honeypig

Wow, I got another recovery-related daily email that really resonated w/me:

“Learning is not child's play; we cannot learn without pain.”
-Aristotle

Seems to be a little different take on learning than what I'm used to hearing. And pretty accurate, too, wouldn't you agree?

knowthetriggers

I agree 100%!!

Stung

You know what is funny is that having a 1 and 3 year old, they often do learn with pain. Throwing toys in the house means timeout, running in the house means tripping and often falling, playing with the straw in your smoothie means no more smoothie, hitting your sister means having to play by yourself, etc.

Honestly, my kids are much better learners than I am. I keep touching the hot stove over and over and over again and blaming the stove for not being cold.

TalenCrowhaven

Well, as a hardcore learning theory freak...

What is it exactly we are learning through pain?

Do we learn to leave a current relationship because that particular relationship causes us enough pain to leave? I've heard that it can take a person up to seven times to leave an abuser. As the abuse tends to escalate each time they go back, we're talking a lot of pain here and a very slow learning curve.

Pain is nature's warning to keep us safe and alive.

Then there is also the question of how far that lesson carries and where we make the association. The learning, unfortunately, may only be associated with that one individual abuser, and will do nothing to stop us from moving on to a new abuser.

One of the reasons we always talk about working on ourselves, is to hopefully extend this learning so as not to put ourselves right back into another painful situation.

ETA: And, while we're learning through our experience, the children watching are learning through observation. What exactly are these children learning?

Very interesting topic!

TalenCrowhaven

We certainly do learn through pain. It's just not the only way we learn.

Yeah, the stove thing gets me too. I guess my need to eat hot food is greater than the risk!

Stung

Oh, they definitely learn through rewards too and just positive encouragement and fun engagement. There are many ways that we learn, especially children. I think as far as relationships are concerned they primarily learn through observation, which is why I kind of pick and choose who I want in my life.

Katchie

SR folk must be geniuses! Lol!!

I jest, but I agree. Sometimes the biggest lessons I've learned have been as a result of pain.

Great post!

TalenCrowhaven

And yet, one of the hardest things to get my brain around, is how an addiction can cause such intense pain and suffering for the addict, and they will still use.

I wonder what reward there is in addiction that defies logic.

Dopamine?

TalenCrowhaven

Honeypig,

Now you got me going!

I found this: Addiction and Learning Theory - New Hope Recovery Center

LexieCat

It's because living without it feels even more unbearable and painful. Until you learn how to live life sober, that's just how it is.

It's like having a terribly painful medical condition that can only be cured by an even more terrifying treatment. And as long as you keep drinking/using the pain goes away, at least for a while. That's why it's so vicious.

LemonGirl

We have a saying as preschool teachers, "Play is a child's work."

And it is! When we are little, we act out and explore every scenario we are enlightened to. Funny how when we start to "grow up", that turns into pain....

I read a book a looking time ago "where is God when it hurts?" It talked about how we expect HP involvement, when really, much of our pain is self inflicted.

In my mind, pain and growth scaffold from childhood into adulthood and beyond. It's all about the choices we make that choose the direction. And the downward spirals only lead to having to climb back up! Makes it a bit harder... more painful, you know?

Stung

I've read that the initial rewards are what keep the addict going back for more. I've asked AH before if the first drink feels good. The answer is yes. It's satisfying. Really satisfying. That's the reward. There is pain after the fact but the first sip, that's all pleasure. There was a Larry King special about addiction that I watched on YouTube awhile ago and one of the recovery methods they discussed was taking away the reward aspect of drinking by using naltrexone (a drug that my husband was prescribed by his psychologist) and planning out your drinking while you're taking naltrexone. Naltrexone blocks feel good sensors in the brain so if you engage in the activity of drinking but your brain doesn't feel any of the "high" or endorphins from engaging in drinking then suddenly the reward is removed, thus making the activity unappealing and ideally removing the compulsion to drink. It's success stats are pretty staggering. The full episode is here. The main take away is that recovery is not one size fits all and that there are MANY different avenues of recovery treatment, but nothing works unless the alcoholic wants treatment to begin with.

Also, I thought it was serotonin? I know that when someone has an itch, the immediate result is relief when they scratch it but the brain actually recognizes the scratch as pain and releases serotonin to the brain to make it feel better. Serotonin makes you feel good, most depression meds actually trigger your body to produce more serotonin et voila the patient is less sad.

dandylion

"we cannot learn without pain". My take on this is that I would preface this statement with the word "sometimes".
There is a saying that I read on this forum that has stuck with me: "There is seldom coming to reality without pain."
For those of us who have lived in denial of something important...sometimes, coming to recognize and accept that reality can be excrutiating. Along with this coming to awareness is almost always the necessity to change--and, we know how humans generally hate that...LOL!

Thus, I would say that some learning is painful and some learning, though, is pleasurable.


this is my view from the top of the mountain, this m orning.....

dandylion

LemonGirl

[QUOTE=Stung;5186750
Also, I thought it was serotonin? I know that when someone has an itch, the immediate result is relief when they scratch it but the brain actually recognizes the scratch as pain and releases serotonin to the brain to make it feel better. Serotonin makes you feel good, most depression meds actually trigger your body to produce more serotonin et voila the patient is less sad.[/QUOTE]

I got to do some research on stuff about serotonin and the brain and addiction and depression. (How's that sentence for a college grad!? Lol...)

The brain uses little electrical impulses in it's thinking and emotional processes. When an individual is consuming drugs or alcohol.... even gambling, shopping, or sex can do this.... serotonin is released. But in an addiction, it is as if this process is "overused", and so the brain becomes poor at shooting off that little feel good dose from one synaps to another for most activities unless that addiction trigger it. It works like that Zoloft commercial where you see the little balls moving from one nerve ending to the next in an uniform way and then they say "Zoloft works to correct it", and suddenly all the little balls are moving correctly. I guess depending on the level of damage, the brain might once again be able to use things like exercise, a good book, or a massage. Or maybe it is just that it takes time to adjust to the lower levels of serotonin that would suffice for a normal healthy person......

NYCDoglvr

There have been some things I've learned quickly and without a pain. Then there are those things I only seem to get when crawling on my hands and knees to a meeting. As a sponsor used to say, "there are good days and there are learning days."