FireSprite

*disclaimer* I realize that my post is about a component of life with my RAH & that it may not be relatable for those dealing with an active drinker/a qualifier not in recovery or those that have left.


In the history of our relationship, I have ALWAYS handled the finances, 100%. It started out that way because I'm good with money, it's just that simple. I considered it part of us playing to our strengths in the relationship - just like it made sense for him to be the one doing vehicle maintenance, household repairs, etc. He's a contractor, those are some of his strengths.

Over time though, it also created an illusion of control for me. I saw everything - because as you all know, missing receipts still show up on monthly statements. (see, illusion - I wasn't actually in control of stopping the problem, I was just really AWARE of it.)

In his active drinking/lying days the credit & bank statements arriving in the mail gave me anxiety; it always led to an argument. Over time he destroyed his own credit, running up balances that he couldn't cover on cards in his company name that he had personally signed for. When he took out a new credit card at our bank & transferred some of his balances I saw the handwriting on the wall - the same thing had just happened with a friend. He didn't pay *his* bill & the bank took the payment(s) out of *their* joint checking account. So, I opened a new individual acct at the bank across the street to separate myself. At that time I was the only one earning income & we were barely making it for the basics.

We started to get a handle on the debts after he'd been sober for about a year but then (I found out later) he really hadn't been in recovery & was lying about work/income/spending & then relapsed under all the stress. That resulted in his 1st DUI & other legal trouble & forced our finances into an even worse state. While I didn't pay for his fines out of my income, I was yet again not getting any/very minimal financial help from him while he paid them down.

Over the last year+, now that he IS working a recovery (or appears to be at least), finances are still a touchy subject. He still has fines, etc. to finish paying off, we are still chipping away at the debt he created between his drinking days & his non-recovering days & trying to stay current with real life. The bank acct is still registered solely to me & while that irks him, it's just another consequence he's had to suck up & deal with.

He's developed exactly ZERO financial skills during all of these years, never HAVING to learn. So even with him in recovery & trying to handle things better, we were still having issues arguing about money..... and some it was so stupid that I just wanted to scream.

Ex: We needed a new water pump for the house & instead of checking the acct balance & asking what bills we had due he just went & bought a super expensive model because a plumber friend recommended it based on the long-term problems we'd been having. Ok, makes sense & I'm ALL for the right fix vs. the fast & easy..... but he didn't communicate that to me. I assumed we would be spending approx. the same as we had in the past on replacement pumps & this ended up being double. I find it all out after-the-fact & when I bring up the concern (shock) he's defensive. In his mind he was doing the right thing, handling a problem, following good advice, unappreciated & he can't see MY bank account balance anyway, so, you know, his hands are tied. (excuses, blameshifting) Every conversation about money ends up with him acting like a reprimanded child, upset with his mommy telling him what he "can" & "can't" do. No, dumba$$, it's just math....we can't spend more than we have.

It took me f.o.r.e.v.e.r. to get him to realize I wasn't upset about the pump, but the way he went about doing it. That most people check how much they have before they spend, it's pretty basic. I think I am finally understanding how much shame he has over this topic too, he fully acknowledges that he is 100% to blame for our problems in this area. I think I finally understand "arrested development".

What would you do, I asked, if something happened to me & you HAD to deal with this stuff for yourself & DD? Would you just dump money into the account, pay bills, run your card at the store & hope you always had enough? Do you think most people rely on the BANK to keep track of how much money they have???

I lost it - no matter what I do/don't do it's always an argument, always an "issue" because it touches that nerve so close to his shame. (yes, his problem) I could not keep running circles around fixing the financial messes he made. So, I did the opposite of what I've always done - I handed it all over to him & told him to have fun...

I made him download the app for his phone to be able to view the checking balance & pay the credit cards. (same bank) I typed up a list of every monthly bill & showed him how they almost all auto-debit from our account so it's a matter of having money in the account to cover it more than it is writing a check & mailing it. Only 2 bills have to be paid via check & I write them out (my acct, only I can sign) & give him the dates/ck#'s etc so he can track them as outstanding until they clear. (foreign concept to him, honestly, smh)

It's been about 6 weeks & it has been so uncomfortable for me to be out of the driver's seat... but at the same time it's AWESOME to push those stressful thoughts off when they arise, praying to HP that I'm making the right decision here. It's been bumpy, he has a LOT to learn & it's hard to watch him go through making mistakes when I know better. I have 30 yrs experience managing money & he's been trying for 6-ish weeks; I have to adjust to reasonable expectations.

