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Old 01-24-2015, 12:48 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
...I know that once I am out of the same house with him, the craziness will be reduced to emails because I won't be in his space anymore and so easily accessible. This is why I want to get out as soon as possible because I'm tired of being cornered in my office.
Just get OUT Liz!

My XAH tried to stay by claiming (over and over and over again) that he would not leave until he had a financial settlement. When I totally detached he finally realized it was OVAH and left.

We are now divorced and still don't have a settlement. That's because he wants money out of me. He demands a settlement from me and I keep telling him that the person who wants the $$$ has to make the moves. I'm not willing to put myself out to hand over $$$ to ANYONE just because they demand it from me.

When you are OUT you will have the peace and freedom to think more clearly. Your husband seems to enjoy throwing you for a loop and chucking in stuff from left field. You are still a captive audience for his shenanigans - and he seems to enjoy it!
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Old 01-24-2015, 01:29 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Liz.... Don't believe a word he says even if his tongue comes notarized!

He's going to tell you anything to get you where he wants you and then he'll go in for the kill. You need an lawyer and you need him now! Take the gloves off and put up your dukes! It's time to get your hands dirty. You two have been playing ring around the rosies way to long. All I have to ask you is... are you tired of it yet?
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Old 01-24-2015, 03:03 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Hi Liz,

I thought I sent a PM last night, but I don't think it went through so here is what I was going to say.

I see two things going on that are confusing.
1. Are you looking to get the most money out of the divorce? OR
2. Are you looking to get divorced the fastest?

Since you are going through mediators (maybe), then I would assume you are seeking the most money, rather than speed. Given your AH is an A and doesn't want to fork over cash he doesn't have to, he is not going to move quickly unless it somehow benefits him. Are you waiting for him to give you a check, or are you waiting for you two to meet with a mediator to sign off on stuff? If he agrees to the financial agreement and pays you a check, can you just file on your own? I know folks that have done that themselves when both parties were agreeable.

When you spoke to the lawyers prior to the holidays, did you tell them that you were going to get a mediator, or did they think you were looking to hire a lawyer to represent you? Did you tell them that your husband is an alcoholic and irrational? Did you tell them that you were planning to move out without a job (your own income) or a written agreement with AH for support? These things are game changers, and as they shift, what is best for you shifts.

I understand why they would say don't get a job, if your AH was rational and you two agreed to a written separation monthly allowance (that could be enforced) until the divorce is final. Without either a job to support yourself, a large savings to run through, or a court ordered payment from him (that he may or may not follow on time), I worry for you to move out on your own with no income. (That is why many of the other places wouldn't rent as they have seen it all, lost rental income and had to take folks to court when a tenant has no guaranteed income). If you move out next week or next month (and are relying on him to pay you money for bills/living/etc...) what if he doesn't follow through? Without a court order of support or your own paycheck, how do you pay the bills?
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:55 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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In your last post regarding mediators my advice was it works as long as both parties are on board. I don't' think that is the case here.

Its not uncommon AT ALL for attorneys to advise not to get a job in the midst of a divorce. It will affect your spousal settlement.

I think like shootingstar1 - At this point get over the penny pinching you are risking the rest of your life with trying to mediate with your A. I question whether moving out is the right thing to do as well. I think you need the guidance of an attorney BIG TIME.

As for finding a place to live cash is king. You may not have a rental history and are currently seeing issues because of it - but most people will rent to those with no credit/bad credit with an increased security deposit.
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Old 01-24-2015, 06:21 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Liz....I know that some lawyers make use of Certified Financial Planners to give advice in matters such as this.
I believe that you need a lawyer, at this point, and I would ask that a financial planner review all of the numbers.

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Old 01-24-2015, 07:29 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
Liz....I know that some lawyers make use of Certified Financial Planners to give advice in matters such as this.
I believe that you need a lawyer, at this point, and I would ask that a financial planner review all of the numbers.

dandylion
Thanks, everyone. I sent an email to my lawyer last night even though I know she was gone for the day. I explained everything to her and told her we might be looking at mediation instead. She had originally told me to NOT move out of the family home but also to NOT get a job. She is well aware of AH's alcoholism and antics.

As for the financial planner, I had called my CPA 2 weeks ago and told him the story and he is already looking at investment opportunities(he is a CFP, as well) for me and trying to help me out in various ways. We went over the numbers, as well.

