Book review, Lundy Bancroft
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy 
My xah is in a court ordered batterers class due to his assaulting me. I've not once spoken to the course instructor yet xah has told me multiple times what his instructors opinion of me is...
I often think of exactly what you've said LexieCat in that good batterers programs seek into from the victim.
I often think of exactly what you've said LexieCat in that good batterers programs seek into from the victim.
I wanted to ask about how he was doing there, and if I could talk to them. They told me "NO". That he was a client, and I had no rights to invade his privacy.
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amy
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I think the thing that we really have to remember here, is that no one will change if they don't want to.
So yes, there are programs for abusers to go to, but if they don't want to change, they go there and listen to stories from others and they walk away and feel they are not that bad, they can learn alot if they wanted to. Mine just wanted to minimize what he did to me. He always can home telling me that he participated and told someone else that they should not hit their wives. But guess what, he learned different ways to abuse me without hitting, which was even worse. Did I ever get hit again after that, YES. I was told he made me do it.
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amy
So yes, there are programs for abusers to go to, but if they don't want to change, they go there and listen to stories from others and they walk away and feel they are not that bad, they can learn alot if they wanted to. Mine just wanted to minimize what he did to me. He always can home telling me that he participated and told someone else that they should not hit their wives. But guess what, he learned different ways to abuse me without hitting, which was even worse. Did I ever get hit again after that, YES. I was told he made me do it.
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amy
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See the thing is I was so, so hoping he would change. This book told me he wouldn't, should have listened to the book. He never did change. He got worse. He could have killed me at least 3 times with the hits he gave me.
I don't know how many times I would say that he is so nice to me when he is not drinking, till he wasn't. He would never hit me, till he did. I didn't want to believe that he was abusive, but he was.
The trying to find out why he was abusive to me, while going through the abuse, was just mind shattering.
I would have liked to have shared some stories, but that might not happen, I do know how that is, I know how long it took before I started speaking out. I guess I just hope that someone out there who needs to see this thread, sees it, and remembers that they are not alone.
Thank you
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Ann Marie
I don't know how many times I would say that he is so nice to me when he is not drinking, till he wasn't. He would never hit me, till he did. I didn't want to believe that he was abusive, but he was.
The trying to find out why he was abusive to me, while going through the abuse, was just mind shattering.
I would have liked to have shared some stories, but that might not happen, I do know how that is, I know how long it took before I started speaking out. I guess I just hope that someone out there who needs to see this thread, sees it, and remembers that they are not alone.
Thank you
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Ann Marie
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I once had a case where the victim bailed her abuser (who had beaten the living crap out of her) out of jail. While he was out on bail, they went rollerblading in the park. He deliberately tripped her, then held the roller blade above the bridge of her nose, telling her, "It's a good thing I'm in that batterer's program, or I'd probably kill you."
I got hold of a report from his therapist in the program, who told us he was the second most dangerous abuser he had ever encountered. Needless to say, he had no interest in changing.
p.s., He was convicted after trial (and the victim testified--he also tried to smother her with a pillow, after which she no longer was willing to protect him) and he got 17 years in prison. And he served almost every day of it because each time he came up for parole I sent his psych evaluation to the Parole Board--he tested higher on the psychopathy scale than 90-some percent of the male prison population.
I still stay in touch with the victim--today she is happy and doing well. She easily could have been killed during that beating.
I got hold of a report from his therapist in the program, who told us he was the second most dangerous abuser he had ever encountered. Needless to say, he had no interest in changing.
p.s., He was convicted after trial (and the victim testified--he also tried to smother her with a pillow, after which she no longer was willing to protect him) and he got 17 years in prison. And he served almost every day of it because each time he came up for parole I sent his psych evaluation to the Parole Board--he tested higher on the psychopathy scale than 90-some percent of the male prison population.
I still stay in touch with the victim--today she is happy and doing well. She easily could have been killed during that beating.
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Originally Posted by LexieCat
if such an alcoholic gets sober (particularly if working a good program of recovery), that behavior stops.
OTOH, if the alcoholic is truly an abuser, getting sober might just make him a more COMPETENT and in-control abuser.
