Denial or Manipulation?
 

I had a conversation with my H last night. I haven't done this for a long time.

He tells me that he doesn't lie to me, his drinking's not that bad, accuses me of having someone on the side. He says that I'm upset and he has no idea why. He tells me that he's just stressed out at work. He tells me that I say I hate him all the time. It's my fault that we aren't having sex. I just don't love him anymore. If I'm not willing to work on this thing, what's he supposed to do? Etc, etc.

He seems so sincere. He seems like he actually believes all of this. Can he be this deep in denial or is this just more manipulation?

I am fine if I don't try to talk to him. It is amazing to me how easily I can be sucked in when he starts this. All of the guilt and self-doubt resurface so quickly. Even though I know in my head that none of this is true, it seems like he has some weird control over me. Like I've been brainwashed for so long that I can't think straight.

I have to find some way to resolve this. I am planning on leaving him and I know it's the right thing to do. I'm afraid, though, that if I continue to feel this way when he starts in on the guilt trip, I'll never make it.

Any help appreciated greatly.
L

Lorelai,
Do you hear the quacking? It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. I just had a very similar conversation. It breaks my heart that he won't get help. He is destroying himself, and he feels that somehow it's just going to magically work out. I know that I can't help him. I am relying more and more on the love of my Al-Anon group to keep me sane and serene. I won't go down with him again. I am praying for you. I know how hard it is. We are going to be ok. Hugs, Magic

((L))

It's tough, isn't it? Have you thought that all those things that he's saying about you are really things he's saying about himself? I know myself that the traits in other people that I get angriest about are really the things that I don't like about myself. And I'm not an A.

He's an A. He doesn't know what reality is anymore. But you know what YOUR reality is. WE know what your reality is, because we live through similar things every day.

The guilt trip that he's put you on for all these years is what has kept you there. It's worked for him, so why is he going to do anything differently?

I don't know the answer, I'm afraid. But I know what you're going through.

Lots of Love

Minnie

Yup, Magic. I know it's quacking. Knowing that doesn't seem to solve the problem though. I know that this is something that I need to work on for myself. I know that it doesn't have anything to do with him. It just seems like I have a built in guilt button and I have to learn to shut it off or have it surgically removed.

Maybe, the solution is just to not talk to him. I just know that, once we split up, it's going to be coming hot and heavy and I want to be strong enough to ignore it.

Why in the world do I give any weight to the quacking of an A? I know it's crazy. I guess that I want to believe him. I don't want to believe that the man I have been with for 30 years is that man.

I need to get out of my fantasy world.
L

Thanks Minnie.
I know you're right. I just need to be told again a few thousand times. I've gotten through so much. This next part is going to be the hardest, I'm afraid.
L

lorelei- brainwashing is pretty much what we have allowed. i identify with alot you said. get strong & good luck.

prayers and hugs coming your way

cwohio

L

I have only been here a few months, but in that time I have seen you move so far in your recovery. I hope you are mighty proud of yourself.

The next part might be hard for a little while, but don't you think that some short term intense pain is worth being free of the longer term dull pain?

You know what you want to do. And with the help of everyone here, you have the strength.

M

Lorelai,

It is both denial and manipulation. Remember "Bullsh&t, Baffles, Brains".

You said in your second post that you will have to stop talking to him in order to leave.

That's what I did because if I hadn't I'd still be there doubting myself and thinking I was wrong.

So I stopped having those conversations and started reading books on emotional abuse,coming to this web-site and going to see my therapist until I was ready to do it.

It was the only way for me.

Ngaire

Thanks Ngaire -
You're right. I know that having conversations with him does nothing but make me crazy. I just can't imagine that I'm on my way to "well" when one sentence from an addict makes me doubt everything I know for sure.

He's very good at all of this. He's had a lot of practice.
L

Don't be discouraged, like you say he's had lots of practice. Best thing is no more conversations I found.

I found my strength came from taking care of me.

Ngaire

You have given me so much strength and so many kind words.......and so much knowledge...........Thank you so much for being you..........:)

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers...........

Hey L.,
Does he have moments of lucidity where he tells you he knows he drinks too much, where he knows why you're upset and tells you it will get better? I hate it when it gets turned on us, but I hate it worse when they tell you they know and their idea of being better is only drinking three nights instead of five! UGH! I feel for ya sweetie, stay strong and do what is best for you. Don't let the quacking get ya!
Hugs,
Paula

(((Lorelai)))) When I first started to come to this site, you seemed to me to be so knowledgable and together, as well as some of the moderators. I just never thought at the begining that you have problems too. I have read your posts since that first day and I see that you're just like me, except deeper into your recovery. So when I see a post like this, I'm hesitant to answer because you always have the answer for me.