I really appreciate all the feedback. It's very hard when you live in this to take a step back and look objectively at the situation. I think moving out without some sort of written documentation from him right now is a bad idea. I have a feeling I will be sticking it out a little longer here in the same house and just keep plugging along trying to mind my own business.

If I move out right now, I can use my savings (about 6 months of expenses) but then I'd have to cash in my retirement and I really don't want to do that right off the bat. Even if I find work, it will have to be part time until my son finishes sophomore year because he's not driving yet(failed his permit test twice) and he has math tutoring scheduled midday. Next school year I can change his tutoring times and arrange a more productive schedule if I'm working. For now, I'm stuck in the schedule we have going until the end of May when school lets out. I asked the principal of the school and they just don't have any flexibility here.
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Old 01-24-2015, 07:37 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ShootingStar1 View Post
It may be a matter of making a list and then seeing what should be at the top of the list.

You need to decide whether saving money (i.e. not paying a lawyer) is the top priority or getting the divorce done is the top priority.

I don't see anything that is going to get him to behave in a reasonable timely manner about this divorce.

First of all, he doesn't want to. For lots of reasons, probably, including that he doesn't want to give up his enabler, his enabled lifestyle, part with ANY money for real, ever, accept that he is an alcoholic, acknowledge that his actions have consequences such as divorce, and on and on.

Second, given his progressing alcoholism, he just may not be able to come to an agreement, especially one he is not motivated to seek.

In some circumstances, the cheapest way in the long term to getting something done is to do it the fastest way you can. Given the progression of his alcoholism, who knows how much longer he will keep that job? Losing his job would change the whole financial settlement profoundly.

I'd still say just hire the lawyer and don't try to save pennies just to lose the fortune.

As to not getting a job now, those two lawyers make sense. You'll get a better financial settlement if you do not have a job before you divorce. So get what you can ASAP and upfront while he is still working, and be free.

You're sliding back into living in his crazy world and seeing through his lens. The point of this is not to deal with him - and a mediator will require that - it is getting this divorce done.

ShootingStar1
Thank you, ShootingStar, you made perfect sense here. I'm trying to NOT slide back into crazy world and was doing really well until we started these divorce talks a few weeks ago.

One thing he said yesterday that was really strange: he said something along the lines of, "I won't be able to talk to you...." Ummm, yep, that's the point of me moving out and that's what email and voicemail are for! He looked like he had lost his new puppy. It's amazing what it feels like to be free of guilt and knowing that I am not responsible for his emotions because I had no emotion at that point. I can't be guilted anymore, I won't be patronized, etc. I am beyond tired of all of this and I know it's just beginning so I have to put on my big girl panties now, LOL.

I heard him on the phone with a friend from work complaining about new company pay structures and commission issues. I know he's hitting a low point in his sales and I know that his job could very well be on the line in the near future. You can't sleep in until noon, go on binges while traveling for work, and expect that jobs and new customers will just drop into your lap. Just doesn't work that way.
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Old 01-24-2015, 08:00 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Liz....I have been at the hands of a narcissistic person, before. I agree about the "big girl panties". Except that the panties shouldn't be of the delicate and ruffly variety.
They should be more like Swedish steel.

If you don't want to get sucked into yet another never ending tango with him....I believe that you are going to have to play hardball.

Narcissists just do not do "fair" or "reasonable".
Offer them your hand, and, they will take your arm....every single time! And, with pleasure.

I advise you to flank yourself with tough professionals and follow their advice. Keep your distance and show no weakness. Never expose your soft underbelly to a narcissist.
That is always where they take their aim.

If I sound overly rigid and tough...just ask anyone else who has dealt with a true naricccist. (like, hammer, maybe...LOL).

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Old 01-24-2015, 08:10 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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As seen here - just because someone has been ordered by the courts or has entered into an agreement does not mean they do it.

I'd hold on to that 6 month of living expenses like it was my last sip of water in the desert before I would trust that man to make good on paying you your support during the divorce process in a timely fashion, if at all. Your divorce could take a year or more.
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Old 01-24-2015, 10:57 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Liz, I'll make you stainless steel chain maille panties (I'm a metalsmith) - just PM me your size.

Take the bull by the horns, call your lawyer and turn it over to her Monday. If he is complaining about the pay structure at his job, then they are noticing his lack of effort and starting to take action. He may be killing his cash cow sooner than you think.