OTOH, if the alcoholic is truly an abuser, getting sober might just make him a more COMPETENT and in-control abuser.
Luckily, I've been away from it for long enough that it's not effective.
It is scary, though. I hope for the kids that he stays sober and recovers, and I also am blown away by how blatantly dishonest, cruel and manipulative he is. He threatened me on the phone, and has since denied it happened and denied calling me names.
What bothers me is that, sober or drunk, he gets so pissed off if people aren't adoring him and congratulating his efforts. He thinks it's ridiculous that I wouldn't trust him completely after a couple of months of sobriety.
I'll never trust him again, drunk or sober. I hope his recovery catches up to him. And I'm glad I ran across this thread.
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Oh, and incidentally, that guy I was talking about above? The guy who went to prison? He wasn't an alcoholic. He drank a small quantity of vodka immediately before the assault, to wash down a handful of pills he dramatically claimed he had swallowed. The pills were found in his pocket when the police finally arrested him after a several-hour standoff with them. IOW, it was all a show. He was planning to claim an intoxication defense, but we blew that out of the water before trial.
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A lot of times I see here that he only does that when he is drunk or drinking.
I would say that you haven't seen it "yet" when they are sober, because they are usually drunk.
There have been so many times that I felt I belonged here, with an equal amount of times that I felt that I don't belong here.
Just sometimes I hear things here that are just so outrageous it draws me back here.
I know it's an alcohol addiction for family and friends section. I sometimes just see so many things being written off as alcoholism abuse, instead of Domestic Abuse.
Sometimes it's like we tell someone,, it's ok, they are going to rehab, wait a year of so, the behavior might change, it's a dry drunk.
I always have to separate the 2 issues. Perhaps because I became a f........ wreck. Perhaps because I was going for therapy, while he would quit drinking for awhile. Perhaps because most nights, I already had my pillow and blanket in the car, so that I could lock myself in the car so I could sleep that night.
I know I am not the only one here. There are many of us here that are afraid of not answering the phone when he is calling, afraid to watch what you want to on tv, afraid to buy something for yourself, afraid to go out with your friends, afraid to leave your house, afraid to admit anything that I just said. Afraid to wear a dress, afraid to put on make up, afraid to not have sex, afraid to say how you think or feel. Afraid to have an opinion or a view. Afraid to be that person that you loved. Afraid to be "me".
I'm sure I missed a lot.
If anyone wants to talk, I'm here to listen
(((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))
amy
I would say that you haven't seen it "yet" when they are sober, because they are usually drunk.
There have been so many times that I felt I belonged here, with an equal amount of times that I felt that I don't belong here.
Just sometimes I hear things here that are just so outrageous it draws me back here.
I know it's an alcohol addiction for family and friends section. I sometimes just see so many things being written off as alcoholism abuse, instead of Domestic Abuse.
Sometimes it's like we tell someone,, it's ok, they are going to rehab, wait a year of so, the behavior might change, it's a dry drunk.
I always have to separate the 2 issues. Perhaps because I became a f........ wreck. Perhaps because I was going for therapy, while he would quit drinking for awhile. Perhaps because most nights, I already had my pillow and blanket in the car, so that I could lock myself in the car so I could sleep that night.
I know I am not the only one here. There are many of us here that are afraid of not answering the phone when he is calling, afraid to watch what you want to on tv, afraid to buy something for yourself, afraid to go out with your friends, afraid to leave your house, afraid to admit anything that I just said. Afraid to wear a dress, afraid to put on make up, afraid to not have sex, afraid to say how you think or feel. Afraid to have an opinion or a view. Afraid to be that person that you loved. Afraid to be "me".
I'm sure I missed a lot.
If anyone wants to talk, I'm here to listen
(((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))
amy
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I apologize, I think I am wrong here. I thought if I opened something up to talk about verbal abuse, domestic abuse without talking about the alcohol that this would take off. I don't think it really did.
For anyone who is reading this I do highly recommend Lundy Bancroft, all of his books. Again, I am not paid to say this or to advertise this.
good night
amy
For anyone who is reading this I do highly recommend Lundy Bancroft, all of his books. Again, I am not paid to say this or to advertise this.
good night
amy
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Ok, well here I was again triggered. Of course anyone in a DV situation wants to get into a forum about it, just like you get into a cold pool. Slowly, step by step.
