Ultimatum versus boundary
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Ultimatum versus boundary
I know we've done this to death...but I'm obvioulsy not getting it....
All is going well (considering), our MC is going well, RAH has been sober for 3 months now and is working his recovery HARD. I'm doing my stuff too.
Right at the end of our MC session yesrertday - actually way past the end of our session, I said something along the lines of "I will not live with an active alcoholic ever again. If he relapses then we are done".
The psych (20+years specialising in addiction) says to me "that sounds like an ultimatum", and then turns to RAH and says "does that feel like an ultimatum"?
He says "if I relapse I know I am 'toast', so yes in a way it does feel like an ultimatum, but I think Jarp has the right to choose to live her life in whichever way she chooses".
Psych looked a bit...hmmm....negative? And said we should explore this further in our next session...talk about boundaries, rules and ultimatums.
To me, this is my boundary. I get its not supposed to be voiced out loud, but in the context of the conversation, it was a question put to me. I'm truly not saying it to get RAH to not relapse, because I know if he does there isnt anything I can say or do that will stop him. Loosing me wont be enough to stop himgoing down that path - because that path has nothing to do with me. It's just a fact. I wont go through it again and I wont put my kids through it.
So where did I go wrong?
All is going well (considering), our MC is going well, RAH has been sober for 3 months now and is working his recovery HARD. I'm doing my stuff too.
Right at the end of our MC session yesrertday - actually way past the end of our session, I said something along the lines of "I will not live with an active alcoholic ever again. If he relapses then we are done".
The psych (20+years specialising in addiction) says to me "that sounds like an ultimatum", and then turns to RAH and says "does that feel like an ultimatum"?
He says "if I relapse I know I am 'toast', so yes in a way it does feel like an ultimatum, but I think Jarp has the right to choose to live her life in whichever way she chooses".
Psych looked a bit...hmmm....negative? And said we should explore this further in our next session...talk about boundaries, rules and ultimatums.
To me, this is my boundary. I get its not supposed to be voiced out loud, but in the context of the conversation, it was a question put to me. I'm truly not saying it to get RAH to not relapse, because I know if he does there isnt anything I can say or do that will stop him. Loosing me wont be enough to stop himgoing down that path - because that path has nothing to do with me. It's just a fact. I wont go through it again and I wont put my kids through it.
So where did I go wrong?
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I don't think you went wrong at all. This sounds like a boundary to me. You stated your boundary of not living with an active alcoholic. That does not require him to do anything other than what he chooses to do. You both have choices.
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Originally Posted by suki44883 
I don't think you went wrong at all. This sounds like a boundary to me. You stated your boundary of not living with an active alcoholic. That does not require him to do anything other than what he chooses to do. You both have choices.
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http://www.charlieglickman.com/2010/...vs-ultimatums/
I just found an article that seems good for the subject matter. I've wondered about this very same thing, so thanks!
For me, I've stated that "I will not participate in a relationship where my wife is not accepted." Several FOO members are quite upset for me because of this (which caused an estrangement when the name-calling and disrespect just kept happening).
The key in the article is to avoid the use of anger in setting the boundary (risks becoming an ultimatum). That its purpose is not to control. That it is more about the choice that you will make based on their behavior and not a "you do this or else".
Your RAH has every right to continue drinking and to not work on a recovery program. You're simply saying that you do not feel comfortable participating in a relationship with him while he's drinking.
I suppose that tone and attitude are relevant as well.
I wasn't there, so I can't tell for sure. But, I agree with the other replies - seems more boundary-like to me.
I was told I was using "emotional blackmail" with my brother when I said that I would no longer be in contact with him while he refused to talk to me about his issues with my wife (to work on resolution).
On the counselor thing. I've found a particular counselor that works for me. I've had a few that just didn't work at all (one actually stated, "so you think he has no friends" in a suggestive way after one of my sibs said that I didn't understand body language or something - it was like the counselor was feeding my sibling ideas for abusive things to say). Sometimes the counselor doesn't fit - it may not be them and it may not be you. Just no fit (like shoes).
I just found an article that seems good for the subject matter. I've wondered about this very same thing, so thanks!
For me, I've stated that "I will not participate in a relationship where my wife is not accepted." Several FOO members are quite upset for me because of this (which caused an estrangement when the name-calling and disrespect just kept happening).
