Praying

Hi all,

My backstory is 20 years with a closet alcoholic narcissist who got meaner, abusive, and morphed into drug use when he finally "quit" drinking. I've experienced my own tortuous denial, ultimate acceptance, then horrible breaking and healing. We are divorced, I have custody, and the kids and I are doing well. (Woo hoo!!! That was so hard to imagine a few years ago!!!)

I learned all about how to value ME, how to break codependency, how to see through denial and determine my boundaries. I'm loving the new me. I know myself.

Now I find myself faced with an alcoholic who has quit a few times, but is still in denial that he's an A. However, when confronted about his recent "slip", he quit again and says he can't/won't drink again. He has NONE of the abusive, manipulative traits I'm used to with addiction (not the tiniest bit), but it troubles me that he doesn't see it for what it is. I've gently pushed AA, since his method of quitting hasn't stuck, and I think he's still in major denial. I know I can't force him to see it, so my tendency is to get out of the way and leave him to live his life.

However, I love him, and I care for him deeply. He is a kind, generous man, and a good father to his kids (when sober, of course). Friends and family tell me he needs tough love and I should push him harder. I'm wondering if anyone has found themselves post-alanon stepping back too much. Am I so happy understanding my boundaries and not trying to change or control that I'm not giving ENOUGH support? That I will just walk away without trying at all? I know that's "okay", I'm just curious if anyone has experience they can share.

Thanks...

maybear

I have found that often friends and family have their own issues and their advice is neither objective or helpful a lot of the time.

Tough love isn't going to change him, but it will probably wear you out.

It's perfectly ok to love him, but whether you can or want to be in a relationship with him is another story. There isn't any way you can change him with 'love' anyway so if you walk away, there isn't any reason to feel guilty.

It's good he isn't abusive, but it's still emotionally draining and damaging living with an alcoholic so don't settle just because you aren't experiencing a certain level of terribleness.

amy55

I am seriously considering this question. See, I always feel like a fraud coming to this section of SR. I joined here because I'm an alcoholic. The marriage I just got out of was abusive, (yes, he was an alcoholic, but I blame it more on the abuse.)

After being thru hell and back in that marriage, I don't know. Perhaps I would have settled for a no harm doing alcoholic. I think if my ex wasn't abusive I might have stayed with him.

The thing is he was also emotionally distant. At times I felt like I didn't even exist to him, and at times he wouldn't get his hands off of me.

Alcoholics are not capable of love. I say this because I am an alcoholic. I drank my feelings away. I didn't feel that I had a choice, even though I did have a choice.

Are you really OK with an emotionally devoid relationship? I know it's easier then your first marriage, but marriages shouldn't be sentences. Marriage should be 2 people together who love each other and you feel better and do better because of this union. (I know, not the right words, but I think you . understand what I mean) . Marriage or being with some one shouldn't be fireworks in the sky every night. It should be a mutual respect for each other, and not waiting around for someone to get their drunk a$$ off the couch to do things. That's not life.

(((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))
amy

CodeJob

Hi Praying!

Don't get legally tied. Don't have kids with him. Keep separate households. Those would be my safety checks from a second marriage with an A.

It is not your job to push him or save him from himself a la 'tough love.'

My RAH still has denial sober 25 months. He may never work out his true issues completely. You cannot make them plumb their issues and resolve them... It is very hard some days not to smack him on the head. This is why I reccomend your own abode.

Why oh why did you fall for another A? That is what I find intriguing.

AnvilheadII

we can't support was does not exist. YOU think he's an alcoholic...he does NOT. YOU think he needs AA or some other type of "recovery" program. HE does not.

your prior experience with addiction doesn't mean get to try to use that experience to CHANGE this person you deem to have an addiction. its about being SELF AWARE and steering clear of going down the same road, again, with yet another addict or alcoholic and the frustration of wanting them to change, to see the light. its not our job to FIX others.