Don't know what I was thinking. Perhaps because I have known about it so long and have lived through it so long.
I guess in a way I wish that Family and Friends would have a section just for verbal abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and etc, there are many more.
I'm not the person to suggest this since I still have a lot of recovery to go through.
I know how difficult it is to accept the realization of what you are living with. I was actually inconsiderate of that hurt and realization. I'm sorry.
I still do wish there was a sub forum for this, I know that might not be possible.
Respectfully
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amy
Don't know what I was thinking. Perhaps because I have known about it so long and have lived through it so long.
I guess in a way I wish that Family and Friends would have a section just for verbal abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and etc, there are many more.
I'm not the person to suggest this since I still have a lot of recovery to go through.
I know how difficult it is to accept the realization of what you are living with. I was actually inconsiderate of that hurt and realization. I'm sorry.
I still do wish there was a sub forum for this, I know that might not be possible.
Respectfully
((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))
amy
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Thanks for starting this thread Amy!
This book was recommended to me by another poster a while ago, and while I wanted to read it, I was also thinking if my H sees a book with this title he'll go ape sht. Hmmmm, maybe that should have been my first clue I needed to read it
I did find it at the library and read it for a few weeks before I checked it out because I knew I had to really read it, journal, etc while I was. What an eye opener!
I knew I was in a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship while my H was using. But since he got sober, things were getting better. I wasn't called vile names anymore, I wasn't being gaslighted constantly, he was nice most of the time. It can be hard to describe, but I really liked the post about them sobering up and becoming more competent and in control abusers. During the using, there was little 'honeymoon' phase. Sober, that became a huge part. But the fact remained if I crossed him somehow I would get an emotional beat down leaving me confused and hurt.
This book explained really clearly that I was still being abused. I could brush things off from others as well if you knew what it used to be like you would see big improvement. I couldn't shake how it was laid out in the book. It's hard to dismiss examples that were directly from my H's mouth. Shocking, really.
I have pages of examples in my journal of his actions and words that are abusive, I can't write them all here. Here are a few tho that will make me feel better saying out loud and will hopefully help someone else too.
-He retaliates against you for complaining about his behavior, switches to role of victim and acts as if you are oppressing them.
-He tells you that your objections are your own problem, when you attempt to set limits on controlling or insensitive behavior he wants you to doubt your perceptions
-He gives apologies that sound insincere or angry and demands you accept them
-He blames you for the impact of his behavior (reversing cause and effect)
-It's never the right time or the right way to bring things up
-He undermines your progress in life
-He denies what he did
-He justifies his hurtful or frightening acts or says you made him do it
-He touches you or puts you in fear in other ways (that includes breaking things, punching holes in the wall, mine likes to posture big, invade my space and start cracking his knuckles. That's scary if he hits me or not)
I also found the chapter on addiction and abuse extremely helpful. I can clearly see how my H is doing a lot of those things and it was hard to describe until I saw it laid out so well. This quote summed me up " During the first few months of recovery, a man's harsh daily criticism and control softens, raising hopes of the abused woman. She interprets this as conformation that the addiction did indeed cause his abusiveness, but his behavior towards her gradually reverts into being as destructive as it was while he was drinking, or nearly so...ironically, the backsliding tends to begin precisely as his recovery starts to take hold."
Thanks for letting me get some of this off my chest with others who understand ❤
This book was recommended to me by another poster a while ago, and while I wanted to read it, I was also thinking if my H sees a book with this title he'll go ape sht. Hmmmm, maybe that should have been my first clue I needed to read it
I did find it at the library and read it for a few weeks before I checked it out because I knew I had to really read it, journal, etc while I was. What an eye opener!I knew I was in a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship while my H was using. But since he got sober, things were getting better. I wasn't called vile names anymore, I wasn't being gaslighted constantly, he was nice most of the time. It can be hard to describe, but I really liked the post about them sobering up and becoming more competent and in control abusers. During the using, there was little 'honeymoon' phase. Sober, that became a huge part. But the fact remained if I crossed him somehow I would get an emotional beat down leaving me confused and hurt.
