I know that I am codependent in unhealthy ways, but I also know that I am kind, loving, and giving in positive and productive ways. It's difficult to find a balance sometimes. I do think the codependency "movement" can be a bit out of hand and unrealistic. Codependent No More and Alanon are not the approach that works for me, but if it helps other people more power to them.

I didn't find it a bad article. It had some good points.

Things can get really out of whack when we are unhealthily enmeshed with Active Alcoholics.

There are actually ways to be healthy.

I don't think a codependent attitude requires addiction within a relationship. For me it means I have to gut check whether I am being a martyr or acting in a way, or setting things up in a way, such that everything would fall apart if not for me. It's believing that I have to hold everything together, am uniquely qualified to do so, and it is nobler to do so than to ask or allow others to help.

Certainly my relationship with an addict allowed these sorts of thoughts and actions to run free. But even now that he's out of my life, I still have to think about my motivations for helping people sometimes.

Exactly! When I realized the way I "took over" in a lot of situations I stood back and reevaluated a lot of things in my life. Left my toxic job. Recovery is an amazing thing.

This is from Deb Caletti's "The Secret Life of Prince Charming" -- I have referred to it here before; it's really a YA novel, but it's got some serious hard truths in it. I like this section:

lillamy -

I think the heart of what you wrote about love is true, but I also think there is truth in a love that is eternal and unconditional. I know that passage from the Bible well and I believe in it.

I have been in love three times in my life. Although I am single now and those relationships are over, my love is not. I still love those people deeply and I want nothing but good things for them. One relationship in particular had a lot of turmoil, but I can honestly say that I've never loved another person more.

Unconditional love is not a weakness. You can love someone and chose not to be with them. And just because a relationship is dysfunctional and ends, does not make the love you have for that person bad or unhealthy.

Just my opinion.

^ +1 very well said Chantal88... VERY well.

I believe that if I were healthy at the time, I would not have entered into and stayed in a toxic relationship. That's co-dependency. It has little to do with love.

I believe the "Love is patient, love is kind" is talking about what love ought to be. What only God's love is.

I don't for a second believe in human eternal unconditional love. Matter of fact, I think that belief, just like the belief in soul mates, keeps people trapped in unhealthy relationships.

But that is of course just my opinion.

I respect your opinion lillamy.

Your avatar is me in a nutshell! I'm such a book nerd!

Seems to me there is some confusion because of the word "unconditional" I guess. There are no conditions on my love. There are, however, conditions on whether or not I keep you in my daily life. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I love you. It has to do with how you treat me. And, in fact, any decision I make concerning that has to do with the unconditional love I have for myself which is where my education regarding love starts. My Hero said "Love your neighbor AS yourself." I learn to love by loving myself first. (I am not referring the selfishness here... whole other subject having to do with perceived resources limitations.) Then I extend that to others the same way.... without conditions. Perhaps this is what those with co-dependent issues don't get? Were it not for this understanding of love, I could not love the father who abused me nor the mother I thought abandoned me. (later learned differently) I see a lot of anger and resentment toward parents in particular on the Friends and Family board and its so sad. There can be no real forgiveness without love and without forgiveness the person stays stuck IMHO affecting so many areas of their life. I've come down to thinking someone who is co-dependent (using the term as its been spun minus dependence on a substance) is not going to understand me any better than I understand them. My only hope is that they realize not everyone has their issues and quit calling those not like them like them. It makes it sound like, as I said in a previous post, all sacrifice, etc, that comes about as a result of loving is unhealthy or sick and I will NEVER accept that viewpoint... and consider it detrimental and destructive. Pretty much what the article says actually.

LOL.. really... I'm a Meyers-Briggs INTP... nerdy in other words! What's the story on your avatar? Eeeeck! But I always know its you! ;) I think I recognize the (dancer?) from old photos I've seen but can't place her.

The problem with the essay is that "codependent" has a specific meaning, but the essayist, who is in the business of keeping people married, misapplies it to sell his services.

My agreement or disagreement with his essay is not about love, unconditional love, whatever, it's about him trying to position "codependency" as a trait that is fundamental to a good relationship, when codependency is a trait that is clinically defined by its very toxicity.

At one point he says, "one of my values is to preserve my relationship with [my wife] at all costs." After living in an alcoholic marriage, I think, "At ALL costs? At the expense of your mental and physical health and financial well-being?" Because, since we're talking about co-dependency, that's kind of what co-dependency looks like.

Also, we're all here on SR because of our relationships with addicts, and usually because they were so toxic we were driven to seek advice from strangers online out of despair and desperation. I really can't talk about "loving" my XAH without also acknowledging that our relationship was fundamentally abusive, manipulative, co-dependent, and built on a lot of lies and deception and extremely maladaptive motivations, which, by my definitions today, is the exact opposite of love. It's offensive to be told that my love wasn't deep enough or that my motivations for leaving the relationship -- or my tools and language for understanding it -- were selfish and self-serving.

