MRomeo99

We're dealing with a dear brother who is an alcoholic. He is separated from his wife, and we have had custody of his twins for a year now. He and his wife did give us temporary custody, so that we could get them in school, and get them medical treatments and all that. He's been away for six months, detox and then living in a halfway house. Where he hooked up with his current girlfriend, who is insisting that he should have his kids back(she has kids, and went through a nasty battle to get hers). She's also an alcoholic, and has an extensive criminal record.

He wrote us a pretty long email during his amends step. And in that, he said all the things that I'm sure you all are familiar with. Basically he sounds like a complete sociopath. He cares nothing about anyone else, but feels he is superior to everyone, and can manipulate any situation. He's the classic charming sociopath, that can charm anyone with his ready smile and obvious intelligence. Beyond all of that, he is a very angry, deceitful and vindictive person. In his amends letter he self describes himself as selfish, egotistical, lacking in empathy for anyone else, argumentative, judgmental, apathy to all others, manipulative, irresponsible and fundamentally a liar. His wife tells us very scary stories of their life together, the children wandering the streets at 2 years old because he's passed out and left the door open. Them being burned, having him join them drinking and smoking at 2-3 years old. Anger issues, hitting them, hitting her, hitting the walls, breaking things, etc. He's been locked up multiple times for assault, DUI's, etc.

But, he claims he's been sober now for five months and wants his children back. Because we didn't involve the courts, or child services, we have no means of verifying his sobriety. He's decided they are his property. He will do what he must to get them back, and then we will never see them again.

The children when we received them, were basically broken. They were at least 2 years stunted in their emotional growth. We're talking five years old and they could barely speak or formulate a complete sentence. Unable to ask or receive physical attention(i.e. holding them when they get a booboo). Whenever they would do something wrong, they would go almost catatonic in fear. I.e. one would spill the milk at the dinner table, start shaking and crying, while the other would demonstrate yelling and pointing and shaming.

We're not sure what to do. His drunk self is a pretty despicable human being. But how much of that is him, and how much of that is his disease? We don't want to keep them away from their father if he is truly better. But if it's just a manipulation to get his property, then what? The court systems always appreciate the superior rights of the biological parents, even if we're 10x the parents they are. We have no way of knowing when he is drinking, he hid a daily drinking habit for fifteen years by keeping everyone very distant. Our concern is if they go back with him, they'll be gone, they'll be cutoff from all contact with us, with their temporary siblings, and with an extended family that loves them and values them. And they'll end up in his world, where he has no friends, no family, no support system, just the new girlfriend.

Maybe I'm just venting, maybe I'm just trying to figure out what to do. How much of the nasty behaviors are due to the alcoholism versus him just not being a good person any longer? I just don't know. thanks for listening.

ladyscribbler

Wow. That is terrifying.
Why would the children's mother not be able to get custody? Sounds like there is a lot of documentation of his criminal behavior and neglect/abuse of the children and of her. If he is living with someone else and has abandoned the family it might be up to her to file for divorce and deal with the custody issue.
Sounds like you and your wife are wonderful, caring people. Thank goodness those children had your family to take them in and nurture them. Whatever else happens, you have been a positive force in their lives and that means a lot.

Hope7726

I don't know either. When you have been lied to so many times, you have no way of distinguishing what was true and what was a lie. So you feel like it was all lies. When your loved one becomes an A and you have seen them do the most unimaginable, horrible, hateful, and unacceptable things, you wonder, maybe THIS is who they are. Maybe the person they used to be is the impostor.

Raider

I would lie, cheat, steal, enter the witness protection program or anything else I could think of to keep custody of those poor children. He is a lying alcoholic. I know. I am one.

I am so sorry.

martina12

At the end of the day you have to put the children's best interests first?
Is it in their best interests to stay with you in a stable family setting or with their father in a new setting that isn't yet proven to be settled and long term?
I personally think children thrive best in stable loving routine home lives rather than trying to place children with their biological parents just because they are the biological parents...I'm not a professional at this just a parent and a secondary school teacher with 25 years experience...

