NYCDoglvr

Projecting about what may or may not happen in the future is pointless. Good idea that they ask him to get off the phone when they're present.

Hangnbyathread

Not to get OT here, but you have sort of touched on something I think is very valid. Children need the perspective of both genders in their lives. And please don't think I am flaming same sex anything, or single moms, because I am not. But the point I am trying to touch on is kids need a good example of each gender in their lives. As I have gotten older, and I guess wiser, I get asked all the time to give counsel to young people. Either friends, family members etc. I at first shunned thinking I have nothing to offer and its was just more time management concerns to deal with. But I have come to appreciate that I can help from an outside neutral no ax to grind source for kids. And sometimes those kids need me to validate that their parent, often the same person that asked me to intervene, can be viewed to be at fault in something they tried to instill on their child. This doesn't make a kid love that parent any less, but it gives them validity that they can see that mistakes can happen and people can be forgiven easier than if the daughter fights with the mom over something. They end up trying to defend themselves against each other, because they always are trying to prove they are right. Kind of the you can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.

It is natural for a daughter to want to love her father. That is DNA. You need to find that path for her in a positive surrogate male figure if you can. Otherwise, if DAD is her example, your daughter will be using some misguided roles to set her course.

MissFixit

I just had another thought about your ex getting remarried so soon.

You write "when she kicks him out." She might not kick him out. My ex and his wife are still together in their toxicity. She is his sick enabling mother nursemaid and will not leave him unless he is broke. There are a lot of messed up partners willing and obsessed with marrying anyone. The line of enablers grows to my disbelief.

I always remember my driver's ed teacher's favorite saying and it serves me well even today, "when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me." I think that applies to assuming your ex is with a normalish woman who would kick him out for cheating. She has got to be pretty "off" herself to be engaged to any man in his situation so fresh out of a marriage.

hopeful4

In counseling one of the things they have stressed is their need to talk to me. So I let them talk. I don't say much and am not critical of their father. They know already.

I would NEVER ask them to snoop. I have told them time and time again they are only hurting themselves in doing so. HOWEVER, they are kids. Their father is leading a completely separate, secret life. Of course they are going to snoop if given the chance.

I have enough education with counseling and years of CR to know that I cannot control him, and to get through to my children much the way Firesprite said above, that they cannot control him either.

hopeful4

I do not believe she will tolerate him cheating on her. She went through a toxic marriage before and above all else has declared she will never be cheated on again. That is why I think she will kick him out eventually, he is not going to stop living his life in this manner.

Hang, I agree they both need positive from both genders. I will be thinking on ways they can be exposed to men who I think are a positive influence in their lives. I think it is quite important.

She sent me text a couple of weeks ago basically trying to put my mind at ease about my children being in her home. She said, and I believe this, that she will treat them with the same respect she treats her own children. That she wants them to be happy.
She knows about his past issues, he told her himself. So I felt justified at that time in telling her that she should think long term in what it is like living with an alcoholic who has a personality disorder. That it will affect her and her children also. That it is a hard life and not something to take lightly in making her decision on this. That is the best I can do. She is kind to my children and supportive to them, that is all I can ask of her at this point.

I think sadly she thinks that these past behaviors have stopped when clearly he is still talking to other women. I feel sorry for her, but more importantly, I feel sorry for my children and of course will worry about their future because I am their mother.

hopeful4

I do not believe she will tolerate him cheating on her. She went through a toxic marriage before and above all else has declared she will never be cheated on again. That is why I think she will kick him out eventually, he is not going to stop living his life in this manner.

Hang, I agree they both need positive from both genders. I will be thinking on ways they can be exposed to men who I think are a positive influence in their lives. I think it is quite important.

She sent me text a couple of weeks ago basically trying to put my mind at ease about my children being in her home. She said, and I believe this, that she will treat them with the same respect she treats her own children. That she wants them to be happy.
She knows about his past issues, he told her himself. So I felt justified at that time in telling her that she should think long term in what it is like living with an alcoholic who has a personality disorder. That it will affect her and her children also. That it is a hard life and not something to take lightly in making her decision on this. That is the best I can do. She is kind to my children and supportive to them, that is all I can ask of her at this point.

I think sadly she thinks that these past behaviors have stopped when clearly he is still talking to other women. I feel sorry for her, but more importantly, I feel sorry for my children and of course will worry about their future because I am their mother.

BlueChair

I think ages 9 and 15 are old enough they should respect parental boundaries or be reprimanded. Something is not right for your kids to be so curious over their dads texts and chats. Maybe they have underlying fears? But also if they know you disapprove of snooping on dad, why would they feel comfortable coming to share with you? Something seems off to me.