This book explained really clearly that I was still being abused. I could brush things off from others as well if you knew what it used to be like you would see big improvement. I couldn't shake how it was laid out in the book. It's hard to dismiss examples that were directly from my H's mouth. Shocking, really.
I have pages of examples in my journal of his actions and words that are abusive, I can't write them all here. Here are a few tho that will make me feel better saying out loud and will hopefully help someone else too.
-He retaliates against you for complaining about his behavior, switches to role of victim and acts as if you are oppressing them.
-He tells you that your objections are your own problem, when you attempt to set limits on controlling or insensitive behavior he wants you to doubt your perceptions
-He gives apologies that sound insincere or angry and demands you accept them
-He blames you for the impact of his behavior (reversing cause and effect)
-It's never the right time or the right way to bring things up
-He undermines your progress in life
-He denies what he did
-He justifies his hurtful or frightening acts or says you made him do it
-He touches you or puts you in fear in other ways (that includes breaking things, punching holes in the wall, mine likes to posture big, invade my space and start cracking his knuckles. That's scary if he hits me or not)
I also found the chapter on addiction and abuse extremely helpful. I can clearly see how my H is doing a lot of those things and it was hard to describe until I saw it laid out so well. This quote summed me up " During the first few months of recovery, a man's harsh daily criticism and control softens, raising hopes of the abused woman. She interprets this as conformation that the addiction did indeed cause his abusiveness, but his behavior towards her gradually reverts into being as destructive as it was while he was drinking, or nearly so...ironically, the backsliding tends to begin precisely as his recovery starts to take hold."
Thanks for letting me get some of this off my chest with others who understand ❤
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Thanks for sharing that, Breezie!
Yup, once we can start identifying abuse and naming it for what it is, we become much stronger. It isn't that the victim is "crazy" (a little story that abusers love to tell others), it's that the abuse has your head spinning, making you doubt yourself.
Yup, once we can start identifying abuse and naming it for what it is, we become much stronger. It isn't that the victim is "crazy" (a little story that abusers love to tell others), it's that the abuse has your head spinning, making you doubt yourself.
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I just started reading exerpts from this on another site...as a friend of mine (trained psychologist) told me that in her perception...I have undergone emotional abuse. I know that my middle daughter has been pretty disrespectful and emotionally abusive...but I listened to her (17 year friendship) and I was stuck in his home country where I could observe how the majority of men treat women...but I also know that he has done work when his children are involved in drug use over a long period of time...
I know that him telling me (when I got to Chile) that I had to ask for everything...but that he would probably let me have it was controlling and possible emotional abuse...plus he treats my cat poorly. I just read the list over this week...and was starting to wonder if it is my imagination or if it is real? I take a long time to even have the courage to look at these topics...and I am certainly not sure of things...and tend to 'understand' others...even though I have, apparently, not much understanding of myself.
I have always adopted a do what is best for the family (greater good) and my upbringing was that parents who stayed together were healthier for the long-term of the family (not saying it was or is right...but it is deeply embedded in my value system and world view)--and so I have done most of the work I have done in letting go and letting God....including going through the wringer for a long-time at the grief I felt when my mother and sister (after my Dad died...and my emotional care-giving abilities were no longer needed)--finally letting go of the cravings and compulsive apologies over 12 years...while in Chile (when one finally hits a worse thing or more scary thing in the present...it is easier to 'let go').
I came to understand that my mothers' silent treatments over time were due to her own anger and not necessarily due to me...although I have always been conflicted about that...as when I married my husband...'imported him from Chile'--she didn't speak to me for 4 years...that seemed pretty harsh to me at the time...but then things got better...and it didn't reoccur until my Dad died...and it was immediate. I admit...the trauma was great...because the change was immediate upon my Dad's death...but I also blame myself for having been too ignorant to handle it better...and things have continued to be very hard in my family...I operated on what I had observed in childhood...my mother hates problems and poor people and women (especially those from my Dad's family). The learning of the disease and how deep and baffling it is has come with wakeup calls...I used to like ah hah moments...but they are very tiring now...as I am so isolated.