The key in the article is to avoid the use of anger in setting the boundary (risks becoming an ultimatum). That its purpose is not to control. That it is more about the choice that you will make based on their behavior and not a "you do this or else".
Your RAH has every right to continue drinking and to not work on a recovery program. You're simply saying that you do not feel comfortable participating in a relationship with him while he's drinking.
I suppose that tone and attitude are relevant as well.
I wasn't there, so I can't tell for sure. But, I agree with the other replies - seems more boundary-like to me.
I was told I was using "emotional blackmail" with my brother when I said that I would no longer be in contact with him while he refused to talk to me about his issues with my wife (to work on resolution).
On the counselor thing. I've found a particular counselor that works for me. I've had a few that just didn't work at all (one actually stated, "so you think he has no friends" in a suggestive way after one of my sibs said that I didn't understand body language or something - it was like the counselor was feeding my sibling ideas for abusive things to say). Sometimes the counselor doesn't fit - it may not be them and it may not be you. Just no fit (like shoes).
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An ultimatum is a final offer, final demand, a "take it or leave it deal".
I don't see that in this situation there is no offer, or demand. You are simply stating what you will live with. Every relationship has boundaries. All people have things they will and won't live with. Its best to know what they are; its normal to know what they are.
I don't see that in this situation there is no offer, or demand. You are simply stating what you will live with. Every relationship has boundaries. All people have things they will and won't live with. Its best to know what they are; its normal to know what they are.
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I had recently given my husband an ultimatum when I told him that I could not be in a relationship with him if he is drinking.
A friend of mine told me to ask him instead what he will add to his nonexistant treatment plan if he does slip. For example, he would have to
go to AA, counseling, etc, if he slipped.
A friend of mine told me to ask him instead what he will add to his nonexistant treatment plan if he does slip. For example, he would have to
go to AA, counseling, etc, if he slipped.
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I look at ultimatums like rules or demands. "You cannot do xyz or I'm leaving". "You must choose between me and the booze". You are directing it AT THEM. With a boundary, you are simply drawing lines of acceptable behavior FOR YOURSELF. Saying "I cannot live with an active alcoholic" is stating what you will tolerate in your life from anyone. You're not looking at your RAH and saying, "You cannot drink or else". I think you did fine and your therapist needs a refresher on boundaries.
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Jarp.
Just sharing here from my own experience and based on what my therapist would have had me work with .. of course my approach/ my therapist may be along a different line than yours.. so please keep that in mind..
People who are working very hard at recovering can relapse because its a very complex process... physiological in nature, and also with underlying conditions taken into consideration..
My therapist would have asked about the part " if he relapses then we are done" this part comes across as an ultimatum more to me..
and also my therapist would ask me to think about relapse also.. would relapse in the future necessarily be the same as what you have experienced in the past with him because now he is learning new skills, new approaches but these do take time to firm up and solidify. a relapse does not really take a person back to ground 0, square 1... there is a lot of learning and progress being made... so my therapist would ask essentially if its fair to put out that expectation of what relapse now would look like, and would I really be intolerant of it? We did a lot of what ifs in our marriage counseling sessions...
also.. my therapist would urge me not to put that kind of pressure on my husband.. if you relapse we are done.. I agree with your husband, its your choice and you have a right to make that decision.. but therapeutically some doctors would question this .. just referencing my own therapist in this context.
Just sharing here from my own experience and based on what my therapist would have had me work with .. of course my approach/ my therapist may be along a different line than yours.. so please keep that in mind..
People who are working very hard at recovering can relapse because its a very complex process... physiological in nature, and also with underlying conditions taken into consideration..
My therapist would have asked about the part " if he relapses then we are done" this part comes across as an ultimatum more to me..
and also my therapist would ask me to think about relapse also.. would relapse in the future necessarily be the same as what you have experienced in the past with him because now he is learning new skills, new approaches but these do take time to firm up and solidify. a relapse does not really take a person back to ground 0, square 1... there is a lot of learning and progress being made... so my therapist would ask essentially if its fair to put out that expectation of what relapse now would look like, and would I really be intolerant of it? We did a lot of what ifs in our marriage counseling sessions...
also.. my therapist would urge me not to put that kind of pressure on my husband.. if you relapse we are done.. I agree with your husband, its your choice and you have a right to make that decision.. but therapeutically some doctors would question this .. just referencing my own therapist in this context.
