What is gaslighting?
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What is gaslighting?
I'm kind of a "newbie" here even though I joined 2 years ago (and then went back to my Axbf). You all have been SO helpful these past few days and have eased my pain and lightened my heart some so thank you kindly.
Question about gaslighting. What is it actually? My x would put me down then say he was "kidding" or he would deny saying something or say "I only said that because you started with me first!" (which was a lie). Or he would say it was OK if I didn't attend an event with him then berate me the day after for not going. He would constantly constantly change plans at the last minute and say he never agreed to certain plans, and he always ALWAYS went back on his word about everything. I started feeling crazy.
Are those examples of gaslighting?
Question about gaslighting. What is it actually? My x would put me down then say he was "kidding" or he would deny saying something or say "I only said that because you started with me first!" (which was a lie). Or he would say it was OK if I didn't attend an event with him then berate me the day after for not going. He would constantly constantly change plans at the last minute and say he never agreed to certain plans, and he always ALWAYS went back on his word about everything. I started feeling crazy.
Are those examples of gaslighting?
torquemax777
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Yep! That's what the good people on this forum told me were examples of gaslighting.
Also, any time you start thinking, " wait a minute am "I" going crazy? I coulda swore....." And so on.
They pull the switcharoo on you leaving you to doubt what you know and believe, and it's usually just true enough that it could have actually been the way they said it was; but now you're so confused you just say, "oh well!" And usually go along with their story, and after years of that, its like you have been in essence, sort of (or maybe more than sort of) brainwashed.
Someone here said the term got started from some old movie where weird stuff was happening in a house and the lady's husband kept convincing her it was just her imagination. Oh! And Rosemary's Baby was probably an extreme form of gaslighting.
Also, any time you start thinking, " wait a minute am "I" going crazy? I coulda swore....." And so on.
They pull the switcharoo on you leaving you to doubt what you know and believe, and it's usually just true enough that it could have actually been the way they said it was; but now you're so confused you just say, "oh well!" And usually go along with their story, and after years of that, its like you have been in essence, sort of (or maybe more than sort of) brainwashed.
Someone here said the term got started from some old movie where weird stuff was happening in a house and the lady's husband kept convincing her it was just her imagination. Oh! And Rosemary's Baby was probably an extreme form of gaslighting.
Last edited by torquemax777; 01-08-2015 at 12:44 PM. Reason: typos
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Wiki Gaslighting - Gaslighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sounds about right. Never heard that term before, but it sounds like a pretty bad way to be treated.
Interesting how his crazy actions made you feel crazy.
Sounds about right. Never heard that term before, but it sounds like a pretty bad way to be treated.
Interesting how his crazy actions made you feel crazy.
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Jodie -
I've read several books about abuse and manipulation, and they talked about gaslighting. It seems your ex was certainly abusive, but what you describe doesn't fall into the "gaslighting" category.
Gaslighting is when someone intentionally tries to manipulate you into thinking that you're crazy. For example, let's say you go to the store and your partner asks you to buy rubber boots for him while you're there. When you get back, you tell him you bought the boots for him. He pretends he doesn't know what you're talking about. You insist that he asked you to buy him these boots before you left. He tells you he would never ask for such a thing and looks at you worried and asks if you're feeling okay.
Gaslighting is thought out, planned and very cunning. A lot of times people are abusive and manipulative without even realizing what they're doing. That's not what gaslighting is. It involves a bit of acting and the sole intent is to make the other person feel nuts.
I've read several books about abuse and manipulation, and they talked about gaslighting. It seems your ex was certainly abusive, but what you describe doesn't fall into the "gaslighting" category.
Gaslighting is when someone intentionally tries to manipulate you into thinking that you're crazy. For example, let's say you go to the store and your partner asks you to buy rubber boots for him while you're there. When you get back, you tell him you bought the boots for him. He pretends he doesn't know what you're talking about. You insist that he asked you to buy him these boots before you left. He tells you he would never ask for such a thing and looks at you worried and asks if you're feeling okay.