I will just walk away without trying at all?


trying to do what exactly? get this one to stop drinking? to be the sober guy you want? that is a lot easier when you choose someone who does not HAVE issues with drinking to begin with.

hopeful4

His actions over the long term will show who he is, believe that.

Praying

Thank you guys. And hello, CJ!

Haha, trust me, I wondered that myself. I don't believe it's because I needed it or sought it. I passed on many troubled men who were interested. Dated a few and instead of being hurt, was totally proud that I could sense the dysfunction and get out. Dated one that was kind and good and just not my match.

I met this one inadvertently. This man matches my parenting style, my life views, my spiritual beliefs, and is a very gentle soul. He has many signs of an emotionally well person (and no, I'm not drinking the kool aid). He has been a great partner--with the exception of the "slip". He hadn't been drinking when I met him and "just didn't drink". He was honest that he historically drank to cope and thought he needed to stop. He had completed a men's group program that was really meaningful for him. I was honest about my situation and that addiction was a deal-breaker for me.

Interestingly, even with alcohol, he doesn't have a manipulative bone in his body. He answered all direct questions honestly. He quit immediately after I confronted him. Complete attitude shift, acceptance of wrong, etc. Hasn't had another drink in over a month. I believe that.

I had a good bit of fun being angry with myself for "missing" this and getting involved. He just "didn't drink"...until he did. He's in his forties, and still a happy drunk. But he does check out and pass out and can't stop. And I won't live with that as my partner.

I was incredibly calm.

I told him all of this. I told him about the partner I deserve, and that it's a long road, and that I am not looking to change him if this is his path. I told him how angry I was that he's an A and knew this was an issue for me...but also that, since he doesn't believe he's an A, he didn't really lie to me (since he lies to himself first in denial) so I can't be angry. But while I forgive that, it scares me. I told him all of this kindly, but directly. He swears he won't drink again, and doesn't understand why I don't believe him. (I'm sorry that I don't, but if he changes nothing in his thinking, the pattern will repeat.)

I asked why this time is different and he said- I don't want to lose you. I said that's not enough.

I was clear that it's not an ultimatum. He'd do anything I "forced" him to do, but I know I can't truly make him drop his denial. Dropping that is really the only way he can recover. Willpower can create long bouts of sobriety, but the progression will get worse and he'll resent me over time. (He doesn't believe that he'll resent me. I do.) I told him all of this as well.

He saw a counselor a few weeks ago at my request who told him he could choose to face this now or wait two or three more relationships before he decides to. He told me last night he scheduled 6 sessions with the counselor (the counselor also requires AA), and he's going to an AA meeting tonight.

I guess I haven't experienced a partner who appears to be willing to do anything. I know my fears of the past are huge--but I also know I am never going to live that life again, so it really shouldn't be a fear. I will leave.

As a human, doesn't he need some compassion? I know I can't love him enough to fix him, but doesn't supportive love help someone who is helping themselves?

I have detached somewhat and he feels it. I told him that emotionally it's where I need to be right now. I'm honoring myself and will not sacrifice that again...I just don't want it to feel like "punishment". One slip and you're out...

thanks for listening

Praying

Anvil, good points. I told him I almost posted here weeks ago, but I knew what everyone would say, and it matched what I knew in my heart.

I think by "trying" I mean not immediately leaving the relationship because he "failed", and giving him some time to determine his path. (Not a decade.)

I look back at the supportive actions I gave my horrific ex, and it was so much more. This is a GOOD man, and I'm all--nope, sorry, I don't DO addiction anymore! See ya!

AlcSis

@Praying

You are listening to your intuition. And you are using the knowledge you know about alcoholism/addiction. And you are remembering previous history with someone with alcoholism/addictions issues.

And you are a kind and loving person, also listening to your heart.

All I can tell you is that it appears you have Looked at the "Big Picture" - and put all the pieces together.

