We can just take this off the table and no discuss it. Go read some of the posts on the Secular forum.
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Originally Posted by redatlanta
Well actually some diseases you do have a choice. There are all kinds of unhealthy lifestyles that people choose resulting in illness and death. Shall I list them?
You do seem really uneducated about alcoholsm if you want to characterize it as choosing to be one because that is exactly what you are saying when you say "they pick up the drink". The choice is in choosing to get treatment. One could say "they chose not to treat it" and that is an accurate statement. If they don't treat it they WILL drink becaue they have an addiction.
Here are some questions I asked my husband when we first got together:
1) why didn't you just stop?
2). Why did you drink if it made you feel bad?
3). Why did you drink if it made you sick
4). Why did you drink if you were losing your business becaue you were drunk all the time?
5). When the doctor told you if you didn't stop you would die why did you keep drinking?
The list is a mile long. It really took me a long time to comprehend alcoholism. my husband told me something that has always stuck with me.
"You can only understand so much, you will never understand why fully because you aren't an alcoholic"
Touché.
You do seem really uneducated about alcoholsm if you want to characterize it as choosing to be one because that is exactly what you are saying when you say "they pick up the drink". The choice is in choosing to get treatment. One could say "they chose not to treat it" and that is an accurate statement. If they don't treat it they WILL drink becaue they have an addiction.
Here are some questions I asked my husband when we first got together:
1) why didn't you just stop?
2). Why did you drink if it made you feel bad?
3). Why did you drink if it made you sick
4). Why did you drink if you were losing your business becaue you were drunk all the time?
5). When the doctor told you if you didn't stop you would die why did you keep drinking?
The list is a mile long. It really took me a long time to comprehend alcoholism. my husband told me something that has always stuck with me.
"You can only understand so much, you will never understand why fully because you aren't an alcoholic"
Touché.
I hope the best for your husband, and if you need info here, I'm sure you'll get help, as I'm looking for. I'll never fully understand it, but there's NO downside in getting all the info one can get, and then trying to make the best choices. That's true with a lot of things in life.
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The choice may or may not be choosing to get treatment. The lady I'm with right now did not get treatment and has been sober for 16 months.
so I guess i'm confused......IF she is sober, did so on her own, and all is well, then why are you HERE? why would treatment even be a topic of interest? why all the debate??? I HAVE to be missing something key here.........
since you seem to find resonance with more secular methods, you might want to check out that forum as well?
and just for the record, I have seen AMAZING success stories in AA and NA. it works wonderfully well for anyone willing to put in the effort. same as the gym, or learning software code, mountain climbing, etc. it's a program of ACTION. its not like a tanning booth, where you just sit/lie there and get recovery zapped all over you!
so I guess i'm confused......IF she is sober, did so on her own, and all is well, then why are you HERE? why would treatment even be a topic of interest? why all the debate??? I HAVE to be missing something key here.........
since you seem to find resonance with more secular methods, you might want to check out that forum as well?
and just for the record, I have seen AMAZING success stories in AA and NA. it works wonderfully well for anyone willing to put in the effort. same as the gym, or learning software code, mountain climbing, etc. it's a program of ACTION. its not like a tanning booth, where you just sit/lie there and get recovery zapped all over you!
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Originally Posted by March1234
So, if you're so educated about alcoholism, just offer some good info, like some of the others.
You've been given about all the good info there is here. The general consensus of the people on this board who have fought alcoholism seems to be this:
1) Relapse is a crapshoot.
2) Moderation doesn't work.
3) Alcoholics do best with some kind of outside support to maintain sobriety
4) The accepted definition of sober for an alkie is no alcohol period
You mention she was in rehab when it was a serious issue. Alcoholism is always a serious issue whether someone is active or on the wagon. It kills people and tears families to pieces. It can disappear for awhile and then reappear with a vengeance years later.
You have gotten advice from alcoholics and their loved ones. People who have been there done that. Straight from the horses mouth. Straight from the trenches. I'm not sure what else you are looking for. I sincerely hope you find it but I'm afraid you won't.
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Originally Posted by March1234
Fire,
Please understand that manipulation is NOT necessarily a negative tool. We use it all the time for positive things.
You SO may manipulate you to just enjoy a great evening meal with you.... Comes home with a flower, a kiss, and tells you that they are treating you to a nice dinner tonight....
You could manipulate them to go on a trip with you... plan it so it's irresistible. Get them something special to take on the trip... clothes, new bag, whatever. Done that many times, worked well and no drinking...
Please understand that manipulation is NOT necessarily a negative tool. We use it all the time for positive things.
You SO may manipulate you to just enjoy a great evening meal with you.... Comes home with a flower, a kiss, and tells you that they are treating you to a nice dinner tonight....
You could manipulate them to go on a trip with you... plan it so it's irresistible. Get them something special to take on the trip... clothes, new bag, whatever. Done that many times, worked well and no drinking...
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