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I too have this boundary. It is for me. I accepted a lot of unacceptable behavior and made excuses for my H over the course of our relationship. I did realize all my cajoling was doing nothing, I did detach pretty well and watched him go right back at it before I ever came to SR or Al Anon.
I cannot go backwards even if my H chooses to go another round with addiction. I told him this during the family period at his rehab. It was an ultimatum - for me. I told him if he relapsed, that it was what the real him would want - a good life without the addiction impacting me or DS any longer. I did my time upfront.
Now that I work at the steps at times I wonder if I could be lenient with this boundary, but I'm a sucker when it comes to my RAH. I feel safest with it in place. It is not something I have been able to let go. Being codependent, I've been too permeable and too lenient in relationships. If it takes an ultimatum in my marriage to keep me safe, then that's just how it is.
I cannot go backwards even if my H chooses to go another round with addiction. I told him this during the family period at his rehab. It was an ultimatum - for me. I told him if he relapsed, that it was what the real him would want - a good life without the addiction impacting me or DS any longer. I did my time upfront.
Now that I work at the steps at times I wonder if I could be lenient with this boundary, but I'm a sucker when it comes to my RAH. I feel safest with it in place. It is not something I have been able to let go. Being codependent, I've been too permeable and too lenient in relationships. If it takes an ultimatum in my marriage to keep me safe, then that's just how it is.
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Originally Posted by allforcnm
Jarp.
Just sharing here from my own experience and based on what my therapist would have had me work with .. of course my approach/ my therapist may be along a different line than yours.. so please keep that in mind..
People who are working very hard at recovering can relapse because its a very complex process... physiological in nature, and also with underlying conditions taken into consideration..
My therapist would have asked about the part " if he relapses then we are done" this part comes across as an ultimatum more to me..
and also my therapist would ask me to think about relapse also.. would relapse in the future necessarily be the same as what you have experienced in the past with him because now he is learning new skills, new approaches but these do take time to firm up and solidify. a relapse does not really take a person back to ground 0, square 1... there is a lot of learning and progress being made... so my therapist would ask essentially if its fair to put out that expectation of what relapse now would look like, and would I really be intolerant of it? We did a lot of what ifs in our marriage counseling sessions...
also.. my therapist would urge me not to put that kind of pressure on my husband.. if you relapse we are done.. I agree with your husband, its your choice and you have a right to make that decision.. but therapeutically some doctors would question this .. just referencing my own therapist in this context.
Just sharing here from my own experience and based on what my therapist would have had me work with .. of course my approach/ my therapist may be along a different line than yours.. so please keep that in mind..
People who are working very hard at recovering can relapse because its a very complex process... physiological in nature, and also with underlying conditions taken into consideration..
My therapist would have asked about the part " if he relapses then we are done" this part comes across as an ultimatum more to me..
and also my therapist would ask me to think about relapse also.. would relapse in the future necessarily be the same as what you have experienced in the past with him because now he is learning new skills, new approaches but these do take time to firm up and solidify. a relapse does not really take a person back to ground 0, square 1... there is a lot of learning and progress being made... so my therapist would ask essentially if its fair to put out that expectation of what relapse now would look like, and would I really be intolerant of it? We did a lot of what ifs in our marriage counseling sessions...
also.. my therapist would urge me not to put that kind of pressure on my husband.. if you relapse we are done.. I agree with your husband, its your choice and you have a right to make that decision.. but therapeutically some doctors would question this .. just referencing my own therapist in this context.
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Originally Posted by allforcnm
Jarp.
Just sharing here from my own experience and based on what my therapist would have had me work with .. of course my approach/ my therapist may be along a different line than yours.. so please keep that in mind..
People who are working very hard at recovering can relapse because its a very complex process... physiological in nature, and also with underlying conditions taken into consideration..