And it appears that you have asked (in your own way) for guidance from your HP and you have been given an answer that is the best for you.

It appears you have received some "wisdom" from your HP and are listening to it.

And remember; you can always change your mind. As more shall be revealed......(probably/possibly)

Good job!

dandylion

Praying.....can you give an additional piece of information....if you would?

You say that he has quit several times.....what is the longest time he has ever stayed stopped?

dandylion

Refiner

I'm reading this as you are feeling GUILT about not supporting and encouraging him enough to get help for his alcoholism he's in denial about? I think that's what needs examining. Those ppl saying he just needs your "tough love" have no knowledge of addiction, either.

Sungrl

Asked nicely ...............

Why in the world would you want to get involved with another alcoholic and potentially go through hell A SECOND TIME??

Personally that is a risk I would NEVER take.

And come on, you know better, tough love isn't going to fix him.

Praying

Dandylion, this last time was about 8 months. I think he's done stretches of several months close to a year, but I don't think he's made it a full year before. This last time he started again because he assumed he had "beat" it. He wasn't trying to drown problems, etc. and assumed it would be fine. He has no issues with work, etc., and "planned" his drinking to have minimal impact.

When he said he knew he could never drink again a few nights ago, I asked him "why?"

He said because he saw the progression that's taken place and it frightened him. I do believe that.

He truly wants to stop drinking, but doesn't want to admit it's a problem. I know addiction is a baffling thing, but I told him- we all KNOW it. Your parents, your friends, your kids. Denying it is just plain silly, and it's only to yourself. We all know what we see. You can choose to stay in your denial, but it doesn't work on us in the real world.

He asked me about the 12 steps since I worked through them with alanon. I told him about them but said- That very first step is admitting life has become unmanageable and you can't control it. And you can't do eleven steps.

Praying

Sungrl, I hear you. That's why I was a bit angry with myself for not seeing this sooner. I wouldn't. I said I would never. But in addition to loving him, I adore his kids, his parents, his family...and my boys adore him as well. He's been a huge part of restoring their faith in father figures. In hindsight I obviously shouldn't have gotten that far into this. Trust me, I know that.

But growing a relationship means extending to friends and family, and taking risks. Dating him in a vacuum wouldn't have gotten me this knowledge. I've thought a lot about that. I had to get this far to get to this place.

It's where I go from here that's a struggle. Part of me is really ticked off that I "have to deal with this"...and the other part of me laughs and says "you don't and you know it"! Then another part says--just wait, watch and see, because if he's the man you think he is, he'll show it. So there I stand at the moment. No need to do anything today. But read, pray, think, and laugh and live...and take any suggestions to heart.

I want to make sure I don't gloss over this just because I want to. But I don't want to be overly harsh toward our relationship either.

By the way, I was happy single. I'd be happy single again, so that's not a fear. I am an awesome single woman!!!

AnvilheadII

praying, just some of the things i'm seeing:

However, when confronted about his recent "slip", he quit again

I've gently pushed AA, since his method of quitting hasn't stuck

He quit immediately after I confronted him. Complete attitude shift, acceptance of wrong, etc. Hasn't had another drink in over a month. I believe that.

He saw a counselor a few weeks ago at my request

I guess I haven't experienced a partner who appears to be willing to do anything

and giving him some time to determine his path


I know addiction is a baffling thing, but I told him- we all KNOW it


He asked me about the 12 steps since I worked through them with alanon

do you see how you are kinda driving the bus here? YOU confronted him, YOU gave him the ultimatum of sorts, YOU have suggested AA, YOU requested he see a counselor. YOu told him he is in denial.

and part of you is "pleased" or amazed that he is doing WHAT YOU WANT HIM TO.

right now this part of this "relationship" sounds more like a very long 12th step call....or an intervention of sorts. just be careful what ROLE you take here.....maybe now is good time to step way back and truly let HIM sort this out.

dandylion

Praying.......I don't think he "wants" to quit drinking. It sounds like he wants to do controlled drinking.....and still wishes with all his heart that he can do that.