I was and have been a caregiver for my whole life and I know now that my mother was emotionally abusive (I forgave her...the value of losing a child--a big part of my therapy was forgiving...although I focused on others...now working to focus on forgiving myself...and I just hope I can...that it isn't too late)...which is why, when mom and sis abruptly cut contact (don't even know if they were aware of it...but as soon as Dad passed) relationships that had included daily conversations (mostly me calling Mom and sis calling me) terminated...it was a trauma...so more work...and came to understand that not all people are as aware as I might be...I remember the moment my sis stopped talking to me and began talking to my younger (but the oldest male) brother...because he told me that she had never liked him before and now she was being nice...and he wanted to give it a chance...so more work to understand that I had no control over any of it.
When I lost my job in September...I started a slow but steady slide down into depression...and my husband was in Chile finishing a job...no money (but he hasn't brought in money for years--my savings and retirement helped us make it through the construction downturn jobs...and keep our insurance for a long while...but we hit bottom financially while I was in Chile...that was my last big 'good' idea...but it didn't work out...although my job over skype got him back here as he wanted...and he is very nice to the adult kids, attends their soccer games as he always did, and doesn't consult me on anything...and when I protest or ask why the big change--it is a big change from 5-6 years ago when I was going to a job that I had fought hard to get and he was crying in our truck as he told me and said the 'doctor' said he was under so much stress he needed 3 years of rest...probably not true...it was just the crying wolf...and I responded with helping and supporting him as we wound down his business). I have had so much go on over so long a period of time that I am drained and depleted...my brain is thinking much...and if it is...I have to make sure that I don't try to figure out what I did so wrong...because it doesn't and won't help. Am also working on my resentment...it tends to come to the surface after the crisis has passed...but right now there are several hard situations...therapist telling me that it is likely that I am being blamed by kids due to parental alienation over a long period of time (I was always the bad cop--he is always the nice guy...but criticized everybody and everything to me)--and the depression...working on what next step might be possible to feel better.
Amy55--thank you for bringing up the book and the topic...I am still reticent to look at the information but will continue to push myself to do so...when I am less stressed about day to day survival. I don't want to just have 'issues' because I am depressed and things sound familiar...plus I don't trust my own judgment anymore...but it might just be the hard place we are in and both working on different behaviors than the past--he got a job and I am working to not 'control' or 'nag'.
I question everything about me right now...and yet I know that I am the only one who can make things different...I worked so very hard on my marriage...after my son died, I was very conscious that most marriages (85%--read a week before his death in a magazine) don't survive...and I was determined that mine would and the amount of focus and whatever that has gone into that has been enormous...so don't even know what I can do now.
I literally know that I am powerless over everything right now...and that only my HP (God) can handle whatever all of this is...and outcomes. I am feeling more calm than 2 months ago...and not quite as desperate. I just keep praying that God will help me deal with what is mine and to let go of what is not...I have succeeded in putting up some boundaries to protect my health with my 22 year old heroin addict daughter...but I don't believe anything she says and I am just tired of waking up and waking up some more...feel overwhelmed...so writing here...but I still know that I need to do more meetings so after the IOP and the group I am being assigned to--mindfulness based...I have that on the list.
I have learned these concepts before...I have practiced them...I have continued to work on me...so going down this time has been very hard...as I hate to repeat process if possible...rarely read a book more than once...movies...same...but I know I need this and trying to just focus on the fact that the 'why' doesn't matter as much as what I am doing for me right now and to cut myself some slack.
I know that him telling me (when I got to Chile) that I had to ask for everything...but that he would probably let me have it was controlling and possible emotional abuse...plus he treats my cat poorly. I just read the list over this week...and was starting to wonder if it is my imagination or if it is real? I take a long time to even have the courage to look at these topics...and I am certainly not sure of things...and tend to 'understand' others...even though I have, apparently, not much understanding of myself.
