carmen303

Thanks everyone and yes, Amberly, what you said sounds more like what I'm trying to say.

I'm not trying to control him. Like you, I'm pretty old fashioned and traditional. I want to build a foundation, see what's possible, without sex messing with our emotions; we've already been doing this and it pushes all the issues (that need to be worked on) aside. We need to see if this can work practically.

It makes my question complicated when I explain all the concerns I have. I'm actually not asking about his alcoholism, I'm asking to be reminded of what's normal.

To me, I feel like pushing away if sex is expected or when my partner is crude, flashing me, etc....doesn't put me in the mood. For me, it should evolve naturally, because I feel close to him, as a result of loving day together, without expectation or pressure, or as a result of feeling like we are talking about solid foundations for the future...not just living in the here and now. Yes, he wants to marry, but there's no concrete plan as to how we'd survive, where we'd live. I don't feel secure. He's in financial troubles right now too. I also connect sex with him overdrinking.

Instead, he's making me feel guilty, that if I love him (which I do) we should be doing this. Having great conversations on the phone, laughing, supporting each other emotionally all make me feel close, but we never spend time together (when he doesn't expect it), so we just don't see each other.

So, to sum it up, in a traditional relationship, where you are wishing for a marriage/future partner, is it normal for a guy to expect sex, when you want to build something solid together (and there are concerns and problems to iron out). Would most men understand this? or just get mad? Would they be okay with working this out without this type pressure.

carmen303

p.s. to clarify things, he's a grown, mature guy. Like me, he is loyal and committed. He's not looking to run around or anything. That is one thing we have in common...if we could just get on the same page with the rest of this.

ladyscribbler

There is no "same page" here. A non alcoholic can never understand the compulsion of the disease, and an alcoholic cannot understand being able to take it or leave it.
Alcoholism is not a relationship issue that can be handled with love and support by the partner. It's a disease that the sufferer has to work aggressively to combat by living in sobriety and working a program.
The disconnect here is that you think this issue is fixable and he has no desire to fix it. If he wanted to stop drinking he would be taking concrete steps for recovery, not running his mouth about working on it to keep you hooked.

ETA- not to sound unkind, but I can see the dookie fumes wafting off this dude over the Internet. If he's "not looking to run around", I doubt it's because of his sterling character. More like any woman meeting him sees LOSER written on his forehead in neon lights.
I used to be big on seeing men's potential and it kept me in a lot of crappy relationships. I couldn't fix any of them, I had to fix myself.

atalose

Anytime anyone uses the word “potential” regarding a new relationship it’s a giant red flag!!

Knowing he’s an alcoholic and you still want to proceed with a relationship possible marriage is a big red flag!!

Already having difficulties about trying to build a foundation is a big red flag!!

Someone who makes you feel guilt already in a relationship is a big red flag!!

Someone who makes you feel pressured is a big red flag!!

He’s an alcoholic who knows it and says “he’s working on it” is a big red flag!!

You seem to be trying to fit the round peg into the square hole and hoping it all becomes a “normal” healthy relationship potential marriage. Alcoholics don’t have relationships, they take hostages. The only real committed relationship they have is with their bottle.

Rather than asking if his behavior is normal or not for an alcoholic, I think you should be asking yourself why this guy has YOU so hung up with only a “potential” relationship. Knowing and seeing all the red flags what inside of you says “yeah, this is the guy for me?”.

tomsteve

Sort of reminds me of me at one time, which I'd call it normal if childish, selfish, self pity behavior is normal.
But I don't consider it normal today for an adult that understands what is involved Ina true, loving relationship.

If he's like the old me,which it reads like, and ya keep up the relationship, yer going to be taken hostage, the ransom will always be upped, yer going to be blamed for everything and dragged down with him.
If you stay with him you might have to get used to circus music playing in your head.

carmen303

Atalose, I don't mentioned the good things, because I don't need help with that. there is a lot of good. He sort of has 2 sides. I just want him to stay as the one I love and for the other stuff to disappear. I'm like a person on a deserted island; there really isn't anyone else out there for me. I sometimes feel that I either need to fix this or be alone forever; not an easy choice.

So, this is why I ask, what is the best way to handle this? thanks.

tomsteve

I still remember a time when my ( now ex) fiancé said to me," when you're sober you're the most loving man I ever met, but when youre drinking you're evil."
As time when on that changed to," when you're drinking you're nothing but evil and it' now happening a lot when you're sober,too."