Gaslighting is thought out, planned and very cunning. A lot of times people are abusive and manipulative without even realizing what they're doing. That's not what gaslighting is. It involves a bit of acting and the sole intent is to make the other person feel nuts.
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gaslighting is weird! I mean all abuse is "weird" as in why would someone do that to another human...but I've read about gaslighting too and the whole thing just sounds bizarre. Does it happen often? Is it a common type of abuse?
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Free -
I think someone has to be a good actor to pull it off so I don't think it's too common. I've had it done to me and heard about other people experiencing it, but I think in general verbal abuse is the most common form of abuse. Gaslighting takes a lot more planning to pull off.
I think someone has to be a good actor to pull it off so I don't think it's too common. I've had it done to me and heard about other people experiencing it, but I think in general verbal abuse is the most common form of abuse. Gaslighting takes a lot more planning to pull off.
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Originally Posted by Chantal88 
Free -
I think in general verbal abuse is the most common form of abuse. Gaslighting takes a lot more planning to pull off.
I think in general verbal abuse is the most common form of abuse. Gaslighting takes a lot more planning to pull off.
I think she might have a gambling problem??? Definitely no drink or drugs, though she has never been a genuine person ever, I can say this with certainty. I'm not able to look at all the underlying stuff yet but it mate be required of me. Ugh. F*ck
Father is a sociopath type, impossible to get a along with and I have literally tried everything. But at least i have known this a long time. No drink or drugs, just very abusive verbally and physically the works. He is still verbally abusive and manipulative but I see through his games now and realize that i juts can't help him anymore - sorry God. He contributed a major part in my depression, could not get away from him.
As for my mother, now it is really difficult what she has been doing to me just for money based on the fact i spent most of my childhood protecting her and a lot of my life since worrying about them both in general, even when the times were good. FML. help me God.
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Chantal, I take gaslighting in a broader sense, and view it as a fairly common accurance with addictions. "No, I haven't been drinking/using." And then turning it around that we're so untrusting for no reason. I really did wind up doubting myself and my sense of reality.
Jodie, some of that may be gaslighting, some may not. Thanks to recovery I'm finding balance and sanity, even from this.
Here are a couple of good threads on it:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...over-edge.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...slighting.html
On the second thread, Hammer has posted some great links for info on it and how to deal with it.
Jodie, some of that may be gaslighting, some may not. Thanks to recovery I'm finding balance and sanity, even from this.
Here are a couple of good threads on it:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...over-edge.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...slighting.html
On the second thread, Hammer has posted some great links for info on it and how to deal with it.
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Gosh, my abf will say something, and I'll ask why he said that and then he'll say, "say what?" And so I'd repeat it, and he'll say "I would never say that to you"... And of course, the next day, he has forgotten the entire conversation! I just chalk it up to the jeckel and Hyde syndrome. Hmmm...
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Gas lighting is a creepy concept.
Look, drunk is drunk. The big alcoholics I know simply didn't know what they did or said. Not by some creepy gas lighting intentions. Most admit to reaching blackout levels of drinking on a regular basis and the more it progressed the quicker they'd black out. Another way to say it is they didn't have to drink as much before they were already blacked out. I didn't say passed out. They were basically completely sober acting/looking to non drinkers but they were in fact blacked out.
Look, drunk is drunk. The big alcoholics I know simply didn't know what they did or said. Not by some creepy gas lighting intentions. Most admit to reaching blackout levels of drinking on a regular basis and the more it progressed the quicker they'd black out. Another way to say it is they didn't have to drink as much before they were already blacked out. I didn't say passed out. They were basically completely sober acting/looking to non drinkers but they were in fact blacked out.
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keepingthefaith -
Sometimes terms can be applied differently depending on the culture. The books I read were psychology books written by therapists, so their definition of "gaslighting" might be different than how it is commonly used in the addiction community.
I do think that there are forms of manipulation and abuse that make you second guess your perception. And certainly with addiction there is a lot of denial and lying. But I hesitate to call denial and lying "gaslighting". And like Shellcrusher pointed out, most alcoholics honestly don't remember what they did while they were drunk. This is not an attempt at making you feel crazy.
