How powerful is denial?

Old 04-15-2015, 06:40 PM
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sfs
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How powerful is denial?

Hi all,

Found this forum looking into resources for those living with alcoholic spouses, because I'm severely concerned about my wife, but also don't know if I'm interpreting the signs right.

We're recently married, though have been together for over 8 years and have lived together for nearly 5. My wife's always been a drinker since college (and so was I--it was college), but most people let that go after they pass 25 or so, right? We're almost thirty, and Friday night bingeing has become almost ritualistic. For the longest time, I didn't think it was anything to be concerned about. I never go over the recommended weekly limit for men (14/wk, I believe), and if I go over the recommended daily limit (5/day? I think? 4/day, maybe), it's maybe by 1 drink, one day a week. I rarely, if ever drink during the week, and then it'll be a beer with dinner and then I'm done.

My wife keeps pace with me on the weekends, but often I've noticed her drinking during the week, too, more than just one, sometimes every other evening. I get up early to work so I'm asleep before midnight every weeknight. She's started staying up much later regularly. She didn't used to do this. I don't know if or what or how much she's drinking after I go to bed, but on occasion I've woken up in the wee hours of the morning (2-4:30 AM) to find her asleep on the couch, sometimes with a half-finished drink on the coffee table. I was away recently, and got drunk texts from her, so she's clearly drinking alone, but when I asked her about those upon return, she didn't remember sending them.

She's had gastrointestinal problems for a long time. They've gotten worse recently. Her hangovers have gotten worse, it seems. Whenever I've hinted that maybe she overdid it, she either laughs it off or glares at me because I didn't have a hangover (I typically drink a full bottle of water between every drink--also, I know when to stop, and I work out regularly). I exercise at home almost every day, hit the gym twice a week, can repeatedly bench press 145, repeatedly squat body weight plus an additional 145, incline press 105, ~8 minute mile, etc. She has not done serious exercise for over a year at this point, I think, maybe 2, though she consistently expresses unhappiness with her physical condition. She's struggled with anxiety and depression, which she's on medication for, and as I understand it, she shouldn't be having alcohol with her meds at all. She insists she never takes them together, but the drug is in her system when she drinks.

I realize I am to blame for this situation, as I drink with her, and for the past years, I'm the one who's bought all the damn booze. I have nothing against social drinking, but this isn't healthy, for her or me, and I need to get a handle on this before I start to develop an alcohol problem. I buy good quality liquor, and I'm ready to pour all those bottles down the drain if that's what it takes.

I and members of our families are very concerned that her drinking is affecting her health and that it's increasing. I brought this up with her a couple of days ago when she decided she wanted to have a drink.

We haven't really spoken for about 48 hours at this point. She's been sleeping in the spare room.

I told her I was worried she was using alcohol as a crutch. She told me "If I were using it as a crutch, I would never be sober."

Once, it seemed like there might have been a bit of a thaw, but it became clear she wanted me to pretend like I never said anything. "If you're expecting a teary confession of the problem, you won't get it."

She's "so mad [she] could spit." And one more push will "make [her] want to become a drunk." "I'll do it. I have no qualms," she said.

Is this denial? She is very convincing, and she has me occasionally wondering if I'm wrong. I've done a lot of reading on the topic, and what I've seen in her seems like either a "functioning alcoholic," or an "almost alcoholic," a la Doyle and Nowinski. But I have no idea. Am I in the wrong here? Am I imagining things? What if this isn't an abnormal pattern? That can't be; it's not healthy.

I'm tired. I thought maybe this would calm down after we got married (foolish, I know). I just want some shred of the person I met years ago. There are so many things I want to do in our life together, but I just can't, with the condition she's in.

I'm sorry for the novel, but some of what I've read on this forum has been quite insightful, and I need to know if I'm even interpreting things correctly.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:22 PM
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Welcome and glad you have found us!

Alcoholism is a disease of denial. You see if she admits she has a problem then she has to do something about it. Its not just other people they deny it to - its can also be a battle within themselves to "prove" they don't have a problem.

The behavior your wife exhibited when you confronted her I would call blame-shifting (its your fault not mine) and gas lighting (I don't have a problem you are the one with the problem you are crazy) common ploys of addicts.

P.S. Threatening to become an alcoholic is a unique threat I have never heard that one before.

Whether or not she is an alcoholic I don't know. What she does have is a problem with it, you have a problem with and the family has a problem with it. Her reaction is not a good sign at all. Alcoholics will protect the alcohol first.

You did not cause this. If your purchasing alcohol resulted in alcoholism you would be one yourself.

Stick around and read as much as you can. Post often. Sorry for what you are going through it sucks.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:36 PM
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Hi and welcome!! If you are looking for one of us to tell you that your wife is an alcoholic- we cannot answer this. The signs seem familiar in the earlier stages and I'd like to say that there is a way to prevent alcoholism to happen.