I have always adopted a do what is best for the family (greater good) and my upbringing was that parents who stayed together were healthier for the long-term of the family (not saying it was or is right...but it is deeply embedded in my value system and world view)--and so I have done most of the work I have done in letting go and letting God....including going through the wringer for a long-time at the grief I felt when my mother and sister (after my Dad died...and my emotional care-giving abilities were no longer needed)--finally letting go of the cravings and compulsive apologies over 12 years...while in Chile (when one finally hits a worse thing or more scary thing in the present...it is easier to 'let go').
I came to understand that my mothers' silent treatments over time were due to her own anger and not necessarily due to me...although I have always been conflicted about that...as when I married my husband...'imported him from Chile'--she didn't speak to me for 4 years...that seemed pretty harsh to me at the time...but then things got better...and it didn't reoccur until my Dad died...and it was immediate. I admit...the trauma was great...because the change was immediate upon my Dad's death...but I also blame myself for having been too ignorant to handle it better...and things have continued to be very hard in my family...I operated on what I had observed in childhood...my mother hates problems and poor people and women (especially those from my Dad's family). The learning of the disease and how deep and baffling it is has come with wakeup calls...I used to like ah hah moments...but they are very tiring now...as I am so isolated.
I was and have been a caregiver for my whole life and I know now that my mother was emotionally abusive (I forgave her...the value of losing a child--a big part of my therapy was forgiving...although I focused on others...now working to focus on forgiving myself...and I just hope I can...that it isn't too late)...which is why, when mom and sis abruptly cut contact (don't even know if they were aware of it...but as soon as Dad passed) relationships that had included daily conversations (mostly me calling Mom and sis calling me) terminated...it was a trauma...so more work...and came to understand that not all people are as aware as I might be...I remember the moment my sis stopped talking to me and began talking to my younger (but the oldest male) brother...because he told me that she had never liked him before and now she was being nice...and he wanted to give it a chance...so more work to understand that I had no control over any of it.
When I lost my job in September...I started a slow but steady slide down into depression...and my husband was in Chile finishing a job...no money (but he hasn't brought in money for years--my savings and retirement helped us make it through the construction downturn jobs...and keep our insurance for a long while...but we hit bottom financially while I was in Chile...that was my last big 'good' idea...but it didn't work out...although my job over skype got him back here as he wanted...and he is very nice to the adult kids, attends their soccer games as he always did, and doesn't consult me on anything...and when I protest or ask why the big change--it is a big change from 5-6 years ago when I was going to a job that I had fought hard to get and he was crying in our truck as he told me and said the 'doctor' said he was under so much stress he needed 3 years of rest...probably not true...it was just the crying wolf...and I responded with helping and supporting him as we wound down his business). I have had so much go on over so long a period of time that I am drained and depleted...my brain is thinking much...and if it is...I have to make sure that I don't try to figure out what I did so wrong...because it doesn't and won't help. Am also working on my resentment...it tends to come to the surface after the crisis has passed...but right now there are several hard situations...therapist telling me that it is likely that I am being blamed by kids due to parental alienation over a long period of time (I was always the bad cop--he is always the nice guy...but criticized everybody and everything to me)--and the depression...working on what next step might be possible to feel better.
Amy55--thank you for bringing up the book and the topic...I am still reticent to look at the information but will continue to push myself to do so...when I am less stressed about day to day survival. I don't want to just have 'issues' because I am depressed and things sound familiar...plus I don't trust my own judgment anymore...but it might just be the hard place we are in and both working on different behaviors than the past--he got a job and I am working to not 'control' or 'nag'.
I question everything about me right now...and yet I know that I am the only one who can make things different...I worked so very hard on my marriage...after my son died, I was very conscious that most marriages (85%--read a week before his death in a magazine) don't survive...and I was determined that mine would and the amount of focus and whatever that has gone into that has been enormous...so don't even know what I can do now.
I literally know that I am powerless over everything right now...and that only my HP (God) can handle whatever all of this is...and outcomes. I am feeling more calm than 2 months ago...and not quite as desperate. I just keep praying that God will help me deal with what is mine and to let go of what is not...I have succeeded in putting up some boundaries to protect my health with my 22 year old heroin addict daughter...but I don't believe anything she says and I am just tired of waking up and waking up some more...feel overwhelmed...so writing here...but I still know that I need to do more meetings so after the IOP and the group I am being assigned to--mindfulness based...I have that on the list.