The danger in labeling all denial and lying "gaslighting" is that it for one diminishes the intent behind the original definition. There have been times where I have lied when questioned about something. I think everyone has. This was not because I was trying to make the other person feel crazy, but rather because I was probably ashamed of my actions.
I can't comment on how "gaslighting" is used within the addiction/codependent community because I am unfamiliar with that definition. But within psychology it defines a specific behavior with a direct intent.
Sometimes terms can be applied differently depending on the culture. The books I read were psychology books written by therapists, so their definition of "gaslighting" might be different than how it is commonly used in the addiction community.
I do think that there are forms of manipulation and abuse that make you second guess your perception. And certainly with addiction there is a lot of denial and lying. But I hesitate to call denial and lying "gaslighting". And like Shellcrusher pointed out, most alcoholics honestly don't remember what they did while they were drunk. This is not an attempt at making you feel crazy.
The danger in labeling all denial and lying "gaslighting" is that it for one diminishes the intent behind the original definition. There have been times where I have lied when questioned about something. I think everyone has. This was not because I was trying to make the other person feel crazy, but rather because I was probably ashamed of my actions.
I can't comment on how "gaslighting" is used within the addiction/codependent community because I am unfamiliar with that definition. But within psychology it defines a specific behavior with a direct intent.
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My mom is a very difficult person, probably NPD or Histrionic or some other dramatic personality disorder according to my old counselor. This is one of her best tricks in her arsenal. I've only seen it used in person as an actual abuse tactic by people with PDs, or by people denying physical abuse, like a parent denying having hit a child to the child and telling she child she is dramatic and weak.
Here's a really easy, not so serious version of gaslighting. My mom likes to jerk my chain about money, and because I'm an idiot it took me a really long time to learn not to trust her on money issues at all. I got a new grown-up job about five years ago and my mom offered to help me buy some work clothes -- like, offered in front of other people at a ball game, which they thought was very generous. She told me to go buy clothes and she would pay me back. So I went out and bought a modest amount of clothing and came back and told her the dollar amount and she scoffed at me and said I was nuts, that she never promised me anything. Left me holding the bill which I paid off over time, and then told my family I was always looking for handouts, which gets her a lot of attention and sympathy. This happened at the beginning of my recovery process and I was beginning to identify and name some of the dysfunction, and I remember being hurt, but almost being amused by it too, like, "The old crow got me again! Get it together, Florence!"
My NPD ex was also really good at it. He used it as a way to get away with his narcissistic behavior and leave everyone else holding the bag. Like cheating and not even trying to hide it, then calling his partner paranoid and crazy and/or accusing her of cheating. Or stealing cash, but saying the victim was probably irresponsible and stupid with money ---- or blaming it on his minor child that was too young to defend himself. (Child: I didn't take any money. Dad: You probably did it; you're grounded.)
It works over time, so you're always trying to prove to YOUR ABUSER that you aren't crazy and paranoid and weak.
For most PDs, like alcoholics, I think it's more about looking good in a moment then not wanting to follow through on whatever they think makes them look good -- or conversely, knowing they did something taboo or wrong and denying it so they can maintain status in their own minds. Always at the expense of someone else's peace of mind. It's part of a toolbox of abuse methods that helps the abuser maintain power other others, and usually involves triangulation and intense denial. Shaming and guilting their victim makes it especially effective -- my mom knows that to tell my sisters and father that I'm unloading all my financial burdens on her feeds right into the guilt I have about becoming a teen parent... fifteen years ago.
It's not just about lying or denial, there is a social, power, or emotional payoff for the gaslighter. We're talking sociopaths and other really emotionally deregulated people here.
