involved

How and when is there ever a good time to talk about anything besides the weather... Any serious conversation is met with a brick wall and I am told that I am causing drama...apologizing for something I have done just seems to push buttons. Acknowledging my side of the wrong is met with such emotions from him. Can anyone help me sort thru this?

Hangnbyathread

Stand in line. Most of here have never figured it out.

involved

I guess I know it happens...and I know its his crap not mine. But when your standing there with your bare face hanging out waiting for the slap, that you know is not your crap, to come...how do you not take that personally?

firebolt

Yeah it is difficult. Eventually, I've resolved that my ABF is often not capable of communicating with me on the level that that I would like to communicate (except for a window in the mornings when we spend time together). When he is able to, the conversation usually isn't remembered by him later anyway.

I fill that void with long awesome talks with my family and friends. We discover the roots of the universe, and solve all the worlds problems together Unfortunately discovering the root cause of my staying with someone who doesn't fulfill some of my fundamental needs from a partner is much, much harder to pinpoint from talking to my friends.

dandylion

involved...you might begin by learning how to "detach" as a tool to protect yourself.
Your suffering does not matter to the alcoholic, anyway...because they are living in a pool of denial. All energies are focused inward on themselves in order to protect their ability to continue to drink. They spend most of their energies in fighting the war that is going on in their own head...so, most of everything else around them goes by in a sort of blur. If something does bother them...they immediately drink away that feeling...

dandylion

involved

Thanks Firebolt. It can be a very hard thing for outsiders to understand why we do what we do. My A is more often than not sober and not hung over when I attempt any kind of serious topic. He usually feels bad about his outburst...its like he just wants me to sweep anything serious (wants needs apologies concerns...) under the rug and ignore the big lump!

involved

Yes Dandylon...detatch...its not a very big word but so hard to understand!

dandylion

Involved...even when they are "sober", the alcoholic thinking is still present. It takes work on his part in a recovery program to be able to acknowledge and change this kind of thinking.
This is why you will have to do the changing...because, he doesn't seem like he is close to wanting it. He is still wrapped, tightly, in the cocoon of denial.

do you know how to begin to detach? If not, put out the "call" and the other members here, will be glad to teach you....

dandylion

involved

I guess I understand what it is but its what you said...how to begin! I read and re read codependent no more but cant seem to not take things personally and emotionally!

firebolt

It is tough not to take it personally when we chose them as a partner, a team member, and as someone to live and grow with. We chose people that cannot do those things right now - not in a reciprocal way to what we do, and not to our level of expectation.

They are who they are. We either live with it and work around it to keep our own lives as well as possible, or we leave it and start fresh in hopes of a more healthy environment and harmonious existence for ourselves.

We cannot make them into better / different / healthier human beings. We chose people that are not ideal for our idea of a partner. Realizing this, and letting go of what I think ABF's role in my life SHOULD be has helped me to detach immensely. He is a good person, a cool guy, but just not ideal for me, right now. This knowledge has turned all of my focus back to me - my needs, my growth, and my life and future. I am fairly detatched from his problems.

involved

Thank you Firebolt...I guess I am just having a hard day. I get all that but sometimes its hard to remember. My guy is a good guy...who also happens to be an alcoholic...he struggles sometimes as do we all. He has a sponsor, is the chair of one of his weekly meetings, is the representative for his group that goes to the monthly AA district central office meeting. He is human...Some days its just so hard. I guess when I show emotions it freaks him out and he has to deal with his emotions. And we both struggle. I deal with the outburst and brick wall better now than I used to. I used to try to explain and convince and make him see etc. I have learned to say my piece and let it be...most of the time. But it still hurts my heart inside.

dandylion

We.e.l.l, I would say a couple of things, to this:

First of all, recognize that it has nothing to do with you. this behavior, of his, is to protect himself...and, not motivated by a CONSCIOUS mission to hurt you. This is what they do for protection...and, if we are in the way..they **** on us.
(for an understanding of this..I suggest that y ou read the article: "Addiction, Lies and Relationships" by Floyd P. Garrett. You can do a google search for it on bma-wellness.com.

Second...if you do anything to come between him and the drink, you will be perceived as the "enemy". Any criticism of his behaviors are likely to be taken as criticism of himself (most alcoholics also carry a huge burden of guilt and shame). They will most usually react negatively...AND TRY TO PROJECT THE GUILT ONTO YOU. this will take the focus off of them and place it onto you.
It will help, to some extent if y ou use only "I" statements...not "you" statements.
"When you ignore me, I feel so and so..."