I'm still "involved", I get emails about payments due, ask if things are paid, etc. I can check on the acct any time I'd like but I'm forcing myself not to. I'm still the only contact listed on the account & all correspondence goes through my email/text.

I cash my check (I get paid monthly) & deposit 60% of it the day before any of the bills start auto-drafting..... The other 40% I use as needed for groceries, DD's lessons, small unplanned expenses that pop up. I'm saving the leftover amounts every month to rebuild my cash stash which was reduced to almost nothing by the time he finally found a decent job last September after nearly 5 yrs of no dependable income.

I decided on the 60% because it is close to the same net amount he's earning/depositing via direct deposit from his job, which means we're each contributing about 50% of the total money deposited to the account. I've made it abundantly clear that I am uncomfortable with this & that if he's serious about rebuilding trust it starts here..... and I'm working hard to recognize that ignorant mistakes are not the same thing as distrustful behavior.

So - flame away - or, hug me. I feel vulnerable but also good about leaving myself a broad safety net. I don't know how else to fix this dynamic between us and help him get educated on something I consider a critical life skill.

SparkleKitty

Hugs, FireSprite! Always hugs!

My only comment is that the idea that only one of you can handle the finances at a time seems like very black and white thinking to me. Is there room in either of your perspectives for the future for the finances to be something both of you handle together? So then you're both aware of where you're at without feeling guilty for peeking, and there's twice as much chance that bills gets paid on time and no overdrafts occur?

FireSprite

Yes, definitely, great point!

I'd like to get to that point for sure but in the past when we've handled it together, he would procrastinate/get busy/ignore it all until I HAD to handle it. This way I'm not letting him push the responsibility back to me. He'd zone out when we talked because he didn't "have" to know.

Ultimately, if we can get past the growing pains, I would rather it be a shared responsibility because that just makes sense. But I'm guessing/assuming/expecting that he'll have more respect for it all after he's had a period of handling it on his own. It's a total gamble on my side. I'm NOT a gambler.

CodeJob

RAH and I have had our money split since year 3 of marriage. In recovery, money has been a big argument trigger. He took an entry level job with the accompanying 60% cut in salary. We argue over the cost of groceries all the time. It is ridiculous. I'm well aware the argument is just an issue of control, lack of slush in the budget, and resentments.

My only caution to you is one of my friend's has been burned multiple times by letting her depressed H take over the family bills. He stops opening mail and does not pay the bills whenever he stops his meds... When I first met her they were digging their way out with consumer credit assistance.

Good luck Firesprite!

Florence

When XAH and I were together, I tried to force this issue. Eventually I came to accept that if we were going to stay together, money and bills would always be mine. I had greased the rails to make sure it was really easy for him to be involved and have input, and he never lifted a finger even when I complained, nagged, and forced him to. It was a MAJOR well of resentment -- eventually coming down to who would pay what for what groceries and how I didn't want my money to go to his gas station soft drinks and smokes. I was working two jobs just to pay the bills, and he worked part time menial jobs, if at all, and spent money on BS.

My real problem was that he was a king baby, and I was his martyr, enabling mom, and I hated the role.

FireSprite

((Nodding))

Yep, this whole turn of events has shown how much of a resentment it has become on my side as well. I knew I had resentments about his financial irresponsibility, but hadn't realized that my forced responsibility was a quieter, but just as real, secondary resentment. I'm trying to work through it......

Duly noted, good advice. Same happened with the friend from the example in my OP - her AH did almost the exact same thing. Right now I have almost everything set up electronically so when I receive email notification of statements, I forward to him. It keeps me in the loop, so I guess I haven't exactly given up all control, huh?

Thanks for the input guys, very valuable thoughts!

honeypig

This is pretty much diametrically opposed to what the situation was w/my A. When we first got married, I was doing all the money handling. Up until this point, I'd never made all that much money and I was absolutely obsessive about setting aside $ for the property taxes, sewer and water, car and house insurance, and other expenses that only came around a few times a year or less. I had a special account into which I put that money and NEVER EVER touched it except for what it was earmarked for. I was living pretty close to the bone in those days and, as the daughter of bankrupt dairy farmers, I was taking NO CHANCES on losing what I had! I kept one of those "budget book" things every year and recorded pretty much everything I spent so I knew where to trim if that was needed. On $9 an hour, there's not much slack...