It appears, knowing that, that time is of the essence. This is your wake up call right now, and there may not be a snooze button.

I'll get going on the chain maille....

ShootingStar1
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:31 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ShootingStar1 View Post
Liz, I'll make you stainless steel chain maille panties (I'm a metalsmith) - just PM me your size.

Take the bull by the horns, call your lawyer and turn it over to her Monday. If he is complaining about the pay structure at his job, then they are noticing his lack of effort and starting to take action. He may be killing his cash cow sooner than you think.

It appears, knowing that, that time is of the essence. This is your wake up call right now, and there may not be a snooze button.

I'll get going on the chain maille....

ShootingStar1
Woohoo, that sounds awesome!

So, I talked to my realtor who happens to be a very smart businesswoman and who is close friend of ours. She understands our situation and is very supportive and believes that I need to get out ASAP. Last night AH had a binge here at home, which he hasn't done in almost 2 years now. Usually, he binges while away or when we're away.

Her plan, in showing my AH a house the other day, was that we should list our house (the original plan) because it's truly the only asset that I have 'some' control over. Everything else is tied to him or his family. She thinks we can sell my house quickly because of the upgrades and the high demand area and she is working on the comps this weekend for me. She wants me to take the rental and get us out sooner than later. She is confident that I will have the cash quickly from this house. She's been with us through 3 house sales and purchases and has NEVER steered me wrong and always been upfront and honest so I do trust her advice.

She thinks that getting AH excited about buying a smaller more manageable house will motivate him to work with me to sell this house. The plan, then, is to put this house on the market, have me move out ASAP, and let AH put an offer on the other home. He will have to either use the funds from this house or use the estate money to purchase the house but that won't be my problem.

I need to pray about this scenario and see where my HP leads me here. I like the idea, I understand her ideas and think it's a great plan. The only variable here is AH and how unstable/stable he is. The sooner I can move on, the better.
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:40 PM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Liz,

Even if you decide to go for a lump sum in terms of a property/alimony settlement, in all likelihood your state would not permit a lump sum to be paid for child support. Child support is the right of the child, not you (as the custodial parent), and if he makes more money in the future, or if inflation dramatically decreases the value of the dollar, or if other circumstances should occur (for example, god forbid, that your son is injured or ill and requires very expensive medical treatment), that lump sum might not account for those eventualities.

Talk to your lawyer about it--you might not be allowed to do this even if you would like to.
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Old 01-24-2015, 07:31 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LexieCat View Post
Liz,

Even if you decide to go for a lump sum in terms of a property/alimony settlement, in all likelihood your state would not permit a lump sum to be paid for child support. Child support is the right of the child, not you (as the custodial parent), and if he makes more money in the future, or if inflation dramatically decreases the value of the dollar, or if other circumstances should occur (for example, god forbid, that your son is injured or ill and requires very expensive medical treatment), that lump sum might not account for those eventualities.

Talk to your lawyer about it--you might not be allowed to do this even if you would like to.
I thought I addressed this prior. I know that the lump sum would not cover child support but it would cover spousal support. I would still put requirements upon him to pay for our son's future expenses or to share those expenses until he's a certain age. My son would still be covered under AH's medical insurance as well, provided that AH remains employed.

I already know I can ask for a lump sum for alimony and, as a matter of fact, AH actually asked that we do it that way.

I think my lawyer will be able to walk me through this completely so that I understand the process even better.
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Old 01-25-2015, 04:55 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Oh, sorry, you might have mentioned it--I've sort of skimmed through the threads and I didn't see it. I've been away (and dealing with homeowner disasters--which I'd take any day over having to deal with an active alcoholic).

Good luck, and remember, no matter how much planning you do, there's always SOME risk involved. All you can do is to make the best decisions you can under the circumstances with the knowledge you have. Heck, if I had it to do over, I NEVER would have bought this house, which has been one disaster after another. Still, I had the place inspected before I bought it, was told it was a great house to buy, so I made the best decision I could, after doing my due diligence.

Hugs,
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Old 01-25-2015, 05:08 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Lizatola....I will say a word of caution....still go by what the LAWYER says (and the CFP).
You may love and trust your real estate agent completely. I don't doubt that she is a good Real Estate agent. But, don't take your divorce advice from her.
She is a real estate agent...she will always be anxious to sell a house.
And, she will be no better at predicting your husbands probable actions---even the devil can't do that!