LexieCat

Hold onto that letter, those are admissions of his behavior in the past. I think most courts would be pretty cautious about returning custody to him without a thorough evaluation.

martina12

Apologies..I have just re-read my above post..placing children with their biological parents is of course the most obvious choice. Yikes just digging myself in here sorry..

MRomeo99

The mother theoretically could get custody. But she's very young. She got pregnant at 17(he was 27), yet another issue. As a last resort we would probably just buy a secondary house, and let her live there with the children. While we are no millionaires we do have financial resources. She is willing to terminate her rights so that we can adopt.

The problem is, it doesn't matter if we are the "more" fit parents, it only matters that the father is technically fit to be a parent. So if it goes to court, I think he'll at least win a case plan. My wife(his sister), is starting to waver, she doesn't want to get into a fight with her brother, and everyone will take his side(again charming sociopath). I go back to the fact that they were 5 year olds that could barely function as 2-3 year olds, they were frightened wrecks, living in a hotel room, one step away from destitute. They have come so far, yet in the end you've got a 50/50 shot in court. And for the most part the court sides in reunification with the biological parents.

It's frightening. In the end, he will probably win, and there's not much I can do. And they will disappear never to be around us again. I know I should probably be satisfied with knowing that they are better because of the year with us. But if they go back, and it's horrible, and he's abusive, and we let them go back there(even if they say they want to go there), and we end up back with them, haven't we fundamentally broken our trust to keep them safe. It took almost six months for one of them to respond to affection in anyway. We almost had one of them diagnosed as autistic, and now they can give and receive love and are very affectionate.

One of the twins is sensing the tension in the air, and is regressing. Showing anxiety and worry, bed wetting etc. And that hasn't happened in six months. We've noticed, the teachers at school have noticed and his therapist has noticed.

But I'm a realist, the system is what it is. Not just what we want it to be. And a charming addict can be very, very compelling. Frustrating all in all.

So the moral dilemma is, if he's really recovering, and he's achieving sobriety how much of his past bad characteristics can we attach to his alcoholism. If he could be better, if he was truly being a better man then how fair is it to deny him access to his own children. Or do I go off the amends letter, and recognize that this is truly who he is and fight? Even if it alienates us from her whole side of the family?

Not getting a ton of sleep over here.

LexieCat

This doesn't necessarily have to be a one-shot, forever-type, decision by anyone. The courts might very well start off with supervised visitation, see how that goes, with the kids gradually spending more time with him if he really IS well.

The kids were in bad shape when you got them, he has admitted how bad his drinking and behavior were, so I can't imagine that any court would simply take his word that he had recovered and could now be a fit parent. It could well be that if all goes well, and he really IS OK to parent them, that the kids will go with him, and you may be OK with that. If that happens, then you still will have helped them.

Hope7726

Have you consulted with an attorney yet? Or some type of social worker even? I can't imagine how this feels but you clearly love these kids and they thrive under your care. I say fight like hell for them.

MRomeo99

Well.... we talked to the attorneys, and it's not good. This is how the system works, and hopefully will help someone else out there.

Because we have had the children for a year now without children's services involved, they will not get involved because there is no imminent danger. Also because they are not in danger, there is no way to get our temporary custody changed to anything else. We'll lose getting his rights revoked. And we have no way of putting him on any kind of case plan. In fact, if he knew his rights he could take us to court and get the children right now, even with no real home, no way to take them to and from school, etc.

We really thought we were originally taking them for a few weeks maybe. That was all. So even in retrospect I probably wouldn't have called DCF on the parents. So it's a no win situation, and they'll go back to the dad as the mom isn't prepared or willing to take them on. We'll have to live with the idea that at least for that little period of time we helped them. They can now give and accept love, and aren't scared of everything. I know we made a positive impact. Doesn't stop the river of tears in this household. And how do I explain to their four sisters why their "brothers" are leaving and we'll likely never see them again?

