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Frustrated and worn out

Old 01-23-2015, 03:27 PM
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Frustrated and worn out

I finally found a rental who would work with me and accept me despite the fact that I have no income. They are a nice young couple looking to rent out their starter home and I fell in love with the floorplan and cute little backyard. It's further away from things than I'd like but the extra driving, I figured, was doable at this point because no one wanted to rent to me.

So, I didn't tell my AH yet because I had just found out this AM. I was gone all day and when I came home he was gone. He gets home a few hours later and tells me that he found a house to buy! Umm, that wasn't even on our agenda. I sent him a LONG email spelling out 3 different scenarios and NONE of them included him buying a home. That has never come up in any conversation we've had so far.

Before this, he had told me that I could stay here but just 3 days ago he made it clear that he wasn't moving out and that I would be the one to have to move out. He even said, "Hey, if things don't work out for you, you're always welcome back here." Gee, that's great motivation for me to succeed on my own, LOL. So, as far as I knew, he wanted to stay in this house and do whatever it took to do so.

So, the buying a house thing was a shocker. I then explained to him that I was applying for this rental home today and that I may be signing the lease on Monday. He said, "I didn't realize you'd be leaving so soon." Again, he knew we went to look at places on Monday and my son specifically told him about it.

Then, we get into him trying to discuss who's going to pay for weddings, our son's car in the future, his college path, etc. And, when I tried to say, "Let's just bring this conversation back to today and deal with the immediate future", he tried to claim that these things needed to be ironed out ASAP.

I am working on finding a mediator, which is proving to be a real pain because I am trying to get numbers from people and everyone has been sick, busy at work and haven't returned my calls, or whatever. I think I'm just going to find a random firm at this point because I'm desperate to get this all rolling.

AH kept referring to the point that he would be paying for both our homes and then wanted to know how badly I was going to run him into the ground financially. I told him that I want him to pay child support and pay for our son's very expensive tutoring. He wanted me to tell him how much spousal support I wanted because he just wants to pay me off with one lump sum, including the tutoring and child support. He does not want to make payments to me and he is willing to liquidate some of his parent's estate to do so.

I feel like my head is going to explode, yet I also feel more confident. He made a snarky comment about how he wanted to make us a spreadsheet so I could see just where all the money goes and says, "You do know how to read those right?" To which I said, "Gee, thanks for patronizing me." In the past I would have disregarded it or defended myself.

I knew it was going to be crazy divorcing him and I knew this many many years ago. I just need strength to keep pressing on. If I have to hear about how he's going to be thrown in jail because I make him pay too much support , blah, blah, blah...I swear I don't know if I can keep my cool anymore.

And, to follow up on the financials: I think I'd be willing to just accept a lump sum payoff from him. That would keep me from having to deal with him him the future and trying to squeeze money out of him especially if his alcoholism gets worse and he loses his job or whatever. Sigh....long week!
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:08 PM
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I tend to agree with you about the lump sum, cutting ties as soon as possible would do wonders for you moving forward... If you can get him to agree to a fair settlement.

The house thing is the kind of stuff that I hope he keeps at a minimum during your mediation, that's the kind of stuff that can slow the process waaaaay down. ((((hugs))))
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:09 PM
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Liz, I'd suggest going to a lawyer and letting the lawyer handle the negotiation of the settlement. When you try to get him to come to a sensible and workable conclusion, it is like trying to pin down a tumbleweed with a feather. No matter where you go, he has justed moved on in some other random direction that makes no sense.

There is often a reason why lawyers can be expensive and yet worth it: it is a d*mn lot of work to interface with an alcoholic and get a reasonable settlement agreed upon and signed. This will force him to get a lawyer, too, and between the two attorneys, it is more likely that you will get an agreement done. And there are Court schedules and timetables that must be followed, so the lawyers have those as tools to get their recalcitrant, unreasonable, or unhinged clients to do what they need to do or else the Court decides and your settlement offer may likely prevail.

What you are trying to do sounds like a continuation of the craziness that led you to decide to divorce him. I learned long ago that I couldn't have a "perfect divorce" after having a marriage that required divorce. If I could have had it, I wouldn't have needed a divorce at all. So do what you have to do, and get it done as soon as you can and be free to move on with your life.