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Old 01-25-2015, 06:07 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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I agree--you may want to move, but until the lawyer can confirm that it is in your best interest, I wouldn't.

What if AH doesn't move, or changes his mind on making the offer, or it falls through?
The meter is already running for you once you leave, and you may be giving up rights.

I would see that he moves first to make sure it happens.
You aren't the problem.
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:35 AM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
Lizatola....I will say a word of caution....still go by what the LAWYER says (and the CFP).
You may love and trust your real estate agent completely. I don't doubt that she is a good Real Estate agent. But, don't take your divorce advice from her.
She is a real estate agent...she will always be anxious to sell a house.
And, she will be no better at predicting your husbands probable actions---even the devil can't do that!

dandylion
I completely understand where you all are coming from.

She's waiving all her fees for me for both the sale of the house and on the rental. So, this isn't about money for her. The night my AH got his DUI, she was the first local person I called to come be at my house if I had to go to the police station to get him. She has been with me through all of this and isn't just a fly by night realtor, she's one of my few Christian life coaches(couldn't find a better term). She has a local radio show, is well respected in the community, and I do trust her. She also has a way of making my AH listen because she knows how to figure out how people learn (i.e. auditory, visual, etc) and she is fantastic with people skills.

And, yes, you all are right. I told my lawyer I was looking for a place to rent and she didn't say, "Don't do it!", but I do think I need more clarification from her if I move out and if I'm giving up anything in the process.

Also, now the homeowners whom I'm renting from are willing to let me do a 6 month rent, which is a much lesser commitment than a year and they are leaving me the kitchen table and the huge wall entertainment center. 2 pieces of furniture that I wouldn't have to buy used, move, order, pay for, etc. Talk about making this a tempting move!
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:38 AM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LexieCat View Post
Oh, sorry, you might have mentioned it--I've sort of skimmed through the threads and I didn't see it. I've been away (and dealing with homeowner disasters--which I'd take any day over having to deal with an active alcoholic).

Good luck, and remember, no matter how much planning you do, there's always SOME risk involved. All you can do is to make the best decisions you can under the circumstances with the knowledge you have. Heck, if I had it to do over, I NEVER would have bought this house, which has been one disaster after another. Still, I had the place inspected before I bought it, was told it was a great house to buy, so I made the best decision I could, after doing my due diligence.

Hugs,
You know, that might have been a private message I was referring to, LOL, but I know I talked to someone about it. Thank you for the warning. I'm sorry about what you're dealing with with your house! It's one of the reasons that I don't want to be tied to my house right now: I already know that both air conditioning units are on their last legs and that's a HUGE cost to fix! We just put 10K into our pool a few months ago and found that the shotcrete at the bottom was crumbling and had rebar showing and that cost us more to fix, too!!!
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Old 01-25-2015, 12:33 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Hi Liz,

I think it actually sounds like you are doing pretty well planning all this out.

You are attempting mediation, but have already spoken with 2 attorneys and seem to know which one you would choose if you go that route.
You have consulted with your accountant who knows the whole story now, so that's good.
You have cash that should last you between 6 and 9 months.
You have been working with a realtor who has found a place for you and your son, thinks your house is in good shape to sell, and thinks it will sell quickly.

Hopefully, you will get a better idea of how this would all play out with a mediator after your appointment. If you think mediation will not work after the appointment, then you have already spoken to the attorney and can pay the retainer fee.

In my opinion, Brava!
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Old 01-25-2015, 08:22 PM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Seren View Post
Hi Liz,

I think it actually sounds like you are doing pretty well planning all this out.

You are attempting mediation, but have already spoken with 2 attorneys and seem to know which one you would choose if you go that route.
You have consulted with your accountant who knows the whole story now, so that's good.
You have cash that should last you between 6 and 9 months.
You have been working with a realtor who has found a place for you and your son, thinks your house is in good shape to sell, and thinks it will sell quickly.

Hopefully, you will get a better idea of how this would all play out with a mediator after your appointment. If you think mediation will not work after the appointment, then you have already spoken to the attorney and can pay the retainer fee.

In my opinion, Brava!
Grazi, Seren!
AH is back to thinking he wants to keep this house. Oh, for petes sake. I can't wait around anymore. I put pressure on him tonight again to work on things on his side of the street and I will continue to do so. He is very interested in keeping this out of court because he feels that they will use his DUI and interlock issues against him . Well,whatever works to give me a faster settlement and a chance to move on.
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