What do you all think of this perspective?
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What do you all think of this perspective?
I had was going through others' blogs and I came across this one that goes against basic AA ideas. Personally, I feel that admitting that we are helpless is sort of an oxymoron. There is a discrepancy that many of us are aware of where we know that alcoholism is a disease and our A's have no control. And yet, we also feel slighted by their choice NOT to get better because after all, he/she is the only one in control of that choice. Why the discrepancy?
Reading this article validated something I have always believed. It is not that the A has no control, it is that he/she has not taken control. And the same is true for those of us codies. I can attest to the truth of learned helplessness as a preschool teacher with an educational background (BA) in child and family development as a social worker. This might also account for the child-like selfishness that we talk about. It is a missed and/or skewed part of development. Anyway, today that is my view of it. I'm 100% sure that even with this perspective I wouldn't be able to save my beloved. But it could help in some way for someone, somewhere... Apparently I cannot yet post links, so please forgive me for being unable to post the link.
Reading this article validated something I have always believed. It is not that the A has no control, it is that he/she has not taken control. And the same is true for those of us codies. I can attest to the truth of learned helplessness as a preschool teacher with an educational background (BA) in child and family development as a social worker. This might also account for the child-like selfishness that we talk about. It is a missed and/or skewed part of development. Anyway, today that is my view of it. I'm 100% sure that even with this perspective I wouldn't be able to save my beloved. But it could help in some way for someone, somewhere... Apparently I cannot yet post links, so please forgive me for being unable to post the link.
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HMA - You have hit on two of my weak spots. I'm both an RA (recovering addict) and recovering codependent. All my knowledge (I was an RN) didn't help me at all with either, though I KNEW the right answer.
It has helped me, tremendously, to read around here and see what others have gone through or are going through.
Yes, I was not taking control, but I didn't know how until others showed me the way.
I have several years in recovery, but I could not get through to my stepmom who died of an OD last year. Was it a failure on my part? No, it was her not wanting to hear me.
IME, we do the best we can, and we learn to accept that we are powerless over others. I can share all that I have, but if someone is not willing to listen, well, I've done the best I can.
I do hope you keep reading and posting. SR has been a HUGE part in both my recoveries.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
It has helped me, tremendously, to read around here and see what others have gone through or are going through.
Yes, I was not taking control, but I didn't know how until others showed me the way.
I have several years in recovery, but I could not get through to my stepmom who died of an OD last year. Was it a failure on my part? No, it was her not wanting to hear me.
IME, we do the best we can, and we learn to accept that we are powerless over others. I can share all that I have, but if someone is not willing to listen, well, I've done the best I can.
I do hope you keep reading and posting. SR has been a HUGE part in both my recoveries.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
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Weellll, powerlessness (which is the word AA uses) isn't the same as "helpless". Powerlessness simply means that we can't recover without connecting with a higher power (which could be God or the Universe or even an AA or Al-Anon group).
Alcoholics (and family/friends) are far from helpless, though. We can take the steps and do the work necessary to recover.
Alcoholism interferes with the ability of the alcoholic to act in his/her own best interest. The need for alcohol (and it truly is a NEED) takes priority over everything else. Those who get better, for the most part, have what is often described as a "moment of clarity," where they can finally envision the possibility (and the desirability) of a life without alcohol. If they act on that--if they seize the opportunity and go after it with all they've got, and do the hard work involved in recovery--they get well.
Alcoholics (and family/friends) are far from helpless, though. We can take the steps and do the work necessary to recover.
Alcoholism interferes with the ability of the alcoholic to act in his/her own best interest. The need for alcohol (and it truly is a NEED) takes priority over everything else. Those who get better, for the most part, have what is often described as a "moment of clarity," where they can finally envision the possibility (and the desirability) of a life without alcohol. If they act on that--if they seize the opportunity and go after it with all they've got, and do the hard work involved in recovery--they get well.
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Thank you impurrfect. I will most definitely be here on SR for as long as I feel too weak to leave him on my own. And it is so true that we can come from all walks of life with any amount of experience or education and still find ourselves here.
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As Lexie pointed out the word AA uses is powerless not hopeless. And though it may sound like splitting hairs, most active alcoholics would be willing to concede that they sometimes cannot control their drinking. It is this "tonight it will be OK" mentality that keeps the charade going, because the truth is - we didn't cause (obvious) havoc every time we drank. But every time we caused havoc, we were drinking. Until we accept that we are powerless over alcohol, the solution will never be perceived as necessary or worth the effort. The solution, of course, is to never pick up the first drink. Once the first drink is consumed, all bets are off.