Also confused, did they read inappropriate messages to these other women? It sounds like there is a lot of speculation and projection your ex is doing wrong by having a female friends and communicating online. Lots of speculation as to what his fiance knows and doesnt, what she will do and not. None of this is your concern anymore. I say dont future trip, and dont support your kids doing it either. If anything, why not suggest they admit to their dad, and ask him their questions, and concerns about if hes hurting the fiance. Handle it in a mature way, not behind the scenes.

hopeful4

BC, the messages came up on his phone as it was sitting on the table. They were eating at a buffet and he had gotten up to get food and the phone was sitting right in front of them with the messages displayed.

Please keep in mind, he got engaged LAST WEEKEND. They have some feelings about all of this.

I will not be reprimanding my children. I don't appreciate being told by someone who does not have children how to handle my own.

That's all I will say about that.

GracieLou

I could be wrong here but I wanted to point out your own posts


According to your own posts they were sneaking into his phone and his FB messages. This is not a case of a phone left on a table and a text came through and one of the children innocently seen it and got upset.

By your own admission they are sneaking on purpose and reporting back to you.

I am not saying you are asking them to do it or encouraging them but you do appear to be justifying their actions. You can't control your ex but you can control your children to a certain degree.

I understand you want them to be able to talk to you but with this you might have to nip it in the bud.

"Dear I know you are upset about your father and I understand that everything is confusing right now but...I am asking you to stop looking at his phone, his texts and FB messages. These are your father's personal private business. Please try to stop doing this and from this point on I do not want you to inform me of anything you have seen or read, period. If this happens again then there may be some sort of punishment".

That is it. I have children and they went to their fathers too and it bugged the crap out of me the things that went on or didn't go on but I had to back away from it. They are his problems. Not your kids or yours, his. Looking at his phone makes those issues your children's issues which in turn makes them your issues. They are burdens that none of you need to own.

Another thing you can do is to talk to your ex..."I need to talk to you. Our daughters are sneaking into your phone and reading your texts, FB messages and scoping out people you are friends with on FB. I don't want this to continue as I am sure you don't. Can you please talk with them about this and I will as well. As an extra safety measure can you please put a lock code on your phone so they will not have access. Thank you and have a nice day"

If that does not suit you then text the new fiancé in his life this information.

My point is to take all measures to have it stop. It is not healthy for them or for you to know all that information.

I am honestly trying to help with these suggestions and maybe you have already done these and if that is the case, do them again.

hopeful4

I appreciate what you are saying. I don't condone them snooping but think it's pretty normal for children who were just told (and he lied about it at first) that he is engaged then getting texts right in front of their face on the phone from other women. They want to know what the he** is going on, and I don't blame them.

MY concern is only how this affects their living arrangement as I don't think it's quite healthy to be bounced around from home to home with women who they may form a bond with then that woman is gone.

While people on here may or may not believe me, this is not about ME. More how can I help my children through this, and of course, just to vent b/c it is upsetting to see your children's lives to be affected in this way. I lost that loving feeling a LONG time ago. I am actually glad he is with someone else b/c he is much more stable mentally when he is not "alone."

You have to understand, my daughter's best friend called and told her that her father and his girlfriend had changed their FB status to engaged. She knew BEFORE my kids. He is that dumb. They feel the only way to find things out is to sneak, and while I don't condone it and have told them not to, I certainly don't blame them for wanting to know what is going on. It affects them in a HUGE way.

I have already asked him to lock his phone. I have told him our kids have looked through his phone. I think that is going above and beyond my responsibility. I let them look on my phone, they look at my pictures all the time. It does not bother me at all.....I have nothing to hide. They know this.

I also want to point out that their counselor, who is educated and I respect, has told me NEVER to tell them they cannot talk to me about anything. They need that from me. They were telling me about it in how it affects them, not idle gossip. So I think I will stick to the advise of an educated children's counselor than that of a few people on this board who may or may not really understand. And, it's not my job to try to punish my children with they are with their father. That is his job, weather he does it or not.

BlueChair

Hopeful, I wasnt telling u how to handle your kids, but this is a forum and your asking for opinions. Also you came to the Craft thread recently and asked how it could be used by you/your kids to improve their relationship. I offered input primarily because of this.
Craft focuses on communication and boundaries too. My reply was centered around this.

I wont reply to any more of your posts, but know I was trying to offer constructive feedback and I wish you, your kids, and your ex all good things.

hopeful4

BC, yes, I look for any way they can improve on things. Unfortunately, he has a personality disorder and that is not likely to change.