Gradually, and I couldn't even say when or how, my A took over all the finances. Early on, I'd still have some involvement, and I'd often see things that made no sense in our savings account register. I'd ask him to explain, and he'd deliver a torrent of BS, getting angry at me for not accepting his "explanation", telling me I was wrong to "expect everything to make sense." Eventually I found it easier to just turn my head and trust that things were fine, altho I did wonder from time to time. But he wouldn't lie to me about something like this, would he? He knew how important it was to me to have money in the bank, just in case...

It got to the point where I could find the checkbook and knew the name of our bank, but that was about it. We had both gotten better jobs and things weren't so tight any more. We still kept the "budget book", but he was the only one who ever entered things; I just threw the receipts on the desk and he handled everything. He seemed to always have a wad of cash in his pocket, but if I mentioned it, he said "I like to have some cash on me just in case I need it." I accepted that, and I assumed that it was always the same wad of cash, more or less. We were gradually getting some savings built up, and I felt like we were on the right track.

Well, needless to say, this turned out not to be true. Where your A was clueless, FireSprite, mine was clever about hiding cash withdrawals and then using the cash for his addictions so as to not leave any trail (we used a credit card for almost everything, paying it off every month, but obviously he couldn't buy booze w/that, or I'd know). He has never told me how much he actually spent, claims he "doesn't remember", but from what I've been able to piece together, he's probably diverted an amount similar to everything we had in the bank as of this past fall (when I took half of what we had and started my own account in a different bank, then filed for divorce).

I have seen him do what you're describing your A doing, buying something that is expensive and perhaps grandiose w/o thinking about A) whether we actually NEED all that, and B) whether we can AFFORD all that. I thank the powers that be that I've always been able to block him on the BIG things, though, and with our cheap living situation, the little things fortunately didn't add up to more than what we could pay for.

I think your plan is surely worth a try, and I applaud you for standing back and letting him learn, at least within reason. I really hope it works out and paves the way for some new growth and understanding on both sides. Sorry for the long post, didn't mean to hijack!

LexieCat

I had a very dependable husband who took care of ALL the finances in my first marriage, and I had to play a bit of catch-up when we got divorced. I NEVER relinquished control of the finances after that--not in my second marriage (which was fairly brief and he was unemployed most of the time) or in my last relationship. I DID get taken advantage of, financially, but it was all with my own knowledge/participation, so I have to own that. But I knew where all the money was, and where it was going.

I dunno, if you do better at that particular task, I tend to think you shouldn't mess with it. Maybe a better idea would be to simply have a monthly meeting--probably half an hour should do it--to just review what happened financially that month--what you spent money on and why. Maybe an agreement that if either of you spends more than a set amount--let's say a couple hundred dollars or something--that you will inform the other before spending it. (That's apart from fixed, regular expenses like rent, mortgage, insurance, etc.).

After my first marriage, too, I always had one joint account that we would both contribute to (in theory--sometimes the guys weren't putting any in) for joint/household expenses, and we both had separate, completely discretionary accounts.

Each couple has to work out a system that keeps both partners safe and as informed as they want to be/need to be, but isn't oppressive to either one and allows for a certain amount of freedom when you can afford it. It's a challenge, for sure.

Stung

I have always managed our money since we commingled our finances when we first moved in together 11 years ago. Not exactly sure why. AH isn't necessarily bad with money and he's always made substantially more money than I have. I just happen to have a background and degree in finance though. But there is some control/resentment stuff around money for us too. Not really sure why.

The last two months we have been sitting down every Saturday and opening the mail together and going over ALL expenses together while our girls nap. Usually takes an hour and has cut down on spending on both of our parts because the transparency and accountability is there.

FireSprite

Thanks guys, we've BTDT with the monthly meetings so many times I have the T-shirt in every color. It just doesn't sink in for him to see the broad strokes like that & it adds to the resentments on both sides. Like I said, he still "hears" everything I say about money as a lecture from mom & I resent having to remind a 40-yr old man how disastrous impulsive spending is.