I think that's where we differ. There are conditions on my love. I cannot love a person who treats me like dirt. Abuse kills love, in my life.

And I think part of why I supposed I'm guilty of bringing the word "love" into the discussion is that... I think codependence can masquerade as love. I think it did for me. I didn't love my ex when he was abusive. I was just too codependent to leave. And that kind of codependence -- that is by definition unhealthy and has nothing to do with love.

Yes, we do differ there. All the people I've loved, I still love today and I'm a divorced gal. They, including those without any romantic attachments.. like family members, aren't in my life today and I did have to go through a grieving process lowering my involvement with them. I guess I could explain by saying that I cut them the same breaks I extend to myself. My father not only abused me but tried to literally kill me three times before I hit 16 years old. I love him. Without that love, I could never forgive him as the frail, imperfect, human we both are. The kind of love I describe is, I think, most easily understood as a "mother's love" by most people. A mother doesn't stop loving her child when that child mistreats her. But, a mother also doesn't, necessarily, stay in daily contact with that child if they're abusive. For me, when I love, its with that same kind of love. Though, I appreciate other viewpoints and don't judge, I also don't want to be judged nor have words put in my mouth (alluding to what someone said) implying that I do, in fact, judge them... that's their own perception and issue speaking as I see it.

Turtle -

I think you brought up a good point. In psychology it's taught that whenever we dwell on the faults of another, it's because that other person is serving as a reflection for ourselves.

There have been times when I have yelled and screamed at people, said hurtful things, made disparaging remarks. There have even been times when I have turned that anger towards myself and mentally beat myself up. If I were to use Lillamy's requirements for love, I wouldn't even be able to love myself! I am at times abusive towards myself, but I still love myself, because I am human. I think that really is the root of unconditional love - being able to see the humanity in another person despite their flaws and struggles.

This doesn't mean that I go around loving EVERYONE. I think in order for love to be genuine it has to come from the heart and not be forced. But it does mean, like you said Turtle, that it comes with no strings attached. It is possible to have boundaries and love unconditionally.

And yes, there have been times when I've been really pissed off at someone and still loved them! Loving unconditionally does not mean being a saint or never getting angry.

I actually think it's an old actress but I don't know her name.

I like it because there's a very complex meaning behind the symbol of the woman with the snake/snakes. I like dark images or paintings that have meanings which contradict what people would interpret them as. Plus, the woman looks like the actress from Fight Club, and I love that movie!

INTP - The Thinker, I definitely see it ;)

Oh, absolutely! I am slow anger. I guess because of that strong "thinking" part of me. But once there, well, its really, really, hard to get over because by that time I've got soooo many reasons to BE angry.... but get over it I do though because it just feels terrible. The longer I stay feeling that way, the more resentments I build which just adds to my misery. And when I'm miserable I do things, too, that I'm way not proud of so then I've got anger with myself to deal with on top of it. Staying in that place is not loving myself as I see it. I'm, most definitely, not a perfect person... "saint"... but I've learned what feels good and what doesn't and I've learned it from "being there."

I guess I'm saying that I've learned how to be kind and loving to myself. In the beginning, that wasn't easy and I had to learn to treat myself the way I would treat my child. I wouldn't want my child to stay in anger because it hurts them. I began by saying to myself what I would say to them to help them pull out of it. In the end, I found that love is always the key... and I do mean always. Love is the healer. Love brings forgiveness and that forgiveness eliminates the anger and resentment.

Using my Dad as a good example, its pretty hard not to be angry with someone who's supposed to love you but, instead, has tried to wipe you off the face of the earth telling you you're not even worthy of the life he gave you. The emotions surrounding that have so many layers its hard to even address. But, over time, I learned this was a broken man. This was a man with a history that began long before I was in his life. This was a man who never experienced the love humans need. There was a deep, blank, place in him that constantly tortured him and his pain drove him to do horrendous things. I saw that it wasn't personal. I saw that if my name had been Mary, Sue or Kathy, he would have treated each the same. It had nothing to do with me.

Well, I'm going on here and will stop except to say that the end result of my eyes opening was that I could no longer be angry with him. I guess I learned compassion. I got rid of the "shoulds" that kept me from accepting, within myself, that I DID, in fact, love him in spite of his behavior. That was a tuff nut to crack for me. In truth, I loved my abuser and I had to overcome all the lay-person psychobabble that said THAT was "sick." But, the peace that enveloped me when I finally loved without conditions told me that .... no, it was NOT sick, it was healthy.

Oh, my goodness, this has turned out to be so long. I guess I was kind of reminiscing actually. I'm going to just leave it as is. But just took a long time to say a simple thing. Its not about "selling a service" namely marriages, its about selling an idea that has the potential of healing states of being that may wind up saving a marriage or may not but the people deciding will be better off in the end even if they go their separate ways. Its far better to live a life with love in your heart than it is to live one filled with anger and resentment.