Of course she wanted the kind,caring,loving man I was at one time to be there and the evil me to not be there. What she wanted didn't matter. Wouldn't have mattered if she offered me the world to stop drinking and get rid of the old me. It didnt even matter what i wanted. Deep down in i didnt want to be that way.I was a practicing alcoholic at the time. Alcohol was my master and that's what was making my decisions.


" I sometimes feel that I either need to fix this or be alone forever; not an easy choice."
For some reason, maybe because I also had/ have codie issues( imagine that!!LOL) I can relate to them feelings. After I got sober is when they really surfaced.
And I learned its not my responsibility to fix someone else. I didn't cause it, can't control it, or cure it.
And here I sit today. 47 years old, single( actually never been married), and quite happy, peaceful, and love myself.

IMO, the best way to handle it is to step away from the relationship and work on you. I'm thinkin there's a possibility this isn't the first relationship you've felt ya had to fix/save someone .

FireSprite

I think this says it all right here, honestly.

Normal or not doesn't really matter. If my daughter were coming to me for advice on this issue & said the above? I'd tell her to cut her losses because no one who acts like this seriously cares about your feelings.

I agree that it's A-OK to set personal boundaries around sex - more than OK, actually. I think more people SHOULD do it.

If it were me & this was an ongoing issue, I'd just say "No."

I'd tell him I want to take sex off the table for discussions for xxxxx amount of time - that I am not comfortable being pressured about it. (maybe a month? 3? wherever your comfort zone is) I think the way he handles that hard line boundary will be very telling.

Yeah, we all do. I'm not being flip - I'm absolutely serious when I say you can't separate the addiction/behaviors & the person. They ARE the same.

lillamy

So let me focus on the question of sex, then, putting his alcoholism aside for the moment:

I think your different ideas of sex would make a relationship difficult. Quite honestly.

I think your attitudes towards sex and intimacy are pretty close to my own. AXH's attitude was completely different. To put it bluntly, he felt that because he had married me and therefore turned his back on having sex with other women, I was obligated to provide sexual favors whenever he wanted them -- to him, that was part of the deal: You get a wife so that you can have sex whenever you want.

It took me a long time to formulate what I felt -- but I ended up feeling like a commodity: He had a fridge and a stove so that he could cook a meal when he was hungry. He had a toilet so that he could take a dump when he needed to. He had a wife so he could have sex whenever he felt like it. That was my primary function: Sex provider.

It made me feel not like a person but as an object. He would say that sex was how he "felt loved" -- that everything else I did didn't matter if he couldn't have sex whenever he wanted to. When I gave in and had sex with him even when I didn't want to, I felt dirty and used. When I stopped giving in and said no, he started raping me, and he felt he had that right.

I'm not saying your dude will stoop to that level. But I'm saying when you have a fundamental disagreement about what sex is and is supposed to be in a relationship -- you see it as the last step when you've built a relationship; he sees it as... whatever he sees it as? The first step? -- I don't know that you can easily handle it.

I would say the important thing to remember is that your feelings are valid and important and that it would be unhealthy to let him nag, coerce, or in any way push you beyond the very sane and healthy boundary you have set.

dandylion

carmen.....it is such a fatalistic sounding thing for you to say...that "there is anyone else out there for you".

Do you really believe that? Why would you believe something like that?

My grandmother used to say: "There is a l id for every pot".....and I have found out, through my own observations, that this is true.

(even murderers in prison have women who actually marry them)....lol!

dandylion

healthyagain

There might be two sides, but there is only one coin. It will not split vertically so you can pick the side you like.

You see, one of the reasons I liked my AH was that he never pushed me sexually and that he was willing to wait. What a gentleman, I thought. Well, it turned out later that he was and still is pretty much asexual. It was not that he was willing to wait; my inexperience suited him. I was not sexually threatening. But not only that he seemed "normal," he was perfect. Red flags? I missed so many. Like this split personality you are talking about.

The point is, if you are being manipulated in any way, it is a big red flag.

And you will not be alone forever.

marie1960

I can appreciate your traditional values, and good for you wanting to build a healthy foundation to a relationship.

Your current choice in a partner is an absolute contradiction to your values.

Please, educate yourself about addiction. It is the only way you can make an educated decision about these important life matters.

Currently, we have oil and vinegar.

healthyagain

*double post*

marie1960

I can appreciate your traditional values, and good for you wanting to build a healthy foundation to a relationship.

Your current choice in a partner is an absolute contradiction to your values.

Please, educate yourself about addiction. It is the only way you can make an educated decision about these important life matters.