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Old 01-23-2015, 04:19 PM
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Lizatola, I also recommend a lawyer for this. But, if I may also suggest the following. Work out what monthly payments you need/expect, and for how long for each item ($a per month for x years for tuition, $b per month for y years for support, etc.). Once you have done that, only then work out the lump sum that will generate that flow of payments over the time horizons you need. The lump sum will turn out, I bet, to be a lot bigger than you and he have in mind, because interest rates are so low. If you need help doing that, pm me (I'm an economics professor, so I do this a lot).
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by pflorida View Post
Lizatola, I also recommend a lawyer for this. But, if I may also suggest the following. Work out what monthly payments you need/expect, and for how long for each item ($a per month for x years for tuition, $b per month for y years for support, etc.). Once you have done that, only then work out the lump sum that will generate that flow of payments over the time horizons you need. The lump sum will turn out, I bet, to be a lot bigger than you and he have in mind, because interest rates are so low. If you need help doing that, pm me (I'm an economics professor, so I do this a lot).
I've done this already but I don't know how many years of support I would get. I was going to ask for 3 years, trying to be reasonable.

I cancelled my appointment with the lawyer this week because she wanted her retainer fee and I wasn't ready to fork over $5000 to her when AH and were trying to find a mediator together.

I am going to at least make an effort on the mediator and I know that once I am out of the same house with him, the craziness will be reduced to emails because I won't be in his space anymore and so easily accessible. This is why I want to get out as soon as possible because I'm tired of being cornered in my office.

I may reach out to the lawyer again and see if she'll meet with me for free one more time if I honestly express my concerns.

Shootingstar makes an excellent point, as always, I am getting dragged back into the craziness even though I am stronger and more prepared for it at this point and not so emotionally attached to the alcoholic.
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:39 PM
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Ummm, Liz.

I am not smelling a whole lot of planning on your end of this.

Unless that it is intentional -- for some it is -- just driving, going, and doing . . . especially without any money . . . is not always the world's best plan.

Look at some of the folks on here that have done that and it looks like pretty much non-stop drama being inflicted on the kids.

On the other hand, if that is the plan -- no real plan I mean -- just ignore me.

I sort of settled on the "No Plan Plan" as Mrs. Hammer's only real skills are towards the destructive.

Much more a tearer-downer than a fixer-upper, as it were. So with nothing to attack, she does not have much to attack.

But I do not think that is so much your case?

I would propose you sit and think this all through. Especially with Tradition #7 in mind.

Take what you like and leave the rest.
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:48 PM
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"Together." That word seems to come up a lot. He obviously has no intentions of really cooperating and letting this work, so why are you insisting on trying to make it a team effort? He's a lousy teammate and you'll only be stuck if you keep going along with him.
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:58 PM
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so your hubby is future tripping about things that haven't even happened yet, and yet. he cannot deal in his today.

if it were me, I would pay no attention to the man behind the curtain sooner or later you have to do what you think is best for you and your son. Personally I find his words and ways as a form to continue to engage you, and leave you feeling baffled.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:17 PM
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Honestly, what I would say to my real life sister or a friend, here goes:

1. Get a job. Any job. Just get some form of income flowing into your, not his budget.

2. Figure out how much you are realistically entitled to. And then get the lump sum. Do not count on him to make payments to you in the future.

3. Don't sweat your son's wedding just yet. Have a written plan about college. Since he has paid everything until now and makes more money than you, I would not eliminate him paying for college rather than you. However, he might not be amenable to that, so be prepared if your son plans to attend college and expects you two to help out. When your son turns 18, that dynamic will be between son and father, not you, so keep that in mind.

4. get your ducks lined up before you leave home, unless you are being emotionally or physically abused. In those cases, get the hell out.

PM me if you want.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
Ummm, Liz.

I am not smelling a whole lot of planning on your end of this.

Unless that it is intentional -- for some it is -- just driving, going, and doing . . . especially without any money . . . is not always the world's best plan.

Look at some of the folks on here that have done that and it looks like pretty much non-stop drama being inflicted on the kids.

On the other hand, if that is the plan -- no real plan I mean -- just ignore me.

I sort of settled on the "No Plan Plan" as Mrs. Hammer's only real skills are towards the destructive.

Much more a tearer-downer than a fixer-upper, as it were. So with nothing to attack, she does not have much to attack.