I know a big hurdle {for him} is that he's terribly undereducated & he gets extremely intimidated during these conversations which makes him tune out & focus on his negative feelings instead of just trying to learn.

Big purchases are not typically the problem, the pump thing was just an example of how he doesn't get the big picture & need to communicate clearly. He's more of a nickel & dime kind of spender, so while he'd never run out & buy a new drum kit on a whim he'd think nothing of grabbing drum sticks, new guitar strings, a couple packs of cigs, a few hands tools needed for work, go out for lunch & then tell me he hadn't spent anything. When I see the charges/say wtf he says, well yeah, I bought stuff I NEEDED but I didn't go spending money for no reason. Shouldn't be a big deal & in the old days it wouldn't have mattered a bit.... but RIGHT NOW we are on a shoestring budget & yeah, it sucks but stuff like this matters.

I closed all unnecessary charge/credit accounts a couple of years ago because he just never got a handle on changing his spending habits even though our income had changed so dramatically. Cutting back to debit/bank only has helped some, but more than ever I see that he just does NOT get it.

His parents were an extraordinary example of how NOT to manage money... I've never seen people get so many opportunities to have more/do better & just throw them away one after the other. Just 1 example: Shortly after we got married, 2 of RAH's brothers were hit head on by a drunk driver. His younger brother was just under 18 & had to have reconstructive surgery on his face to repair damage to his eye sockets/facial structure. When the settlement came in he was months away from finishing HS but they encouraged him to spend the money however he wanted & to not worry about college if he didn't care to. Part of what "he" wanted to do was visit us in FL & go to Disney so they did. (obviously this predates my NC with them) They stayed with us for 10 days & his parents would LITERALLY throw money around. I was sitting on my porch & his dad dropped $100 in my lap, because, why not? Huh? They shopped every day, bringing back thousands of dollars worth of books, videos, video games, gaming systems, etc. Junk. They paid for a week at Disney for all of us & by the time they left I had saved $1300 in "gifts" & paid off a small student loan.

They were broke a year later. Little brother knocked up his hick girlfriend & skipped college to become a daddy at 18 instead. They now have 6 kids & live in absolute poverty.

All in all he's been better since taking charge with the money. It's rocky, he still has a way to go with long-term budgeting but there's no where to shift any blame this way. He's learning the hard way that yeah, the bank holds part of your check for a couple of days & the total isn't always immediately available for use. We've actually argued a bit less & when there have been issues I could easily point & say, see...... you, you, you, you, DD's, now do you see who does the off-budget spending?

Thumper

Maybe he should carry cash for his discretionary funds. I can see where it would get very old consulting with someone about a $20 purchase - but I also totally get that 8 $20 purchases is a problem! Cash makes that some what easier. He can go to the bank and withdraw however much discretionary funds he budgets for each pay period and just leave the debit cards at home. Takes buy in on his end though and the maturity to not get mad/manipulative when he doesn't have enough money for a coffee for days on end.

After reading the thread I think the trick will be to keep your eye on the end result. The end result is the joint account being in the black with all bills paid. I hate to say it but half the world lets the bank keep track of their account and throw receipts away the second they leave a store so that might be something you can let go of and let him do it his way - as long as his way still gets the end result (bills paid and not going in the red).

That is kind of nit picking - overall I feel your pain and admire the steps you are taking despite the underlying concern.

Mango blast

Have you thought of getting a financial planner?

A rehab counselor suggested this to us and it seems like a great idea. Let someone else give us input, take care of the payments and help take the emotion out of it. I'm just starting to look into it. I'd prefer that all our money is put into an account the FP would then pay our bills out of. We could do it cheaper by ourselves, but then comes blame, controlling, feelings of failure, etc. We each have more than enough to learn in our recoveries.

My husband agrees, but thinks it's premature since we don't have any $ to speak of. I believe it's the perfect time. Still a disconnect there, but we're getting closer.

When what we have been doing isn't working, it's time to do something different.

When we're much healthier individually and as a couple, I'd enjoy taking a Dave Ramsey course together. That's probably quite some time down the road.

hopeful4

I choose to hug you. I know how hard it is to let go of the financial control. I believe in a marriage it is much more healthy for both parties to be involved.

Good for you!! XXX

Mango blast

That, too. Big hugs for you.