On the one hand, I would recommend not doing things without getting the court system involved. On the other, I can't really recommend getting the system involved early either because you can't be sure of the consequences. So it's a no win situation. Thanks for the support all.

timeagain

If you have documentation is it considered abandonment? And if dad gets them, can you have it in writing in any relapse, hospilisations, dwi, etc the boys return to you? Get the meanest attorney you can. Fathers rights is a nasty place filled with sociopaths, I haven't met one yet who didn't hit the kids or spouse but claimed the kids are his...he can do what he wants. What about the therapist report for the children can she advocate removing would harm the children and their progress?

Katchie

Have you thought about getting a therapist involved, a child psychologist that you can share the letter with and the background history? Perhaps his mental evaluations of the children and assessing development stunted by what has happened to them would be valuable in the courtroom.

Florence

There's no reason you can't call CPS today. Tell them the situation and that the children's father is threatening you if you don't hand the children back to him, which he is. And that he was historically neglectful and abusive, which he was. Hell, call the police (non-emergency) and find out what they would do if the guy showed up at your door. Just so you know. Get a mean old lawyer who has extensive experience with children's welfare and family law. My lawyer was a jerk, I'd never sit next to him for lunch or otherwise talk to him, but he did a good job, was a straight talker, and didn't pull any punches. He wasn't quite a Saul Goodman -- not QUITE.

FYI, five months sober (if he is indeed sober) is NOTHING. Sobriety is a lifetime challenge. These kids are young and fragile.

Have you and your wife looked into Al-Anon at all?

What has the brother's interaction been with the kids over the last year? How long has he been out of rehab?

MRomeo99

The problem is legally speaking there's no way to move it from where it is- technically it's Temporary Custody of Minor Children By Extended Family. Legally speaking we control visitation rights, in fact we could say no to any visitation. He can petition the court to get the order removed. The requirements for that are WAY LESS than the normal court which is where Dependency cases are held. As simple as do you have a job, and not living in a car. They can sleep on air matresses or on couches, it's irrelevant. That court will not do case plans- i.e. you have a year to do x, y, z and then you get them back. They just say yes or no.

The next legal issue is how do we pursue a more permanent solution. The one option would be Termination of Parental Rights(of which the mother will willingly give us), but a judge and four attorneys have told us that there is basically no chance of that happening. We thought of trying to ask for permanent guardianship(which isn't truly permanent). But there is no way to transition our temporary custody to a permanent guardianship because you can't get their case transferred out of it's current court unless they are in imminent danger. We also can't get DCF involved right now because again they are not in imminent danger.

Yes, there is technically abandonment- he hasn't supported them in over a year, and has had no contact of any sort in six months. But here's the kicker, you have to prove not that he's a bad guy(he is), but that he's an unfit parent, which as you know is very difficult to do with our charming sociopaths. The therapist believes that them being under our permanent guardianship is the wisest choice. But again it's irrelevant because legally DCF is not involved, he's not on a case plan, and there's no way to transition him to said case plan. So basically if he comes **** faced to pick up his kids in a month or so, we have no recourse really. This comes from a $800 consultation with an attorney at $400/hr with 55 years of experience and knowing these judges.

So fundamentally we have a very weak claim to them that can be revoked easily. And there's no way to move that weak claim to stronger claim unless they get hurt. Yet he'll take them and move them away and no one will be there to protect them, and know that they are hurt or need help. As we are not the biological parents, we have no fundamental rights at all.

Katchie

Has the biological mother said she doesn't want the children with him?

I hate this for the kids.

MRomeo99

The problem is CPS won't get involved if they are not in IMMEDIATE danger. And it's the immediate part. He's "sober", he's not drinking, they are in our household and we control visitation. So ... sadly not in danger. They are safe right now.

We talked to 4 attorneys and my wife has a client who is actually the family law judge in a different county, and he is more than willing to help us and give us his professional opinion. Then we hired the best person we could find in town and paid quite a good bit for him to advise us($800). Essentially because we're a 3rd party and neither the father or mother it means we are very close to powerless.