Here's a really easy, not so serious version of gaslighting. My mom likes to jerk my chain about money, and because I'm an idiot it took me a really long time to learn not to trust her on money issues at all. I got a new grown-up job about five years ago and my mom offered to help me buy some work clothes -- like, offered in front of other people at a ball game, which they thought was very generous. She told me to go buy clothes and she would pay me back. So I went out and bought a modest amount of clothing and came back and told her the dollar amount and she scoffed at me and said I was nuts, that she never promised me anything. Left me holding the bill which I paid off over time, and then told my family I was always looking for handouts, which gets her a lot of attention and sympathy. This happened at the beginning of my recovery process and I was beginning to identify and name some of the dysfunction, and I remember being hurt, but almost being amused by it too, like, "The old crow got me again! Get it together, Florence!"
My NPD ex was also really good at it. He used it as a way to get away with his narcissistic behavior and leave everyone else holding the bag. Like cheating and not even trying to hide it, then calling his partner paranoid and crazy and/or accusing her of cheating. Or stealing cash, but saying the victim was probably irresponsible and stupid with money ---- or blaming it on his minor child that was too young to defend himself. (Child: I didn't take any money. Dad: You probably did it; you're grounded.)
It works over time, so you're always trying to prove to YOUR ABUSER that you aren't crazy and paranoid and weak.
For most PDs, like alcoholics, I think it's more about looking good in a moment then not wanting to follow through on whatever they think makes them look good -- or conversely, knowing they did something taboo or wrong and denying it so they can maintain status in their own minds. Always at the expense of someone else's peace of mind. It's part of a toolbox of abuse methods that helps the abuser maintain power other others, and usually involves triangulation and intense denial. Shaming and guilting their victim makes it especially effective -- my mom knows that to tell my sisters and father that I'm unloading all my financial burdens on her feeds right into the guilt I have about becoming a teen parent... fifteen years ago.
It's not just about lying or denial, there is a social, power, or emotional payoff for the gaslighter. We're talking sociopaths and other really emotionally deregulated people here.
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My NPD ex was also really good at it. He used it as a way to get away with his narcissistic behavior and leave everyone else holding the bag. Like cheating and not even trying to hide it, then calling his partner paranoid and crazy and/or accusing her of cheating. Or stealing cash, but saying the victim was probably irresponsible and stupid with money...
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Florence -
My ex (who was not an addict) was very abusive and used to hit me. A few days later he would see my bruise and ask me where I got it. When I would tell him he gave it to me, he would deny it and would be in complete denial. Before I started reading about abuse I used to think that he must have a split personality or something, but later I did researched and realized it was "gaslighting".
I have a cousin who told me about an incident with her boyfriend. They got into a fight at a restaurant. She left but before she got outside she threw her engagement ring in the trash can. He claims he didn't see her do it (which I don't believe). Later that night when they reconciled, they went back to the restaurant and tried looking for the ring in the trash with no success. For days after my cousin felt terrible and he really gave her a guilt trip. Then one day he asked her to help him go through some old boxes. They were looking through them, when he opened one and what did he find? The ring of course! He claims it must have been from the "ghost" that he has convinced my cousin lives in the house. My cousin was of course relieved but also terrified at what the "ghost" had done. Now that is gaslighting at its finest! Convincing someone that not only does a ghost live in the house but that that ghost is also following them around to restaurants and digging through trash cans for lost rings!
Did I mention my cousin's bf is an a$$hole?
My ex (who was not an addict) was very abusive and used to hit me. A few days later he would see my bruise and ask me where I got it. When I would tell him he gave it to me, he would deny it and would be in complete denial. Before I started reading about abuse I used to think that he must have a split personality or something, but later I did researched and realized it was "gaslighting".
I have a cousin who told me about an incident with her boyfriend. They got into a fight at a restaurant. She left but before she got outside she threw her engagement ring in the trash can. He claims he didn't see her do it (which I don't believe). Later that night when they reconciled, they went back to the restaurant and tried looking for the ring in the trash with no success. For days after my cousin felt terrible and he really gave her a guilt trip. Then one day he asked her to help him go through some old boxes. They were looking through them, when he opened one and what did he find? The ring of course! He claims it must have been from the "ghost" that he has convinced my cousin lives in the house. My cousin was of course relieved but also terrified at what the "ghost" had done. Now that is gaslighting at its finest! Convincing someone that not only does a ghost live in the house but that that ghost is also following them around to restaurants and digging through trash cans for lost rings!