But I do not think that is so much your case?

I would propose you sit and think this all through. Especially with Tradition #7 in mind.

Take what you like and leave the rest.
Ok, Hammer: I do have access to cash(other relatively liquid assets) that will last me about 6-9 months. My plan is to file for divorce ASAP. In the end, he will have to pay me my share of the equity in the house and pay me 1/2 his 401K assets. The house equity is what I need moving forward for long term assistance until I can get back on my feet with a job, etc. There are other scenarios here including the fact that he is trying to access his estate money and that he is considering using it to buy me completely out so that he can keep the house AND his 401K. I verified that he has called the executor of the estate, his brother, and that he has an email out to the law firm handling his parents assets.

The unfortunate thing here is that I am a tightwad as much as AH is and I hate the idea of spending money on lawyers, hence the reason I agreed to try a mediator. We have a meeting scheduled next week.

And, for what it's worth, sometimes a well laid plan sounds really great but things never really work out the way you think they will when it comes to divorces and splitting things up. It gets way more complicated so I'm doing the best I can each day, trying to keep my head afloat, and working on finding employment all while homeschooling, shuttling the kid around, meeting with the realtor, the CPA, etc. Lots on my plate and I actually think I'm doing OK with where I'm at.

Sure, there's lots of fear but is there really any good way to go about divorcing this man? Will any real plan work out well? He is not capable of thinking clearly, he doesn't have the energy to research anything, he is full of hot air, etc.

I have spent the last three years working steps 4-7 on this and every other step in between. I'm wondering why a step 7, quite frankly. Where are you going with this? Just curious in case I missed something.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MissFixit View Post
Honestly, what I would say to my real life sister or a friend, here goes:

1. Get a job. Any job. Just get some form of income flowing into your, not his budget.

2. Figure out how much you are realistically entitled to. And then get the lump sum. Do not count on him to make payments to you in the future.

3. Don't sweat your son's wedding just yet. Have a written plan about college. Since he has paid everything until now and makes more money than you, I would not eliminate him paying for college rather than you. However, he might not be amenable to that, so be prepared if your son plans to attend college and expects you two to help out. When your son turns 18, that dynamic will be between son and father, not you, so keep that in mind.

4. get your ducks lined up before you leave home, unless you are being emotionally or physically abused. In those cases, get the hell out.

PM me if you want.
After speaking with 2 lawyers before the holidays, they both told me to NOT get a job. UGH....so freaking confused. They both said that if I prove to a judge that I can work, handle the tennis schedule, and homeschool, that my AH would not have to pay as much in support and that I might get screwed in other ways.

As for college, my son has been offered a full ride to community college, provided we are still here in AZ. There are other variables, but I knew we would go this route since he is not academically motivated right now and has many learning disabilities.

I already know how much I am entitled to. I spelled it all out to him in an email, being as honest with the numbers as I could. The question is: when and if he is going to pay me anything and can I rely on him to do so at all?

I thought I did have my ducks in a row. My own child told me that it was about time I get out. We aren't being abused other than putting up with his ups and downs and depressions, listening to him rant about stupid stuff, etc right now. AH has been on his best behavior for the past few weeks which makes things easier. But, how long will that last?

You know....I am really getting discouraged right now. It's time I step off.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:39 PM
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i am pming you.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:51 PM
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TRADITION #7.

Does your group read the Traditions?

Some start each meeting with All the Steps and only the Tradition of the month.

Some read All the Steps and All the Traditions every meeting.

Application of the Traditions are a BIG part of the Program.

Read it. Look at it. Understand it. Apply it. TO YOU.

Practice ALL these Principles. In ALL our Affairs.

=============

Tradition 7. Every group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

=============

When YOU do that. YOU will be Free.



I already know how much I am entitled to. I spelled it all out to him in an email, being as honest with the numbers as I could. The question is: when and if he is going to pay me anything and can I rely on him to do so at all?
Really. The A is not YOUR Problem.

Do You.
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
TRADITION #7.

Does your group read the Traditions?

Some start each meeting with All the Steps and only the Tradition of the month.

Some read All the Steps and All the Traditions every meeting.

Application of the Traditions are a BIG part of the Program.

Read it. Look at it. Understand it. Apply it. TO YOU.

Practice ALL these Principles. In ALL our Affairs.