To be clear, I have no belief that he is five months sober, he has been adamant that we will never know if or when he ever drinks again(the last time we found out- we denied his kids to him). All I know is he had progressed from Alcohol to crack and ended up in a detox facility. His mother was so angry she refused to take him back so he moved into a halfway house. Until he charmed a fellow addict to take him in so he could move out of the halfway house. It's not like he did real rehab, I don't consider 1 day of detox and 5 months in a halfway house rehab. I have no way of knowing whether he's sober or not today, nor anyway to find out. And even if I knew he was drinking daily there's very little *I* can do unless something bad happens to them in his care.

This is a third generational thing. Grandfather was an alcoholic on maternal side. Father is a homeless alcoholic in California or Texas we think, and now him. We were trying to stop the pattern.

I don't know if the wife or I would want to join Al-anon. We've talked about it a bit.

MRomeo99

My mother is the supervisor of all child therapists in the county. She's been a therapist for 30 years. My father is also the lead psychiatrist for the same agency- and has been doing that for 10 years. We've had great support from the system. They have been in therapy for six months, and the therapist is in awe of how changed they are. Her recommendation would be for us to get permanent guardianship. My parents who work with troubled kids are in awe of how changed they are, and would be willing to testify- but again too close to the situation to matter too much to a judge. But again, it's irrelevant as we have no legal path to do anything about it.

The mother is suffering from PTSD from her time with him, and really needs therapy badly. She literally started shaking and crying at just the thought of him being around them. But she's young(remember she was pregnant at 17). She has a horrible family(with abusers of course), no car, never finished high school, works for minimum wage, we've offered to help her pay for technical school, or college of some sort. We're talking to her about the possibility of taking them, but not sure she'd be able to pull it off. Hard to say. She wants them to be with us, as she thinks that's the best place for the twins.

Florence

Hmm. I have some extensive experience with the family courts, and based on your story, I have a couple of observations/thoughts.

Family courts typically care about all this stuff, all observations, by all people close to the family. Don't write off your credibility or "witness" credibility because of your closeness to the case. Giving the case context, such as third generation addiction, a family full of professional carers, contrasted with his erratic care of the children, as well as abusive history, means a lot in family court today.

Don't jump to decide "immediate" danger ahead of the authorities. The second this guy pops in and starts jerking everyone around, call the authorities, whoever is appropriate. Build your paper trail. Call them every time. Let go of any middle class yuckiness about calling police and CPS and involving them in your affairs, and just do it.

He's threatening to take the kids. How? My immediate thought based on most addict behavior (sociopaths and narcissists included) is that it's way more fun for the addict to blame and threaten others than to actually court additional responsibilities in their lives for the long term. That he is purportedly five months sober off of a crack and alcohol addiction and shows zero signs of humility or graciousness at everything you've done for his family, is pretty telling, IMO. I think this is a time game. Let him bark, do nothing, hedge your bets that given enough time he'll go away, lose interest, or relapse. The "property" comments are kind of alarming, however. That is true anti-social personality stuff. I have an ex with narcissistic personality disorder and this is something he often said about our son.

Start creating a detailed, dated timeline that documents his worst behavior, and specifically how it affects the kids. Go as far back as possible, using emails and whatnot, including documenting behavior now AFTER he is purportedly sober. Keep it updated. In court, he with the most paper wins.

If it actually ever sees court, request the use of a guardian ad litem immediately, right off the bat. A GAL is a lawyer for the children, and will help the courts suss out what the truth is, so it's not all he said-she said in the courtroom. They are usually veterans of family law courts and have seen it all and have no patience for losers and abusers. I've used a GAL twice, over ten years apart, with pretty positive results for me.

Last question, and it's weird. How old is the dad?

hopeful4

Mom must have went through a bad time w/him to have PTSD. Get her to submit a statement to the court in your support.