My therapist would have asked about the part " if he relapses then we are done" this part comes across as an ultimatum more to me..
and also my therapist would ask me to think about relapse also.. would relapse in the future necessarily be the same as what you have experienced in the past with him because now he is learning new skills, new approaches but these do take time to firm up and solidify. a relapse does not really take a person back to ground 0, square 1... there is a lot of learning and progress being made... so my therapist would ask essentially if its fair to put out that expectation of what relapse now would look like, and would I really be intolerant of it? We did a lot of what ifs in our marriage counseling sessions...
also.. my therapist would urge me not to put that kind of pressure on my husband.. if you relapse we are done.. I agree with your husband, its your choice and you have a right to make that decision.. but therapeutically some doctors would question this .. just referencing my own therapist in this context.
Just sharing here from my own experience and based on what my therapist would have had me work with .. of course my approach/ my therapist may be along a different line than yours.. so please keep that in mind..
People who are working very hard at recovering can relapse because its a very complex process... physiological in nature, and also with underlying conditions taken into consideration..
My therapist would have asked about the part " if he relapses then we are done" this part comes across as an ultimatum more to me..
and also my therapist would ask me to think about relapse also.. would relapse in the future necessarily be the same as what you have experienced in the past with him because now he is learning new skills, new approaches but these do take time to firm up and solidify. a relapse does not really take a person back to ground 0, square 1... there is a lot of learning and progress being made... so my therapist would ask essentially if its fair to put out that expectation of what relapse now would look like, and would I really be intolerant of it? We did a lot of what ifs in our marriage counseling sessions...
also.. my therapist would urge me not to put that kind of pressure on my husband.. if you relapse we are done.. I agree with your husband, its your choice and you have a right to make that decision.. but therapeutically some doctors would question this .. just referencing my own therapist in this context.
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I have told my husband the same and I don't feel bad like I put to much pressure on him, or that I gave him and ultimatum.
I think its really easy when you haven't walked in someone's shoes to point a finger and say "You should be more compassionate and empathetic". Um no. When my husband first moved in he told me I would have to get rid of my cats. I told him not happening. I fully understood if he couldn't live with it he would leave and that was his prerogative, but I couldn't live with giving up my animals, my prerogative . To me this a crossroads - the same for a relapse. I cannot go through another HELL NO NO WAY ENOUGH ALREADY.
IMO relapse happens long before they actually drink. Its not a spur of the moment decision. I suppose its possible that someone would just drink for a day but highly unlikely. When my husband relapsed he drove drunk, was very abusive one night, lied constantly, argumentative, and my home was a hell hole. So, I choose to never get on that merry go round ever again.
I think its really easy when you haven't walked in someone's shoes to point a finger and say "You should be more compassionate and empathetic". Um no. When my husband first moved in he told me I would have to get rid of my cats. I told him not happening. I fully understood if he couldn't live with it he would leave and that was his prerogative, but I couldn't live with giving up my animals, my prerogative . To me this a crossroads - the same for a relapse. I cannot go through another HELL NO NO WAY ENOUGH ALREADY.
IMO relapse happens long before they actually drink. Its not a spur of the moment decision. I suppose its possible that someone would just drink for a day but highly unlikely. When my husband relapsed he drove drunk, was very abusive one night, lied constantly, argumentative, and my home was a hell hole. So, I choose to never get on that merry go round ever again.
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RAW and I have seen a marriage counselor too- he's in AA so the boundary language is familiar to him- I wonder if the MC in question has much experience with recovery issues.
For my money Jarp's statement is a boundary- there was no ultimatum deadline- it was a simple condition; no active alcoholism or else we're done. An ultimatum to me would be something like stop drinking in 6 mos or I'm done. The dictionary definition suggests a "set of terms" does not indicate a deadline.. but is "no active alcoholism" a set of terms.. I guess it could be viewed that way.
I imposed a similar boundary w/ RAW, she and I have spoken about it to each other and to the shrink, and believe I am prepared to act if it happens. It definitely should not be a secret. I would not view a slip as active use- I really really don't want to be on a hair trigger since I've often indulged my codie voice with that kind of attitude in the past. For me, "active" would be a resumption of the old habits or some crisis event like a DUI/DWI.
For my money Jarp's statement is a boundary- there was no ultimatum deadline- it was a simple condition; no active alcoholism or else we're done. An ultimatum to me would be something like stop drinking in 6 mos or I'm done. The dictionary definition suggests a "set of terms" does not indicate a deadline.. but is "no active alcoholism" a set of terms.. I guess it could be viewed that way.