You will learn a lot here, and I assure this because I was in your shoes just some time ago. I was trying to cling on to my alcoholic ex and prevent him from drinking. What you find over time is that it IS EXHAUSTING. I see that you say that you are tired already.

Try this for tired- I spent all of our days, planning weeks and weeks ahead on paper, what we would do for the day and evenings and revolved them around ANYTHING BUT alcohol. This is not healthy. Eventually you two may find yourself coming up with creative ways to help/control/cure/save..(insert adjective here) to prevent her from drinking.

Hugs, sfs..big hugs. I am so sorry to hear this. YOU didn't cause this and you can't control it either. Stick around like redatlanta said. Read, read, read all of the stickies too at the top of the Friends and Family forum page. You will gain some valuable knowledge on the illness of alcoholism itself.

But don't forget to find ways to take care of yourself also.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:40 PM
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Welcome! You are in the right place. There is a great deal going on there. First, none of this is your fault, but we can enable at the same time being concerned. So yes, take one for the team and stop brining booze home. That does not mean she will not get it herself, it means that you will no longer help her. And if you are concerned about your own levels of drinking, may I suggest you attend a meeting dedicated to recovery? There are many AA, SMART Recovery, private therapist. Even if you aren't an A yourself. Living with her has obviously effected you enough for you to reach out. Start reading every post that you can in this forum and the Alcoholics Forum. You will get an overview of what it's like from people living with addiction. For you there may be al a non or professionals EDUCATED in addiction. Most lay counselors such as pastors aren't. Either way, you must get yourself together. Put on your oxygen mask before you can help her.

The problem is not some mathematical formula for how much one should drink, water in between drinks or not or if they only drink on the weekends or if they drink high end liquor or six packs on sale. The issue is the drinking destroying the persons life, health and relationships. The issue is that the drinking is getting worse and the person can no longer function or control themselves when it comes to alcohol consumption. The first step in A A calls this "unmanageable". That my dear is the understatement of the year! Alcohol will over take a person to the exclusion of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in their life. Her denial is the addiction protecting itself. That will get stronger. The more the addiction takes hold the more veraciously it will assert itself against any that stands in its way. It will deny, lie and manipulate to survive. I know that sounds dramatic, more like advice for a priest going to an exorcism, but it's close. Her habits, her moods, her personality will begin to shift more and more until one day you think, "who are you?"

Please see a dr. About the depression and meds. Many A's have underlying mental health issues that also need to be addressed. Sleeping 48 hrs is not normal either. My ex could do that, but he also had a pill and H issue. So yes, the meds and booze may be mixing. If she can no longer remember things after drinking and passing out, that is called a blackout. It is very serious, it is abnormal and you are very right to be concerned.

If you are able to have a warm loving conversation with her when she is in her right mind. You may want to express how really concerned you are now. She may or may not be receptive, either way, you must do all that you can to protect your health and well being. Keep coming here! Keep reading and asking questions! Every path has been walked by the members of this group. Nothing you say will be wholly unfamiliar or shock, trust me. Good luck!
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:44 PM
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Only she can decide if she is an alcoholic. At this point, she apparently doesn't want you getting involved with her drinking habits. I understand you are naturally concerned. But you need to allow her to draw her own conclusions about her drinking. You? Drink socially. College days are over. Getting trashed is for the frat boys.

Denial? It was, and is, powerful beyond my comprehension. I recall being in the emergency room in 2007 with fractured ribs. The ER was backed up. I laid on a gurney for about four hours. Meanwhile, my AH (who hadn't had a drink that day) started to shake, sweat, and eventually ran to the bathroom to puke.

When he returned, I said to him, "Do you realize you are in withdrawal?" His reply, "Perhaps ..." This guy was in REALLY bad shape.

His denial took him to the grave. When I walked through the apartment he lived the last 9 weeks of his life, I saw horrible devastation. But y'know what? He never actually could admit alcoholism was the root of his problems.

He went to a PTSD support group. He went to a counselor for individual therapy for his depression/anxiety. When he was terminated from his last job, he told his employer he suffered from "debilitating depression."

Perhaps he did. But his alcoholism was his undoing.

And I've witnessed denial of epic proportions. Right into the grave.

There was nothing I could do, and I almost drove myself crazy doing everything and anything. In the end, I had to step back and respect my husband's right to drink himself into the grave.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Duckygirl1 View Post
Sleeping 48 hrs is not normal either.
I should have been clearer. She hasn't been asleep in the spare room FOR 48 hrs, but over the last two days, the two of us haven't slept in the same room when we've slept (normally we share a bed--I'm just getting the silent treatment right now). Sorry about that.