I have learned these concepts before...I have practiced them...I have continued to work on me...so going down this time has been very hard...as I hate to repeat process if possible...rarely read a book more than once...movies...same...but I know I need this and trying to just focus on the fact that the 'why' doesn't matter as much as what I am doing for me right now and to cut myself some slack.
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 26
Thanks for your support Lexie!
I went from feeling crazy that he was using to feeling crazy that he was treating me poorly. Of course I wasn't crazy about either. It is especially frustrating for me when he throws 12 step concepts out there that are completely twisted. I'm just not grateful enough, I can't let go of the past, I don't appreciate him, I only see the bad, I'm being unaccepting of his imperfections, progress not perfection.
This article explains invalidation really well and gives great examples of invalidating statements Invalidation. It is that constant invalidation that made me get that 'crazy' feeling. I can't remember if Lundy used the exact word invalidation in the book, but he certainly described aspects of it perfectly.
I went from feeling crazy that he was using to feeling crazy that he was treating me poorly. Of course I wasn't crazy about either. It is especially frustrating for me when he throws 12 step concepts out there that are completely twisted. I'm just not grateful enough, I can't let go of the past, I don't appreciate him, I only see the bad, I'm being unaccepting of his imperfections, progress not perfection.
This article explains invalidation really well and gives great examples of invalidating statements Invalidation. It is that constant invalidation that made me get that 'crazy' feeling. I can't remember if Lundy used the exact word invalidation in the book, but he certainly described aspects of it perfectly.
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Like you finally bought yourself a new sweater, but you sneak it into the house, Why? You are doing pretty good financially, but you need to leave it in the trunk of your car, till he left, then you sneak it in.
I didn't let myself have fantasies. But even seeing the reality of the situation and knowing the only thing I could possibly do was leave, it was still hard because of my own fears of the future. Alanon gave me the support to do it.
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Amy- please don't regret for a single moment for starting this thread. My only abusive relationship was with my first boyfriend. But I still remember those feelings well. I suspect many are reading but are not ready to share yet.
There are many times when I read here that I strongly suspect there is a lot more going than just alcoholism.
There are many times when I read here that I strongly suspect there is a lot more going than just alcoholism.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
Like you finally bought yourself a new sweater, but you sneak it into the house, Why? You are doing pretty good financially, but you need to leave it in the trunk of your car, till he left, then you sneak it in.
I didn't let myself have fantasies. But even seeing the reality of the situation and knowing the only thing I could possibly do was leave, it was still hard because of my own fears of the future. Alanon gave me the support to do it.
Obviously every argument over money, or what you spend it on, doesn't mean there is abuse. But when you are forced to hide reasonable purchases you make for yourself, for fear of the consequences (more than just an argument), that is a pretty strong indicator of abusive control.
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Breezie...that was a great post.
Amy--I am really glad that you started this...as it has helped me to try to focus on what might be the truth...I know my brain is avoiding knowing...but I pretty much know...just can't figure a way out.
Lexie...your experience here is very helpful...I feel like a foolish idiot because I am where I am...but I am working on things as fast and as completely as possible...and I know I have made progress...until my Dad died, my mom rejected me and my husband started talking about my family and the vodka they drank...I didn't even know I was brought up in an alcoholic family--sometimes I even doubt myself (although I did tons of therapy around that).
Right now, I am working on 'letting my children' be adults...it is incredibly hard and always has been...not because I don't want to...but because my husband has not been willing to do any of the work that I did...and so it took everything I had with the first and 2nd daughters...now that it is the third daughter...I am again setting boundaries to protect myself from going further down...she was able to get to me last Spring and I was like Humpty Dumpty again...and acknowledging my depression and what is true right now.
My naranon meeting helps--was cancelled due to rainstorm last week so am looking forward to this week. Also...one of the things I have always been blessed with is that people tend to tell me their truth about me so I am learning to not be so transparent and honest...guess there is a thing as too much.
Amy--I am really glad that you started this...as it has helped me to try to focus on what might be the truth...I know my brain is avoiding knowing...but I pretty much know...just can't figure a way out.