If you read my post from Sunday morning, you will see that my A and I had a talk too and he had the same attitude as your A. His main conern was that I get off his back about his drinking and don't make him feel guilty about it. He even gave me permission to drink if I want to. :lmao:

I've decided that I'm going to work on my recovery and my finances so that when he is asked to leave, I will be ok. I can only see that as long as he stays in denial, there is no hope for us. The only hope we have is that he realizes he has a problem and gets help. So hang in there. I know you can stay strong. :hug:

(((Lorelai))) Many hugs and prayers to you. I wish you all the best in your decisions. I wanted to respond as one who has been on "the other side", in other words out of the relationship with the A. Mine was forced, not willing though, he walked out but the end result was being alone. I just want to say please please please, have a plan, have some funds, have your support system in place. Know what you are going to do, make sure you are physically and emoitionally ready to see this through. When you aren't ready the reality can hit you like a ton of bricks and question the deepest part of your sanity. The adrenaline is high at first and that makes coping easier, I had a huge cloud of hate that kept me going for quite a while. When these wear down you will go through a process much like having someone close to you die and will experience feelings of doubt, guilt, hurt and despair. Not everyone goes through this but I know I did. I just can't stress enough to be as ready as you can be. Like my mom says "Don't look back and don't let the door slam you in the butt on your way out" Know, really know this is what you have to do, then do it. Who knows what tomorrow may bring? Sometimes a seperation is whats needed to make people see things clearer and focus them on whats important in life. For me it brought my kids back into the #1 position, where they always should have been and got me into my recovery. After my seperation my A decided to work on himself, and now we are trying to work on peicing our marriage back together. It's been a very tough road, the roughest thing I have ever dealt with in my life. I don't wish that pain on anyone. Just know you aren't alone, I felt so alone at first. Hang tough to what you need to do. Many hugs, Teggie

Thanks everyone.

((breec)) - Thanks for the prayers.

((paula)) - Not my H. Never once has he admitted to seeing the reality I see. I guess that maybe that's what I'm looking for - his admission that I'm right so that I can be at peace with all of this. I'm not going to get it so I have to find my peace some other way.

((karivan)) - I think that everyone here still struggles at times. Please don't hesitate to answer. I "get" something from every post I read and just knowing that you care is a huge help to me. I know so many things that I didn't know. That doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to follow through on them. I have been with my H almost every day for 30 years. Almost every memory in the my life involves him. This is going to be hard regardless of my recovery. Just because it's the right thing to do doesn't mean it's going to be easy. I'm glad you're in my corner.

(((Teggie))) Thanks for the advice. I have my finances in order (as best I can). I have activities to keep me busy. I've done what I can to prepare my girls. I know in my heart that this is what I have to do. When I ask myself - "Is this how you want to live the rest of your life?", I have no doubt that the answer is no.

I know that my the biggest challenges I face are these:
1. Money
2. The "habit" of him being here
3. His uncanny ability to manipulate me.
I am more than capable of handling the first two challenges. I'm working on the third. It will "get" it. I will see that I have no reason to feel guilty. I will understand deep in my soul that his words are just the words of a desperate man.

As with everything else, I just need to dig deep and understand. As with everything else, you are all here with me and helping me. That's a blessing.
L

I know where you are at. I can't be mad, because he hasn't done anything but be an alcoholic. It would be easier if he was mean or had done something wrong. Sometimes we have to do things just because of us, and not because of someone else. You have my love and support, Lorelai. Hugs, Magic

Magic -
You're an angel. It would be much easier if I could just hate his guts. Of course, I can't because he is doing what he believes he has to do.

I spent a lot of years waiting for him to do that one BIG thing that would be my escape route. One thing that I could point to and say "Look, you did this. It's all your fault." Of course, as years went by, my definition of the BIG thing became more and more lax. By the end, he would have had to hit me or be caught in bed with my best friend for the thing to be BIG enough.

Just thought of something - I'm trying to access blame. I'm trying to get him to admit that he's wrong so I can blame him for all of this. I can then walk away still being perfect. No one is to blame, are they? It just is as it is. I'm not perfect, never will be, aren't expected to be. I'm going to chew on that for awhile.
L

Decisions aren't black and white. It is ok to do what is best for you. You aren't wrong, and neither is he. The sad thing is that he isn't going to understand. It's not your job to make him. I know how hard this is for you, and I want you to know that you aren't alone. Hugs, Magic

My ex-A got into habit of calling me an absolutist. I guess that was suppose to hurt me. If I had a problem or was referring to someone else he just kept saying that "good luck finding another absolutist to help you". I still do not know what he meant by that. I guess to him it was us and them thinking and he had placed me into "them" box in his mind. Sad really.

All that started after I made clear to him that I could not deal with alcoholism. Soon after that I ended up leaving him.

These days I struggle with whether to get in touch with him or not. Having the fights in my head about whether it was really painful to be in that relationship or not. Pain still wins :)

L~
I sure makes it easier if we have somewhere to place the blame, doesn't it? I really liked when you said "it is just as it is", how true, but how difficult to just leave it at that...I am praying for strength for you, although I know by reading your posts, you are a very strong, intelligent woman and you are going to make it through this--and come out even stronger on the other side.
Hugs,
Paula