Recognize that you may never be able to have the kind of conversations that two healthy married partners would have...it you are dealing with an actively using alcoholic (even if they are temporarily "sober").

Know what you KNOW!! Do not expect or seek his validation..because you will just be further hurt...
Do not JADE-- J-justify A--argue D--defend E--explain. DETACH. detach.

When he is being an A**...picture him as a small duck quacking his head off....and, detach.
When he is spilling stupidity out of his mouth...picture him with a huge S on his forehead for "sick"....and, detach.
Walk away. Leave the house. Ignore, and pretend to be preoccupied.
Plan some one sentence remarks that will end the conversation....like "whatever", or, "I am not going to discuss that with you", or whatever you can come up with...

By the way..it is normal to feel hurt by mean things our loved ones say to us. It is not normal to have no feelings. the goal is to put a protective plastic shield around yourself to give you some space and protect yourself....

dandylion

dandylion

Sorry, involved...I assumed that y our husband was still drinking. I see by your last post that he isn't.
You may have more than just alcoholism, at play here..I don't know....
Still...the things that I just spoke of still apply....

Are you trying to accept unacceptable behaviors in order not to "disturb" the relationship...?

dandylion

involved

Yes Dandylion...it is his guilt and shame I think that are the trigger for his brick wall and outburst. And I want to be clear that the problems I bring up do not have to do with drinking or getting in the way of that. If I ever am crazy enough to get into one of those discussions I have no problem understand and detatching from his quack BS... With him it does not matter if I use I statements. He sees thru that and goes streight to shut down mode. I truely think he feels bad because I feel bad and he cant fix it... More like a "Men are from Mars Women are from Venus" train of thought, .from the Alcoholic perspective!

And ps...he still does have the occasional "screw it, I am lonely and its football sunday and I am not hurting anyone but myself" day...thats his crap but I think that keeps the beast alive. We are not married and do not yet live together.

dandylion

involved....I don't know how long he has been in recovery...and, I don't know the many dynamics of your alls' relationship.
I can say that alanon (or similar support group) and a personal therapist might be a combination for you to think about. It is still left for you to sort your own self out--because you have to live in your own skin 24/7.
Whether you are beating o n a brick wall or a dead horse...to continue the beatings just makes the situation worse.

LOL!..I remember a saying that I saw on my husband's office desk, once, that said: "The beatings shall continue until the mood, around here, improves"....I almost peed my pants, laughing....

dandylion

DoubleDragons

Unfortunately, when an alcoholic is still active I think weather talks are as about as deep as you want to get.

cookiesncream

Coming from someone in recovery I would say this. First don't ever even bother to try and have a conversation with your partner while they are under the influence. They likely won't remember or whatever answers you get will be skewed. I will say that even though I am the RAW I have faced quite an awful lot of what you have faced in my s/o. I have to say that frequently there is a lot more going on in relationships then just the alcohol. I don't really think its possible to get to the root issues however with someone in active addiction. Upon the recommendation of someone also in recovery I just found a book called Boundaries in Marriage. I'm not terribly religious so I'm skipping over the religious stuff but it gives an awful lot of very practical advice on looking deeply into ourselves and figuring out what we can change. I was very very guilty of retreating first emotionally, then with addiction, without ever ever changing my own response to anger, guilt, etc. I never told him WHY I was retreating. I never changed trying to appease him when he was angry. I never detached in healthy ways. You can't change anyone else but owning your own stuff as much as you can is healthy. Just my 58 cents and I'm only getting to this point a year after ditching booze as a coping mechanism.

Peace,

Cookies

involved

Thanks Dandylion...I think its a combination of what both you and Firebolt are saying...I dont know if we can call it "recovery" if he still drinks occasionally. He does not try to justify it or pretend he can moderate. But it has been a battle of in an out, off and in for 20 years with different efforts and motivations. Back then it was drugs gambleing and beer...he has gotten it down to just the beer... Its been 3 years this time....we were together 20 years ago for 2 years and got back together 3 years ago. And fyi I am also perimenopausal. So yes, let the beatings begin!

dandylion

:haha

involved....LOL!LOL!.....at least, you have not lost y our sense of humor!

cookiesncream

Well for whatever its not worth I'm no spring chicken myself and am also in the same situation myself. Honestly dealing with guilt trips, pity parties, "I'm unhappy and its all your fault", passive aggressive behavior, yada yada yada sober has been TOUGH. I don't know how you guys do it. I finally reached my limit the other day and found this darned book since I'm going to go nuts if I don't start changing my own reactions;-)