I imposed a similar boundary w/ RAW, she and I have spoken about it to each other and to the shrink, and believe I am prepared to act if it happens. It definitely should not be a secret. I would not view a slip as active use- I really really don't want to be on a hair trigger since I've often indulged my codie voice with that kind of attitude in the past. For me, "active" would be a resumption of the old habits or some crisis event like a DUI/DWI.
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Originally Posted by NWGRITS
I look at ultimatums like rules or demands. "You cannot do xyz or I'm leaving". "You must choose between me and the booze". You are directing it AT THEM. With a boundary, you are simply drawing lines of acceptable behavior FOR YOURSELF. Saying "I cannot live with an active alcoholic" is stating what you will tolerate in your life from anyone. You're not looking at your RAH and saying, "You cannot drink or else". I think you did fine and your therapist needs a refresher on boundaries.
Originally Posted by schnappi99
I would not view a slip as active use- I really really don't want to be on a hair trigger since I've often indulged my codie voice with that kind of attitude in the past. For me, "active" would be a resumption of the old habits
Is a one-night slip worth leaving the relationship? Is it as much or more about a relapse of behaviors regardless of actual drinking? I have the same boundary - no living with an ACTIVE alcoholic. To ME that means him actively drinking again period, abandoning his recovery, relapse of behaviors regardless of alcohol, a series of one-day-relapses that amount to more than just a singular event.
That's MY boundary - I don't have to sit around while he self-destructs if HE chooses to do so. He always has the right to his own decisions, but I don't have to accept offensive behavior/actions that I have no control over.
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Jarp, I think what the MC is not getting is that this is not HIS boundary, it's yours. You have made the choice (wisely) of what you will and will not live with again. Good for you. I remember when I made that choice in my mind. Difference was, I chose not to voice it any longer except to myself. That is when I knew I was really looking at actions.
It also sounds like Mr. Jarp has a good understanding of how you feel about it, that is good too.
I get what the MC is saying, in that giving ultimatiums in a marriage is not a healthy way to live. I am guessing MC has not lived what you have.
XXX
ps...I think you are doing great my friend!
It also sounds like Mr. Jarp has a good understanding of how you feel about it, that is good too.
I get what the MC is saying, in that giving ultimatiums in a marriage is not a healthy way to live. I am guessing MC has not lived what you have.
XXX
ps...I think you are doing great my friend!
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I just want to add a couple thoughts and observations to the discussion; not that I know the difference between boundaries and ultimatums.
One observation: your first statement sounded clearly about you: "I will not live with an active alcoholic ever again."
About the following statement, "If he relapses then we are done," I think a question might be, how is he likely to hear it? Many people hear such statements as challenges. A challenge is more likely to trigger their wounded self/child which reacts in rebellion.
Communication is so important. It's a two-way street. If our goal is to keep the road open and be heard, we want to communicate in a way that's most likely to be heard by the recipient. If the other feels understood, feels calm and not on the defense, he's more likely to hear the message and take it in, to respond in like manner, to stay in dialogue instead of opting out.
A HUGE part of communication is non-verbal, in the tone of voice and attitude of body. It's just as important, more so in some ways, as what is said.
Wouldn't it be interesting to get some of the wise icons together, Dalai Llama, Pema Chodron, Marshall Rosenberg, and other experts in communication strategies? I'd like to hear their conversation on this intriguing topic and specific situations. I really love reading right here on SR, too. I learn so much from you!
One observation: your first statement sounded clearly about you: "I will not live with an active alcoholic ever again."
About the following statement, "If he relapses then we are done," I think a question might be, how is he likely to hear it? Many people hear such statements as challenges. A challenge is more likely to trigger their wounded self/child which reacts in rebellion.
Communication is so important. It's a two-way street. If our goal is to keep the road open and be heard, we want to communicate in a way that's most likely to be heard by the recipient. If the other feels understood, feels calm and not on the defense, he's more likely to hear the message and take it in, to respond in like manner, to stay in dialogue instead of opting out.
A HUGE part of communication is non-verbal, in the tone of voice and attitude of body. It's just as important, more so in some ways, as what is said.
Wouldn't it be interesting to get some of the wise icons together, Dalai Llama, Pema Chodron, Marshall Rosenberg, and other experts in communication strategies? I'd like to hear their conversation on this intriguing topic and specific situations. I really love reading right here on SR, too. I learn so much from you!
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