Currently, we have oil and vinegar.

redatlanta

You are asking people to disregard that he is an alcoholic which is apparently what you are doing as well. I will bite and answer your questions though.

I do believe sex is to be expected in a relationship. Expected, not demanded.

You do not sound like you are sexually compatible. The flashing and what not that you mention is offensive to you and not a turn on. Sounds to me that is his language of love (so to speak) asking him to change what he likes sexually to accommodate what you like sexually is very unfair. Why don't you start flashing him and talking about sex? Why does he have to change to meet your desires and disregard his own?

Sexual compatibility within a "normal" relationship is very important. Its like this in a marriage, when the sex part of it is working fine its simply a non issue. When the sex part is working wrong it is the huge elephant in the room, causes resentments, causes arguments, causes a lot of things including philandering and divorce.

I hear you that you have a lot of feelings for this man but I gotta say WHOA what are you thinking here in terms of long term? He wants to marry you but won't spend time with you unless he gets sex. He is not financially stable, you don't know how you would survive, You don't know where you would live, and you don't speak the same sexual language. Now add is that he is alcoholic. Come on. You know this is a recipe for disaster.

Don't do it. I promise you will wish you were alone a million times over rather than sign up for the above. He is not the only man available to you.

atalose

That’s just it he’s one person who comes with both of those sides and one of those sides you don’t like very much. So no matter how much you try and sell yourself on the good side of him, the bad side will always come along.

Alcoholism is progressive, it only gets worse, his behaviors will get worse.

You are certainly selling yourself short aren’t you by settling for someone who you already know right now today isn’t making you totally happy and your solution is to FIX him, repair HIM, MEND him and mold him via “a relationship” into the “potential” person you hope he can become.

People can’t fix other people, period.

The only person you can fix here is you and why you feel you deserve less then. Why you put yourself on a deserted island and think somehow an alcoholic is your solution.

What has been your past history with men? What kind of men have you dated/married in the past?

knowthetriggers

I'm sorry but he is not grown and mature.

Thinking there is no one else out there for you....Honey, you can't be serious.

atalose is right - he is a package deal and you cannot change him.

This is your future.

And I should add - think about this, if this was your daughter asking you for advice, what would you tell her? And be honest.....what would you tell your daughter to do?

Get out why you can.....

carmen303

Thanks everyone.

I meant that he's "grown and mature" chronologically speaking. Spoke to him today and he was so sweet and kind .... I feel so torn; so confused and really sad. When this happens, I enjoy the moment as if all is okay, but I know the issues are still there.

I was asked about my past relationships. They were respectful, but I was younger. That is the benefit of being younger; they knew the type girl I was and respected it. I was too ambitious in other pursuits during the time that men were more suited to me. Now, I'm treated like, at my age I'm expected to just give in. The respect is gone, because I'm no longer in my 20s. I'm the same person, though. He says that these men acted this way because they were weaklings.

SparkleKitty

It's wishful thinking to hope the parts we don't like about someone will "disappear".

Relationships are successful when each person is able to accept the other for exactly who they are, not who they wish them to be. I know it's not very romantic, but we are all just looking for someone whose faults we can live with.

It's actually very freeing to come at relationships from that perspective, and not from a position of trying to mold others to our idea of an ideal mate.

Hawkeye13

He has as much right to have "values" around a sexual relationship as you do.

He has made it clear that for him, a relationship has a primary sexual focus.
Respect for a partner's preferences is for "weak" men, according to him.

You have made it clear that you are not comfortable with "crude" sexual activity without intimacy and mutual respect.

You saying no to sex but maybe yes if you get what you what is "control" in my book.
You keep trying to control his drinking, and he tries to control you by saying he is "managing" it but there is clearly no action taken to do so.

At this point carmen, it seems you need to accept this man exactly as he is
if you absolutely cannot let him go which seems to be the case given your history of posting.

He wants frequent "crude" sex and to be alcoholic and irresponsible,
and as long as he is clear about that and doesn't force you,
he has the same right to his expectations as you do to be "old fashioned" and want a sober, responsible person for a partner.


You don't seem to want to acknowledge that he is who he is, and his alcoholic progression
and his crude social / sexual incompatiablity is part and parcel of the the man you love.
These parts of him won't go away, so if you don't want to let him go,
and think his good is worth his large amount of bad, that's your right too.

You've been stalled for years now. He hasn't changed, so it looks like you'll have to.
Which direction is up to you and we are here to support you.