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Originally Posted by LexieCat 
Weellll, powerlessness (which is the word AA uses) isn't the same as "helpless". Powerlessness simply means that we can't recover without connecting with a higher power (which could be God or the Universe or even an AA or Al-Anon group).
I'm saying this as an AA member by the way. I obviously don't adhere to all their principals and I'm not the only one. It racks my brain when I'm speaking with others at meetings who so blindly follow everything other AA members tell them and their sponsors. "Big book says this big book says that". Boo.
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We talked about powerlessness in my home group this morning (step 1) and as a person who is generally disagreeable (I play devil's advocate a lot, and take issue with at least some part of each step of the 12 step process) I have to say that the powerlessness is a logical thing for me and is not tied with hopelessness but tied more closely to the concept of the serenity prayer.
What things can I control? Myself, mostly.
What things can I not control (i.e.: what am I powerless over)? Most other people, the weather, other drivers on the roads, etc.
Can I tell the difference between things that are in my control and things outside of my control? For a time I could not. Occasionally I still try to control things that I have no business trying to control.
I do view addiction as a mental disability. I have never experienced an overwhelming compulsion to consume a substance to my own demise and I am not obsessed with substances and how they could make me feel. I wouldn't look at someone with OCD and tell them to just stop touching their mailbox so many times. Similarly to how ridiculous it is to tell an alcoholic to JUST STOP drinking. As with most mental disabilities there are scales of severity and I think it is easier for some alcoholics to seek out help and continue to receive help while for other alcoholics it's extremely difficult.
I have tried very hard to not feel personally slighted in the past when my AH has relapsed because his drinking never is and never has been about me. If I feel slighted because he won't/can't help himself then I have some issues that I need to deal with about self love and validation.
What things can I control? Myself, mostly.
What things can I not control (i.e.: what am I powerless over)? Most other people, the weather, other drivers on the roads, etc.
Can I tell the difference between things that are in my control and things outside of my control? For a time I could not. Occasionally I still try to control things that I have no business trying to control.
I do view addiction as a mental disability. I have never experienced an overwhelming compulsion to consume a substance to my own demise and I am not obsessed with substances and how they could make me feel. I wouldn't look at someone with OCD and tell them to just stop touching their mailbox so many times. Similarly to how ridiculous it is to tell an alcoholic to JUST STOP drinking. As with most mental disabilities there are scales of severity and I think it is easier for some alcoholics to seek out help and continue to receive help while for other alcoholics it's extremely difficult.
I have tried very hard to not feel personally slighted in the past when my AH has relapsed because his drinking never is and never has been about me. If I feel slighted because he won't/can't help himself then I have some issues that I need to deal with about self love and validation.
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Stung, I can understand the need to surrender. To say "I need help!" I like how you put powerlessness as it only pertains to what someone can or cannot control. I still think that admitting powerlessness might be counterproductive and it seems like an oximoron to me.
I fully agree that those suffering from alcohol have a sickness like a mental disorder. My sister became schitzophrenic in her early 20's. She has to be monitered and medicated. However, most people inflicted with schizophrenia become homeless and get in trouble with the law. Why? Because we have HIPPA laws and allow these people to make their own decisions because we got rid of institutionalizing in exchange for their "rights". So now, not only can the hospital not tell us anything about my sister without her consent, but she is also free to leave and stop taking her meds. Which, because of the nature of this disease, she decides she is fine and her family is just out to get her and the whole thing starts all over again until she is arrested and thrown back into a 72 hour watch period at another hospital. The nature of these diseases keeps them sick. Misery loves company.
Anyway, thank you for your input. It is hard to let go of all of the negative things that happen because of an A's drinking, which he/she usually doesn't remember anyway.... you're better at that than I am
I fully agree that those suffering from alcohol have a sickness like a mental disorder. My sister became schitzophrenic in her early 20's. She has to be monitered and medicated. However, most people inflicted with schizophrenia become homeless and get in trouble with the law. Why? Because we have HIPPA laws and allow these people to make their own decisions because we got rid of institutionalizing in exchange for their "rights". So now, not only can the hospital not tell us anything about my sister without her consent, but she is also free to leave and stop taking her meds. Which, because of the nature of this disease, she decides she is fine and her family is just out to get her and the whole thing starts all over again until she is arrested and thrown back into a 72 hour watch period at another hospital. The nature of these diseases keeps them sick. Misery loves company.