Otherwise, thank you all for the welcome and the kind words. My hope is I've caught this early enough to be reversible.
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Old 04-15-2015, 08:04 PM
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She hasn't touched the alcohol we have in the house since I first confronted her about this, thus adding to my complex of having possibly accused her of a problem she doesn't have. Bottles of gin, vodka, and scotch, all untouched since last Friday. But all the signs are there, otherwise. She CAN stop drinking, she just apparently, under normal circumstances, chooses not to. I keep going back and forth on this one, hoping I haven't irreversibly messed up my marriage.
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Old 04-15-2015, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sfs View Post
My hope is I've caught this early enough to be reversible.
Don't take this the wrong way but.. That was my hope too... Hugs to you.
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Old 04-15-2015, 08:10 PM
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Don't be so sure she doesn't have a secret stash. I used to make a big show of leaving the big bottle sitting out, while I had the handy-dandy little half-pints stashed in convenient locations. My second husband used to keep a box of wine in the trunk of his car and go down and sneak drink.

I'm not suggesting you search for bottles--it will become apparent soon enough if she is drinking.
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Old 04-15-2015, 09:01 PM
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Hi sfs, although no-one can say your wife is or isn't an A, it doesn't look hopeful. I can give you some perspective as a sober A because as you described her reaction to you confronting her, I could easily imagine that was me.

As you become more dependent on alcohol, you want to protect your ability to drink over almost everything else. You've confronted her. She could admit she needs to drink, or she could be hostile, defensive and basically try to scare you into never raising it again.
Right now she's either not drinking but 'white knuckling' (hence her bad mood), or she's drinking secretly. I'm sure you can tell which is which.

You have a problem with the way she's heading, and your instincts are spot on. Your marriage will be under constant strain if she won't change, and isn't willing to seek help, or respond to your concerns.

If you have the determination and courage to push through her initial denial & hostility; if you can hold on to real concern for her and your marriage without confrontation but not backing down either, you might get through.

Her current behaviour is designed to deter you from ever raising the subject again, but if you don't gently persist it'll get swept under the carpet. Not saying it will change her, you can't force that, but she might feel safer to admit that, yes, her drinking is becoming uncontrollable.
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Old 04-16-2015, 08:24 AM
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I told her I was worried she was using alcohol as a crutch. She told me "If I were using it as a crutch, I would never be sober."


Your wife appears to be miserable, living in her own skin.

We could have the talk of what came first, the chicken or the egg, ( booze or depression/anxiety), but it would be fruitless as this is her issue, and hers alone to address.

So it there anything she is willing to do, to help herself ?

Sorry to say, there isn't much you can do for a person who will not acknowledge there is a problem.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:09 AM
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I don't doubt she is miserable. When sober, she can, with some effort, behave happily and be social (I say with some effort b/c we're both introverted by nature, me much less so but only b/c I've worked at it for years). But when drunk, maybe 8 times out of 10, she ends up in tears. "You hate me," (one time she said this b/c I told her her hands were cold), "You should have married someone else," and of course, "In vino veritas."

The depression/anxiety came first. She was diagnosed years before she ever tasted alcohol. She has a lot of lingering issues from childhood/adolescence (no abuse or anything like that, but a family member made one HUGE mistake that's had continuing repercussions). She went to counseling about a year and a half ago during a particularly bad spell, but since she got on new meds, she won't go back, says it's a financial issue (I have money; I'm willing to pay--we always seem to have time and money for booze, after all).

She denies there's a problem, then denies she's denying it, and knows that I won't believe her denying of it because denial is a sign you have a problem. You can't get anything past her subtly. She's too smart.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:26 AM
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You just have to stick at it sfs and not take her denials at face value. What's your bottom line? Are you going to live with her drinking forever? If she's determined not to seek treatment, and you can't persuade her with love and understanding, you may have to consider the future of your marriage.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:30 AM
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I find zero truth in the "woe is me" rantings of an intoxicated person.

First of all their mind is being controlled by a drug, there is not any normal or rational thought process. Not to mention, addicts LIE, Alcohol is a depressant, so any anxiety or depression is only magnified 1000x, which of course increases the tears, and drama, drama, and more drama.......

Personally, I could not stay in the room with someone having a self inflicted pity party of this nature. They brought it on themselves, they can figure it out themselves too. Or sleep it off and not ever remember saying it. (XA was the king of blackouts)

But in the meantime, here you are riding the crazytrain, being all stressed out, as the meaningless ranting and raving DOES have negative effects on our well being.

She can choose to/ and has the right to live in denial. She is an adult and will live her life as she sees fit.

Sure hope you take this opportunity to take better care of YOU!
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelingGreat View Post
You just have to stick at it sfs and not take her denials at face value. What's your bottom line? Are you going to live with her drinking forever? If she's determined not to seek treatment, and you can't persuade her with love and understanding, you may have to consider the future of your marriage.
I can't live with this forever. I want to have kids, own a house, travel to faraway places, and I cannot/will not do any of those with someone who abuses alcohol and is unwilling to get better.