Did I mention my cousin's bf is an a$$hole?
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Originally Posted by Florence
My mom is a very difficult person, probably NPD or Histrionic or some other dramatic personality disorder according to my old counselor. This is one of her best tricks in her arsenal. I've only seen it used in person as an actual abuse tactic by people with PDs, or by people denying physical abuse, like a parent denying having hit a child to the child and telling she child she is dramatic and weak.
Here's a really easy, not so serious version of gaslighting. My mom likes to jerk my chain about money, and because I'm an idiot it took me a really long time to learn not to trust her on money issues at all. I got a new grown-up job about five years ago and my mom offered to help me buy some work clothes -- like, offered in front of other people at a ball game, which they thought was very generous. She told me to go buy clothes and she would pay me back. So I went out and bought a modest amount of clothing and came back and told her the dollar amount and she scoffed at me and said I was nuts, that she never promised me anything. Left me holding the bill which I paid off over time, and then told my family I was always looking for handouts, which gets her a lot of attention and sympathy. This happened at the beginning of my recovery process and I was beginning to identify and name some of the dysfunction, and I remember being hurt, but almost being amused by it too, like, "The old crow got me again! Get it together, Florence!"
My NPD ex was also really good at it. He used it as a way to get away with his narcissistic behavior and leave everyone else holding the bag. Like cheating and not even trying to hide it, then calling his partner paranoid and crazy and/or accusing her of cheating. Or stealing cash, but saying the victim was probably irresponsible and stupid with money ---- or blaming it on his minor child that was too young to defend himself. (Child: I didn't take any money. Dad: You probably did it; you're grounded.)
It works over time, so you're always trying to prove to YOUR ABUSER that you aren't crazy and paranoid and weak.
For most PDs, like alcoholics, I think it's more about looking good in a moment then not wanting to follow through on whatever they think makes them look good -- or conversely, knowing they did something taboo or wrong and denying it so they can maintain status in their own minds. Always at the expense of someone else's peace of mind. It's part of a toolbox of abuse methods that helps the abuser maintain power other others, and usually involves triangulation and intense denial. Shaming and guilting their victim makes it especially effective -- my mom knows that to tell my sisters and father that I'm unloading all my financial burdens on her feeds right into the guilt I have about becoming a teen parent... fifteen years ago.
It's not just about lying or denial, there is a social, power, or emotional payoff for the gaslighter. We're talking sociopaths and other really emotionally deregulated people here.
Here's a really easy, not so serious version of gaslighting. My mom likes to jerk my chain about money, and because I'm an idiot it took me a really long time to learn not to trust her on money issues at all. I got a new grown-up job about five years ago and my mom offered to help me buy some work clothes -- like, offered in front of other people at a ball game, which they thought was very generous. She told me to go buy clothes and she would pay me back. So I went out and bought a modest amount of clothing and came back and told her the dollar amount and she scoffed at me and said I was nuts, that she never promised me anything. Left me holding the bill which I paid off over time, and then told my family I was always looking for handouts, which gets her a lot of attention and sympathy. This happened at the beginning of my recovery process and I was beginning to identify and name some of the dysfunction, and I remember being hurt, but almost being amused by it too, like, "The old crow got me again! Get it together, Florence!"
My NPD ex was also really good at it. He used it as a way to get away with his narcissistic behavior and leave everyone else holding the bag. Like cheating and not even trying to hide it, then calling his partner paranoid and crazy and/or accusing her of cheating. Or stealing cash, but saying the victim was probably irresponsible and stupid with money ---- or blaming it on his minor child that was too young to defend himself. (Child: I didn't take any money. Dad: You probably did it; you're grounded.)
It works over time, so you're always trying to prove to YOUR ABUSER that you aren't crazy and paranoid and weak.