Anyway, thank you for your input. It is hard to let go of all of the negative things that happen because of an A's drinking, which he/she usually doesn't remember anyway.... you're better at that than I am
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A higher power might be nothing more than realizing the process of recovery isn't just physical, it is also emotional, mental, and psychological... and whether or not we believe in creationism, I think it's healthy to ask the question of personal existence in this life and to have some value with that. Maybe with all of the changing views in the world it could be helpful to revamp some of these ideas from AA.... idk... I'm just thinking out loud I guess. My step-dad went to AA only the last year of his life because the chemo center required it; he died of liver cancer. He quit cold turkey for a year before that... before the year with AA! Even while my mom still continued to enjoy her beer! So...I believe it's possible without AA. But I still think it's great to ask for help. That need for help is why I'm here. No one in my world understands like the people here. Social groups are powerful. So grateful for everyone sharing here!
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I like it when the skeptics & doubters speak up in meetings, I have tendencies along those lines too. My favorite share was a guy who just couldn't accept the "faith" idea- to him it didn't seem to amount to more than the equation "faith = hope - reason", the approximate higher power he talked about was "the universe". But the program was clearly working for him too.
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If you read the Big Book (which is where the 12 Steps come from) it defines a "spiritual experience" as a "personality change sufficient to recover."
That's the goal, here. Whether you are talking about alcoholics or about friends/family, it's our personality traits--whether those traits are caused by alcohol, our upbringing, our genetics or whatever--that keep us stuck. Logically, an alcoholic would simply stop drinking. Logically, if someone in our lives makes us miserable, we wouldn't stay with them.
We don't operate on logic alone (paging Mr. Spock). It sounds simple to just CHANGE your outlook, your actions, your responses to people, places, or things, but dang, it ain't that easy.
That's the goal, here. Whether you are talking about alcoholics or about friends/family, it's our personality traits--whether those traits are caused by alcohol, our upbringing, our genetics or whatever--that keep us stuck. Logically, an alcoholic would simply stop drinking. Logically, if someone in our lives makes us miserable, we wouldn't stay with them.
We don't operate on logic alone (paging Mr. Spock). It sounds simple to just CHANGE your outlook, your actions, your responses to people, places, or things, but dang, it ain't that easy.
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I don't think powerless means that they or we cannot do something about it.
IMO, the word "powerless" is used differently than what you are describing.
- I DO think they are powerless over alcohol, but they are not powerless over their recovery.
- I am also powerless over my alcoholic, but I am not powerless of my own recovery.
IMO, the word "powerless" is used differently than what you are describing.
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when i finally admitted i was powerless over alcohol (i cannot drink in safety) i became empowered enough to work recovery for my alcoholism...
when i finally admitted i was powerless over my son's addiction (i cannot change him) i became empowered enough to seek and work recovery for my codependency...
IMO neither of my recoveries would have ever happened if i couldn't take this step. i didn't become hopeless or helpless. i became empowered.
when i finally admitted i was powerless over my son's addiction (i cannot change him) i became empowered enough to seek and work recovery for my codependency...
IMO neither of my recoveries would have ever happened if i couldn't take this step. i didn't become hopeless or helpless. i became empowered.
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I'm with Ursula745 Powerless does not equal helpless.
I am powerless over the weather, but I am not helpless. In cold weather I can build a fire and wear a jacket. I can carry an umbrella in my car "in case" it may rain. I can follow certain tested protocol that may save my life in severe weather outbreaks like a tornado..even though I can not cause nor control it's actions.
Alcoholism is NOT a disease - Even the DSM defines it as "addiction" to alcohol and lists certain characteristics to denote the criteria for "alcohol dependence" vs "alcoholism".
Addiction is the "malady of more" It defies logic/reason. It is like trying to fill a hole (spiritual) with liquid (booze/drug/activity). The ground seeps it up and the addict "thinks" more is better....and the cycle begins.
All humans & other animals have the capacity for addiction. The problem is that addiction is worse..than a disease.
“There is a solution” According to the BB of AA (Pg 64) Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions. Resentment is the "number o ne" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have bee n not only mentally and physic ally ill, we have bee n spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.
I am powerless over the weather, but I am not helpless. In cold weather I can build a fire and wear a jacket. I can carry an umbrella in my car "in case" it may rain. I can follow certain tested protocol that may save my life in severe weather outbreaks like a tornado..even though I can not cause nor control it's actions.
Alcoholism is NOT a disease - Even the DSM defines it as "addiction" to alcohol and lists certain characteristics to denote the criteria for "alcohol dependence" vs "alcoholism".
Addiction is the "malady of more" It defies logic/reason. It is like trying to fill a hole (spiritual) with liquid (booze/drug/activity). The ground seeps it up and the addict "thinks" more is better....and the cycle begins.
All humans & other animals have the capacity for addiction. The problem is that addiction is worse..than a disease.