Lexie...your experience here is very helpful...I feel like a foolish idiot because I am where I am...but I am working on things as fast and as completely as possible...and I know I have made progress...until my Dad died, my mom rejected me and my husband started talking about my family and the vodka they drank...I didn't even know I was brought up in an alcoholic family--sometimes I even doubt myself (although I did tons of therapy around that).
Right now, I am working on 'letting my children' be adults...it is incredibly hard and always has been...not because I don't want to...but because my husband has not been willing to do any of the work that I did...and so it took everything I had with the first and 2nd daughters...now that it is the third daughter...I am again setting boundaries to protect myself from going further down...she was able to get to me last Spring and I was like Humpty Dumpty again...and acknowledging my depression and what is true right now.
My naranon meeting helps--was cancelled due to rainstorm last week so am looking forward to this week. Also...one of the things I have always been blessed with is that people tend to tell me their truth about me so I am learning to not be so transparent and honest...guess there is a thing as too much.
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amy, I hope you will come back and keep this thread going.
Sometimes the people you want to share just aren't ready or don't happen to be online. The thread was only up for a few hours when you concluded it was a "mistake."
This is important stuff to talk about concurrently with, but separately from, the issues around alcoholism. I've passed along your suggestion about having an abuse sub-forum, and the Admins are going to take it under consideration. I think it's a great idea, personally. But whether there is or not, we need to talk about it.
Sometimes the people you want to share just aren't ready or don't happen to be online. The thread was only up for a few hours when you concluded it was a "mistake."
This is important stuff to talk about concurrently with, but separately from, the issues around alcoholism. I've passed along your suggestion about having an abuse sub-forum, and the Admins are going to take it under consideration. I think it's a great idea, personally. But whether there is or not, we need to talk about it.
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Amy--you are leading the way...and I can perceive a great deal of wisdom here on this thread...just having a hard time facing that the invalidation has probably been going on for years...and also...never really understood the concept of emotional abuse until I was desperate in Chile...living on a construction site...realizing what the macho culture was and seeing my husband hang out with mostly guys from his youth who were no longer married and some had abandoned their wives...and I had been very quiet for many years as my kids were growing older and stopped telling them what to do as they grew older...and did not judge or opine on their lives...
I just suck at figuring out the primary issue to work on...have always been that way...so your writing and breezie's and lexie's and others is something to read...be triggered and to let it soak in (that is how I am able to take in new information...resting on it).
Thank you...because I had already told my friend that I wasn't ready to look at that part...and honestly I have no idea whether it is true or my imagination...but I do know that my therapists believed me about my Mom's abandonment...and that it is true I no longer have a FOO that wants me around...as my brother said when I finally asked him to let me know if he would welcome me at my niece's wedding...and he led with...whenever you and Mom are together...there is tension...I talked too long to him...but I finally got the message...he told me how he tried to help me once and took her anger...and he basically made it clear that I am not part of...
So the thought of dealing with this is so overwhelming right now...but it is good to know that the posting is going on...and I hope you continue...right now I just feel mired in all of my 'mistakes'...working on the eating addiction and the shopping thing (that my black & white group of kids/husband resented and probably blamed me for)--and just working that as well as feeling better.
I just suck at figuring out the primary issue to work on...have always been that way...so your writing and breezie's and lexie's and others is something to read...be triggered and to let it soak in (that is how I am able to take in new information...resting on it).
Thank you...because I had already told my friend that I wasn't ready to look at that part...and honestly I have no idea whether it is true or my imagination...but I do know that my therapists believed me about my Mom's abandonment...and that it is true I no longer have a FOO that wants me around...as my brother said when I finally asked him to let me know if he would welcome me at my niece's wedding...and he led with...whenever you and Mom are together...there is tension...I talked too long to him...but I finally got the message...he told me how he tried to help me once and took her anger...and he basically made it clear that I am not part of...
So the thought of dealing with this is so overwhelming right now...but it is good to know that the posting is going on...and I hope you continue...right now I just feel mired in all of my 'mistakes'...working on the eating addiction and the shopping thing (that my black & white group of kids/husband resented and probably blamed me for)--and just working that as well as feeling better.
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