He is not saying that he wants to do anything that is required in order to live a sober life...for the rest of his life. He has got the alcoholic voice in his head talking to him.....

Praying....you know the deal with alcoholism...even if he doesn't. You have to work with what you KNOW. You know what the natural progression of the disease is...unless it is arrested by total abstainence.

As hard as it is for a person to admit---especially after investing so much of yourself into their life (as you have with him)......the only way not to suffer alcoholism in your home (if you recognize it).....is not to invite it in, in the first place.........
If you have knowledge, one cannot ever claim the victim role.....and, you can't get mad at h im if he disappoints you.......

Now, I know very well that YOU, Praying, know that you are facing some verrrry hard decisions.
Honey, it is going to hurt no matter which decision you make.

Just make the RIGHT decision......so that the pain you will experience will be short-term pain for long-term gain.

(of course, he has his own decisions to make----I agree with anvil that you ought to let him wrestle with it).

dandylion

CodeJob

I think there's a reason you hesitated to post here and also sort of left out how his sobriety periods are counted in months, not years. The news is not good for a long term relationship with this man without mistress alcohol riding shot gun.

Be careful Praying. Take care of you.

Praying

That is what my heart believes. If any newcomer reads this thread- these guys are dead on in their warnings, they're not being harsh. I don't like it. But I know it.

CJ, what's interesting his that I don't actually KNOW his longest stretch. I didn't ask because I don't think it's relevant. It's not long enough. But you're correct that I hesitated to post, and to keep posting details, because on paper it just makes me feel like a moron!!! (Wait till you hear today's revelation.)

But it's excellent to see and exactly why I need to. I trust you all. Anvil, thanks for putting all of those lines together. It is sort of a huge intervention effort before I step back. But you are correct that it's me, me, me.

It's the kids. I realized tonight that if he had no children I'd back way up right now and let him go from here. I feel an ownership toward his four kids. Walking away from them makes me sick. Their mother has mental health issues and is cold as ice. They are amazing kids. I can't bear to let their childhoods go by without kicking dad in the pants. I did tell him that if he was going to be passed out and drunk, not only was I out, but I would tell everyone the truth even if it meant he lost the kids to their mother. I feel THAT strongly about leaving kids in a single-parent addictive home. They need an advocate. And I would do it, it is not a threat. Don't mess with kids.

I know, here I go thinking I'm supposed to save the world. At the end of the day, I am in charge of ME and my two boys. My boys have me. His...need him. Or someone. But that may not be me. I KNOW that. But I also have to be ready to live with that decision if I walk away. That is very very hard.

He asked me to go to an AA meeting with him tonight. Topic was "powerlessness". Touché. I'm not planning on going to more of them, he just wanted a companion as he "broke the ice". Funny, he said they were all so depressed. I thought they were all just serious, focused, and grateful to be there. It's serious business.

I decided today to let him know that "we" are in line WAY after his drinking (if ever), and that there is nothing to work on or focus on in "us" at this time. I am backing out for him to focus on his mistress in whichever way he chooses. BUT, I'm not disappearing from the scene yet because of these kids. I will let it evolve. No promises.

I know how these things evolve. I'll probably be back looking for more honest feedback sooner than I think. In the meantime I will read other posts and keep on... Praying

I really am grateful for your feedback. Keep me honest.

CodeJob

Powerlessness? As usual an apt message for both sides of the relationship from the HP, eh?

maybear

Just a thought... With the kids, if he is neglectful of them because of his drinking, it would probably be more productive to let the appropriate authorities know instead of telling everyone and/or letting the mum take them. I don't know if he is a bad enough parent to warrant that though. Might be a bit extreme.

Poor kids... I can see why it's hard for you to disconnect from him when you are very worried about them.