“There is a solution” According to the BB of AA (Pg 64) Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions. Resentment is the "number o ne" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have bee n not only mentally and physic ally ill, we have bee n spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.
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Helpless means lacking the ability to do something. Powerless is pretty much a different version of the same word. I can't stop an avalanche that has begun, or etc.
The AC and the family members of them all have power of choice to change. None of them are helpless.
Addiction however does make the brain process the choices a lot more difficultly.
The AC and the family members of them all have power of choice to change. None of them are helpless.
Addiction however does make the brain process the choices a lot more difficultly.
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If I look at alcoholism like a disease, which I'm not sure I do yet, it would mean that I view it similarly to high blood pressure, diabetes, or something like that.
There are treatments and interventions to help give more quality and duration of life, or to cure it altogether. If I view alcoholism as an incurable disease, then that leads me to treatment and interventions for quality and duration of life.
IF the patient chooses NOT to adhere to the treatment regimen (diet, lifestyle changes, etc) then in the medical world, we sort of let the chips fall where they may. We quit throwing all this time and effort into their treatment and will be prepared to treat their emergencies, because that is likely to be where they end up. Repeated emergencies. And we have hundreds of other patients that REALLY DO want to adhere, follow the plan, and add years of good living on to their life.
So I agree with this- they haven't TAKEN control. It's there for them to take, but they just haven't done it. The treatment regimen being AA or whatever recovery program, rehab if necessary, and a lot of stick to it ness. I don't know...that's my opinion anyway.
I do feel like admitting powerlessness IS CRUCIAL to recovery, especially for the A because they are so selfish and self-righteous that they TRULY believe they have the power to defeat this thing WITHOUT a regimen. Their logic is totally flawed and therefore they have to give this up (the power), in order to recognize their own delusional thinking.
There are treatments and interventions to help give more quality and duration of life, or to cure it altogether. If I view alcoholism as an incurable disease, then that leads me to treatment and interventions for quality and duration of life.
IF the patient chooses NOT to adhere to the treatment regimen (diet, lifestyle changes, etc) then in the medical world, we sort of let the chips fall where they may. We quit throwing all this time and effort into their treatment and will be prepared to treat their emergencies, because that is likely to be where they end up. Repeated emergencies. And we have hundreds of other patients that REALLY DO want to adhere, follow the plan, and add years of good living on to their life.
So I agree with this- they haven't TAKEN control. It's there for them to take, but they just haven't done it. The treatment regimen being AA or whatever recovery program, rehab if necessary, and a lot of stick to it ness. I don't know...that's my opinion anyway.
I do feel like admitting powerlessness IS CRUCIAL to recovery, especially for the A because they are so selfish and self-righteous that they TRULY believe they have the power to defeat this thing WITHOUT a regimen. Their logic is totally flawed and therefore they have to give this up (the power), in order to recognize their own delusional thinking.
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Tomato, tomahto. Don't take this personally, but this is my 25 cents.
When I was married to an A, and still loved him, if someone had told me to go down to the river, throw a penny over my left shoulder, and recite a certain part of the Bhagavadghita while standing on one leg, I would have done it.
Where I grew up, there was a psychiatrist who lost his license because he treated lifelong mental health institution patients with religion. The fact that they got out of the hospital and were able to live independently didn't matter -- he had used an unapproved treatment modality and was fired (and the patients, without his guidance, ended up back in locked wards).
When you're desperate, you don't argue semantics.
The proof is in the pudding.
Anyone I've ever seen argue with the idea of AA or Al-Anon has done so because they're not really desperate enough to try anything. And conversely, when you're desperate enough to try anything, you don't sweat the small stuff.
When I was married to an A, and still loved him, if someone had told me to go down to the river, throw a penny over my left shoulder, and recite a certain part of the Bhagavadghita while standing on one leg, I would have done it.
Where I grew up, there was a psychiatrist who lost his license because he treated lifelong mental health institution patients with religion. The fact that they got out of the hospital and were able to live independently didn't matter -- he had used an unapproved treatment modality and was fired (and the patients, without his guidance, ended up back in locked wards).
When you're desperate, you don't argue semantics.
The proof is in the pudding.
Anyone I've ever seen argue with the idea of AA or Al-Anon has done so because they're not really desperate enough to try anything. And conversely, when you're desperate enough to try anything, you don't sweat the small stuff.
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Originally Posted by lillamy
Anyone I've ever seen argue with the idea of AA or Al-Anon has done so because they're not really desperate enough to try anything. And conversely, when you're desperate enough to try anything, you don't sweat the small stuff.
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