Sounds like a good plan for now, new awareness for both of you and still security for you & DD.

Hawks

If control of everything is pretty much your addiction (something you find incredibly difficult to give up) then it's as good for you to quit that, just like its good for him to quit alcohol.

It damages him (booze).... It damages you (the need to control)

Same, same.

So well done and

Maybe this gives you an insight into how hard it is to quit an addiction?

TerpGal

My RAH has become insanely irresponsible about money the further he got into alcoholism. In our early 20s when we had seperate finances he was amazing with his money. I was sort of the clueless one. I was fresh out on my own, no one had ever taught me how to budget, etc.......I made a lot of mistakes and my credit was not great. RAH on the other hand was on top of everything and had a very high credit score, coming from having a CPA father I guess. Then we got married and combined our finances. And bought our house, and his drinking slowly progressed. I won't lie and say that we didn't get knocked around a lot during the recession.........we did, but in addition to the money going towards alcohol he just started spending money Willy nilly on impulse buys. Never any high ticket item but a lot of little things that added up.

He never had the app for our bank on his phone, didn't think about spending money on new shoes for himself, or a new hat or this or that. I was always worried about the money, would have only 1 pair or jeans until they wore a home in them, only got new clothes at Christmas and if I had to buy on my own, I'd just go to Wal-Mart. The spending only recently was addressed and this is 6 months into no drinking. The compulsive behaviors.........still there. It has made me mighty resentful.

I went out and started my own account in my name only and when my direct deposit starts going in, I am having a certain amount from each check go right into savings. I will transfer my portion of any shared bills into the old account and he can have fun with the rest. I know I can take care of my own bills and don't spend compulsively. It Will be nice, not frantically checking the account 5 times a day to see what was purchased NOW.

I'll hug ya. Giving up that control must be hard, but at least you can't be totally blindsided. Can you consult with a financial person so your AH can hear all that stuff, just from someone other than you?

Soberintexas007

I handle all of the finances, but my husband is still drinking. He just had too much arrested development and is too forgetful and disorganized to handle the finances. But he does not care that I do this, and I do not mind it, as it plays to our strength.

I get the feeling that your husband will never be organized enough to handle any of the finances, and I would suggest not gambling with that risk.

LemonGirl

I had a bf once who acted like King Baby. I would beg him to look at our finances together and he'd refuse. And then he'd throw a fit when I'd ask him for money for the bills..... "I just gave you money for bills!" "Well, there's more!" "Well stop buying so many clothes for the kids and you'll have enough money for the bills!"

Uh yeah..... talk about irresponsible. The truth was that he wanted to pocket the money for his drugs. He even took a second job as a pizza delivery man once only to tell me that his tip money was being stolen at work and that him bringing pizza home every night for dinner would save us from having to worry about grocery money. I couldn't deal with my nagging; it felt so forced and out of sync with who I am.

I commend you for trying this out. I don't know if I would be brave enough to do what you are doing. So (((hugs))) and good luck!

auroraxborealis

Thank you! I never did split finances with my X. (We didn't live together or have shared expenses.) I'm great with money, except I never have enough, ha. Too many student loans. Anyways, X is not great with money. Good at math, bad at finances. I'm glad I can learn this dynamic wasn't unique to us.

LifeRecovery

Fire-

I had very similar situations with my ex.

Some things that helped me.

1. We each had an individual account and then had a "shared" account that we payed bills out of for joint items. We each put 50% into that as we made the same amount. I have seen later that doing a split of 60/40 or 70/30 depending on individual incomes can help also. This helped me immensely. I did however have to get used to NOT covering this account from my own fund if an error was made. I did eventually give up to my partner some responsibility (cause what if something happened to me....who would do the bills?).

2. I took a course by Dave Ramsey with my ex. This helped me and this helped our financial relationship significantly because we took the class together and it helped us to speak the same language (cheaply).

3. Since I have been single I am doing okay. I recently though decided to get some help from a financial planner (a CFP). It was an AMAZING experience and one I think was great for me. It was not cheap at the outset, but will save me money in the long run.

4. I have had to do some work on my recover on the financial part of things. I have had a lot of emotions/resentments etc about this situation. I also have found that it extended back beyond this relationship for me.....it has helped immensely.

Good luck. I would love to hear how it works out.