I guess I am not clear on how reprimanding my children would help this situation at all, nor am I clear why that would be deserved.

To be clear, I am asking how to HELP my children, not on if they should be reprimanded on something they don't deserve.

Also to be clear, I stopped posting on anything on the CRAFT issue b/c I did not necessarily agree, so I left it alone.

Florence

I would just let it play out. You're doing all you can do.

All you can do is say that you're not interested in hearing about his exploits unless they really need to talk about it. But you don't actually have to *do* anything about it.

Last year, DS15's dad blew up his marriage and DS was really disappointed in his dad, learning that his dad was a cheater who was willing to sacrifice his whole life for some strange. There was really nothing to do. We talked about it generally, I let him vent. We talked about general relationship values and how we should expect to be treated. And as always, I reminded DS that when he's on his own, he can make all kinds of decisions about his life, and that he doesn't have to mirror us, no way. xNPD's wife, who confided in everyone, even me, during the crisis, took him back over last Christmas. It is what it is.

There's no great outcome here. This is their dad, and this is who he is. This right here. The girls will have to figure out how to deal with him, if at all.

Taking5

But you are washing your hands of this, "I can't stop them" you said. They are given zero consequences for snooping. It's pretty obvious your ex isn't going do anything, so it falls to you.

They need to understand snooping is wrong. If you give them some negative consequences for doing this, the lesson will be taught. Of course, this may just teach them to never tell you anything about their snooping, but even would make for a healthier situation, just MHO.

And yes, reprimanding your kids WILL help.

hopeful4

To be clear, I have told them not to snoop. This post, my post, was not about them snooping and the consequences of. It is how what is going on affects them and how it will affect them in their living arrangement and mental health.

I am not making light of it, but it is NOT my job to give them consequences when they are at their fathers home. That crosses a line I cannot legally and will not cross. It is how what is going on affects them in trying to navigate life with a father with a personality disorder and is an addict, and is also cheating on his fiancée.

While some of you are of the point this is none of their business, I disagree. He has taken the liberty of getting messages right on the face of his phone while leaving it right in front of them. Now he, and they, have to suffer the consequences of doing what most other human beings would do which was peek.

Their living situation involves his future marriage. He will be kicked out (as will they) if he cheats. So while I may not agree on how they found out, my point is, what is going on is MUCH bigger than them snooping.

atalose

I often think when WE think things are NORMAL they are usually anything but........

Yes kids are curious but they are children getting themselves involved in an adults business. Father or not, who he texts is none of their business and who he receives messages from is none of their business. His phone needs to be off limits to them and you need to explain that.

He just got engaged and you are already worried about her kicking him out because of his cheating ways - those ways your children are learning about because they are being nosey. I’d be more worried about what happens when one of your kids slips up and says something in front of either one of them regarding what they have discovered.

I think that’s the emphasis here, is to help your children NOT to be nosey – and for their own good.

((hugs)) I know it's not easy!!!!

Florence

I disagree about reprimanding. It's his house, his phone, his crappy boundaries.

It's hard for kids to figure out what to tell parents and what not to. I imagine what would happen if the girls got in trouble for talking about it and decided to let it slide when something more serious Mom should know about came up. My DS15 did this as a little kid, and it breaks my heart.

Hopeful can say she disapproves, snooping is not okay. Hopeful can decide whether or not to listen to their stories. But it sounds like the kids need a reasonable sounding board. I really believe kids with parents who have personality disorders need to have an adult they can talk to that can verify, yes, this is crazy, it's not you, it's actually crazy.

Trust me, when you have an emotionally deregulated parent, the negative consequences are built in.

Florence

Double post.

hopeful4

I disagree atalose. Again, this is not about how they found out. It was on his time, on his phone that I have done my duty in telling him that they have looked at before. It is NOT my responsibility nor is it even legal for me to reprimand my children when they are in their father's care. I did tell them that his personal life is his and they should not look on his phone. I have told them this several times. That is all I will say to them.

Their counselor has let me know the #1 most important thing I can do is listen to them and let them know I am here for them. For their own mental health and also so they know they can trust to tell me things that are huge in their life, such as good old dad is drinking with them in the car.

Again, their snooping is not really my issue here, it is the wellbeing of my children, which has always been and will always be #1. They have had enough negative in their lives this year to last them a lifetime. It's a shame their father keeps piling it on.

I mean no disrespect in my posts and know it is coming from the right place. XXX

hopeful4

double post