For most PDs, like alcoholics, I think it's more about looking good in a moment then not wanting to follow through on whatever they think makes them look good -- or conversely, knowing they did something taboo or wrong and denying it so they can maintain status in their own minds. Always at the expense of someone else's peace of mind. It's part of a toolbox of abuse methods that helps the abuser maintain power other others, and usually involves triangulation and intense denial. Shaming and guilting their victim makes it especially effective -- my mom knows that to tell my sisters and father that I'm unloading all my financial burdens on her feeds right into the guilt I have about becoming a teen parent... fifteen years ago.
It's not just about lying or denial, there is a social, power, or emotional payoff for the gaslighter. We're talking sociopaths and other really emotionally deregulated people here.
Ugh. My Dad used to do that and still would if I opened the door to it.
One example is right after I graduated from undergrad and started working at a non-profit for very little money. There was no health insurance but the option to pay a "group" rate premium through the organization. It was around 350 a month and I could not afford it. He got wind from someone that I had no health insurance and told me to sign up and he would pay for it. So I did. He paid for several months and then made grumblings about how expensive everything was. Well, he stopped re-imbursing me and I just assumed that he would pay me back if I paid on my own. Months passed and I spent thousands of dollars from my savings account to offset the cost. After a while, I finally asked him if/when was going to re-imburse me and he yelled at me that my expenses were my problem not his and he was not going to pay for me as I was an adult. He went on a tirade about how entitled I was to think he would pay for my health insurance (that he told me to get, that he would pay for). Anyway, I felt like **** and could not wrap my mind around why he told me to get it and told me he would pay for it, when he had no intention of following through. I hurts that a parent works like that, but mine does too. There are dozens of other examples, some involving him telling friends about things he would do for me (yeah right) or things he did for me (yeah right). I chalk it up to: he is liar and thinks he can say whatever he wants to without any follow through. He wants the accolades without the trouble.
torquemax777
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Do you think they truly start to believe their own lie? Believe it or not, my ex NON alcoholic husband was an expert in this field, but I've always always wondered if he really started to believe this crap after a time?
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My mom is full blown NPD and is a master at gaslighting. It's basically when they tell you a different set of facts that aren't factual and make you feel like your truth is completely and wholly inaccurate.
After she met my now husband for the first time she told me he wasn't attractive enough for me. I later brought this up with her and she completely denied saying it and attacked me for making it up. "Why would you say that? I think he's a very attractive young man." When she damn well did say it and it was entirely inappropriate but she makes me look like the crazy a-hole.
Or after I had my first daughter she told me that she was worried about me because I got so big in my pregnancy. Again, I later brought this comment up and she completely denied it.
Or the time that she got physical with me. I later brought this up. According to her it never happened.
Or the time that my now SIL threw playing cards at me. According to my mom I was the one that threw cards at her and she adds all kinds of other colorful falsities to her version of events. Then claims that I'm a liar or have a bad memory.
When you're a kid though, people are MUCH more likely to believe what appears to be a sane and responsible mother. Not the kid that looks like they're in trouble for misbehaving.
After she met my now husband for the first time she told me he wasn't attractive enough for me. I later brought this up with her and she completely denied saying it and attacked me for making it up. "Why would you say that? I think he's a very attractive young man." When she damn well did say it and it was entirely inappropriate but she makes me look like the crazy a-hole.
Or after I had my first daughter she told me that she was worried about me because I got so big in my pregnancy. Again, I later brought this comment up and she completely denied it.
Or the time that she got physical with me. I later brought this up. According to her it never happened.
Or the time that my now SIL threw playing cards at me. According to my mom I was the one that threw cards at her and she adds all kinds of other colorful falsities to her version of events. Then claims that I'm a liar or have a bad memory.
When you're a kid though, people are MUCH more likely to believe what appears to be a sane and responsible mother. Not the kid that looks like they're in trouble for misbehaving.
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To me, gaslighting is, whenever you are told that you saw wrong, or heard wrong so many times, that you begin to keep a journal, then you are told that the journal you keep is wrong also, so you start to walk around with a tape recorder.
amy
PS-- If you ever feel like this then the person that you are with is someone you most likely don't trust. Do you want to be with someone you don't trust?
amy
PS-- If you ever feel like this then the person that you are with is someone you most likely don't trust. Do you want to be with someone you don't trust?
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