I convinced her to seek treatment for her depression, but that was after months of trying to break through a wall. A wall is up again, and I have to bust it down somehow.

Thanks for all the support, Internet strangers. I admit I'm kind of using this as a journal so I don't forget anything. I'm a scientist--my instinct is to gather all the data I can.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:52 AM
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I am sorry you find yourself in the situation you do. The denial will continue until she decides she has a problem. She is furious because you are coming in between her lover, best friend, higher power, and confidant. It may be hard to hear this but you are only her husband and if she has to make a choice it may be alcohol.

I ended up in a hospital because I detoxed when I did not drink enough. Even then I really did not see hospitalization and drinking a fifth of Vodka a day for years as a huge problem. Problem yes, huge problem no.

You may wish to quit drinking and act as a role model. I would also recommend going to ALANON to learn how to deal with the denial and acting out.
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:15 AM
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Hi, and welcome to the group. Sorry you find yourself here. There are certainly lots of red flags to be concerned about. You really are not to blame for your wife's choices, drinking, condition, illnesses etc. This is not something that you have control over or that you can prevent or reverse. There is a lot of good information in the stickie's above especially under Classic Reading. There are also support programs that you might get a lot out of. Al-anon or SMART recovery and there are others.

Originally Posted by sfs View Post
I'm tired. I thought maybe this would calm down after we got married (foolish, I know). I just want some shred of the person I met years ago. There are so many things I want to do in our life together, but I just can't, with the condition she's in.
This is the bottom line really isn't it? The question of whether or not she is an alcoholic is hers to answer but this is your reality. If you can not have the life you want with this person - that is the bottom line.

Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post
Welcome and glad you have found us!

Alcoholism is a disease of denial. You see if she admits she has a problem then she has to do something about it. Its not just other people they deny it to - its can also be a battle within themselves to "prove" they don't have a problem.
Yes, and the alcoholic isn't the only one that can be living in denial.

I was living a very similar life to you when I was 30. My husband was surely an alcoholic before I met him, when I married him, for the 16 years we were together, and the day I divorced him. I was in denial for most of that time but had I admitted it, I would have had to deal with it. I wanted the life we dreamed about and my reality pretty much blew that out of the water - so I denied it and carried on - for years. It nearly destroyed me, and him, and I now have four children with a legacy that no one would wish upon a child.

I'm not suggesting you leave. That is a personal decision for each person to make. I'm suggesting you focus on yourself and do not deny your reality. There are support groups and/or counselors for you and they are, IMO, vital in managing difficult realities such as this.

Keep posting and reading here. SR has been so so helpful to me over the years.
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by sfs View Post
I can't live with this forever. I want to have kids, own a house, travel to faraway places, and I cannot/will not do any of those with someone who abuses alcohol and is unwilling to get better.

I convinced her to seek treatment for her depression, but that was after months of trying to break through a wall. A wall is up again, and I have to bust it down somehow.

Thanks for all the support, Internet strangers. I admit I'm kind of using this as a journal so I don't forget anything. I'm a scientist--my instinct is to gather all the data I can.

Yes - and please remember - the choices and actions that you have control over are the choices you make, and the actions you take.

I, and most of the people here, have spent years trying to get our partners to change or change ourselves so that we are somehow OK with the unacceptable situations we are in. It simply does not work.

You do the thing that is right for you. One day at a time.
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Old 04-16-2015, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sfs View Post
She hasn't touched the alcohol we have in the house since I first confronted her about this, thus adding to my complex of having possibly accused her of a problem she doesn't have. Bottles of gin, vodka, and scotch, all untouched since last Friday. But all the signs are there, otherwise. She CAN stop drinking, she just apparently, under normal circumstances, chooses not to. I keep going back and forth on this one, hoping I haven't irreversibly messed up my marriage.
I could stop drinking anytime I wanted and did more times than I can count. The problem was staying stopped. Each time I stopped within a month I was right back to problem drinking that was as bad or worse.

At the end I couldn't stop because I was physically dependent but I was an alcoholic long before that.
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:56 AM
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Well, she slept in the spare room the past two nights again. Today she's going over to her mom's and spending the night there. Says she needs to "figure things out" and "figure out myself." I guess the end result of that could be "I have a problem" or "I want a divorce." I really don't know. Good news is, her mom keeps no alcohol at her place whatsoever, so she won't be drinking, even though it's Friday. At this point she's been sober for a week, as far as I can tell, and I'm the one who's called her a problem drinker.

When she comes home, I'll be here. If she doesn't... I'll still be here.

Well, gotta go to work.
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