=============

Tradition 7. Every group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

=============

When YOU do that. YOU will be Free.




Really. The A is not YOUR Problem.

Do You.
Sorry, Hammer, I didn't pick up on the fact that you were referring to the traditions and not the steps. Yes, we do traditions in our meetings and I'm quite familiar with them.

As I said above, I was advised by two lawyers to NOT start work until after the divorce so that I will get a more favorable support agreement. Not sure I really care anymore about anyone's advice because I'm extremely down and beating myself up something good right now. I know it will pass, it always does. I guess I should count myself lucky that I don't suffer from depression or severe anxiety.

I thought a door had opened when I found the one rental who was willing to work with me, but I am now seeing that maybe moving out is not a great idea until I have things in writing or actual cash in hand. Sigh......
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:51 PM
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Hugs, Liz. I have no advice. But I'm sending you big hugs.
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:59 PM
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Liz, I think you know exactly what is going on financially. And never give it a 3 year thing, you have a lawyer, let them tell you what to do.

What he is doing here with all of this, that he didn't know it would happen this soon and blah, blah, blah, all that other BS, is trying to keep you in limbo land.

How long have you been in limbo land?

You both tell each other you want to end it, but he keeps coming up with financial stuff, and mediators, and what not. He wants to move out, then he doesn't. He wants to keep the house, then he is looking for a new one. Always trying to keep you off balance, and not knowing what you are doing, and trying to make different plans for whatever is mood of the day.

I don't give advice that much. I will give it this time. Take that cute little apt., get that lawyer, and fight for whatever you can. (But let the lawyer do that)

((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))
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Old 01-23-2015, 09:11 PM
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^^^^ This!! ^^^^
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Old 01-23-2015, 09:41 PM
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Liz,

It seems like you do have a solid plan, and you have been laying the foundation for this and getting legal advice. I'm so happy for you on what you've been accomplishing!

When all the voices of different viewpoints and experiences start confusing me (including my own voice), this prayer tends to help me:

God is my Source.
There is that within me that knows what to do
and how to do it.
All is well.


Breathe deeply. Trust in your own heart and instincts. Miracles DO happen. Not always in the way we may be looking for.

If you're clearing out room in your life for good things to happen, chances are they will be. (((Hugs)))

ktf
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:00 PM
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It may be a matter of making a list and then seeing what should be at the top of the list.

You need to decide whether saving money (i.e. not paying a lawyer) is the top priority or getting the divorce done is the top priority.

I don't see anything that is going to get him to behave in a reasonable timely manner about this divorce.

First of all, he doesn't want to. For lots of reasons, probably, including that he doesn't want to give up his enabler, his enabled lifestyle, part with ANY money for real, ever, accept that he is an alcoholic, acknowledge that his actions have consequences such as divorce, and on and on.

Second, given his progressing alcoholism, he just may not be able to come to an agreement, especially one he is not motivated to seek.

In some circumstances, the cheapest way in the long term to getting something done is to do it the fastest way you can. Given the progression of his alcoholism, who knows how much longer he will keep that job? Losing his job would change the whole financial settlement profoundly.

I'd still say just hire the lawyer and don't try to save pennies just to lose the fortune.

As to not getting a job now, those two lawyers make sense. You'll get a better financial settlement if you do not have a job before you divorce. So get what you can ASAP and upfront while he is still working, and be free.

You're sliding back into living in his crazy world and seeing through his lens. The point of this is not to deal with him - and a mediator will require that - it is getting this divorce done.

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Old 01-23-2015, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post

And, to follow up on the financials: I think I'd be willing to just accept a lump sum payoff from him. That would keep me from having to deal with him him the future and trying to squeeze money out of him especially if his alcoholism gets worse and he loses his job or whatever. Sigh....long week!

I'm sorry I don't have any real advice, but I wanted to suggest a red flag I see.....
Since he is irrational, what would stop him from NOT giving you a lump sum, just so he CAN continue to be in your life and mess with your head. Right now he may feel like he has the upper hand, but I wouldn't put it past him to flip the switch. If I were you, I'd play this out in the most non threatening way until you can high-tail it out of there. And my priority would be severing all I could as quickly as possible.... forget everything else. Anyway, good luck!!!! Not an easy situation to navigate at all.
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