schnappi99

The statement-as-challenge question is interesting to me. Speaking for my own part as a codie, I've certainly taken some of RAW's statements and actions that way. Some of them were clearly provocative on her part and some not- but the response is mine. When the codie is in charge then I indulge the anger/pity party reaction, lately the codie has not been as strong and its easier to let that stuff go by.

My codie reaction to the "if he relapses we're done" statement is "but look at all the unfair crap you did" and turn it into a fight. My non-codie response is to exercise acceptance and respect, I would not find the statement provocative in that state of mind- its not snarky or pushy- or my fav passive aggressive.

If the codie voice is in charge then anything but indulgence is probably going to trigger me more or less no matter what the word choices are- because I'm very much like the alcoholic wrt my obsession over gratifying my desires. I attended a 12-and-12 AA mtg last, we were reading & discussing step 7- there was my behavior & attitude laid out in black-and-white.

I'm not speaking for Mr Jarp of course but as stated his word choices seemed more about seeking his recovery than reacting from frustration & anger.

lillamy

That first statement is not an ultimatum -- it is you making clear what your boundaries are. Your friend is trying to make you create a "set of punishments" for your husband. That's not your job. Your job is YOU. I would spend my time thinking about what I would do when he starts drinking again rather than make up "rules" for him -- because those don't work.

SparkleKitty

Just my opinion, "I will not live with an active alcoholic" is a boundary, but "If he relapses, we are done," is an ultimatum.

Some small but important differences:

* Jarp not living with an active A is all about Jarp making choices based on current and potential future circumstances and while it includes her RAH in general, it does not specifically target his behavior and his behavior alone. Jarp doesn't want to live with ANY addict, no matter who they are. Good call, Jarp, me neither.

* Jarp dictating that if her RAH relapses she will unilaterally end the relationship is an ultimatum and NOT, in fact, a natural extension of her boundary. A relapse does not necessarily lead to Active Alcoholism and the joy that comes with living with it. It MIGHT, for sure, but it's not set in stone. A closer boundary to this ultimatum is "I will not live with someone who is addicted but not actively pursuing recovery."

But those are semantics, but the deeper you get into this stuff the more you can really get to the heart of what you want and what you're willing to put up with. I say to boo to the Marriage Counselor and his effort at guilt-tripping jarp in to retracting her statement instead of further exploring the nuances of that statement. But I also say kudos to Jarp's RAH for his thoughtful and not at all self-centered response to the MC.

jarp

Thanks....just to be clear the MC has 20 years specialising in addiction - she also works at the hospital where RAH was treated. It's a psych hospital that covers dual diagnosis.

thotful

Thanks for this topic.

I'm reading as much as I can, because I think I still have a lot to learn on setting boundaries. It was only 2 years ago when I FIRST heard of them (from counselor) and felt very anxious at the thought of them. Less so now. More growing and healing to look forward to.

hopeful4

Wow Jarp, I am surprised to hear that about the MC. Maybe she misunderstood, who knows.

Keep focusing on those "I" statements and you are good!

LittleBirds3

I totally agree with NWGRITS, I think an ultimatum is a limit on someone else's behavior, while a boundary is a limit on your personal behavior.

Ultimatum: You can not drink, or I will leave you. (You are prohibiting him from drinking.)
Boundary: If you drink, I will leave you. (You are not prohibiting him from drinking - the limit isn't on HIS behavior, it is on YOUR behavior - you will not live with someone who is drinking. If he chooses to drink, you will leave>)

SparkleKitty

I also think there is a lot to be said for intent. If the statement is made in an effort to manipulate or control another person, it's an ultimatum and good luck with all that. If it is made in an effort to empower yourself to protect yourself, then it's a boundary.

jarp

Thanks everyone.

To be fair to the therapist...she's extremely well qualified and experienced in addicitons.

This was at the VERY end of our session that had already run 30 mins over time, and so she did flag it as something to talk about next time.

I think some of you have hit the nail on the head...loi think my first statement was ok....and I think the second one was not....and that I need to rethink HOW I communicate...and this means words, tone, volume, fails expression...everything. I can see my first statement was a boundary that I 100% stand by...but the second did cross the line. My decision is MY decision and is independent of him...but I made my boundary about him and his behaviour and consequences for him and that's not ok. I also do still have anger over that terrible bender he went on and there's a fair chance I was pretty passive aggressive in my tone as well.

I also think through all of this that addiction and recovery is FAR more complex than I ever realised. As much as I'd like to think its about putting down the bottle, having some therapy and never having another drink...I now know that addiction just doesn't work like that. She did say wed go back over what relapse is, what lapse is etc as RAH defined all of these things in context of his own addiction and behaviours. RAH has asked if we can go through what he wrote down in regards to this and can we discuss at home and at MC.

I know many on this board are AA centric....it's not as big in Australia as in the US and the clinic RAH went to DOES offer AA, and does support it, but they do also believe that one size doesn't fit all...and they don't work with the total abstinence forever type statements...as they don't believe that works well for the psyche of SOME addicts. So I know they don't define a relapse as a 'single drink'. RAH believe psych wants to see where I sit with all of that as well.

hopeful4

Well, here is the catch with that. Once he has one drink, how likely do you think he would be to not go into full relapse? I know I tried the one or even a couple with my X. Ha....it did not take long at all.

I agree that AA is not the be all, end all. I think therapy is great, AA, CRAFT, lots of different things.

Ultimately only you can decide what you can live with and what you cannot, and that is a boundary for you to make.

schnappi99

Yeah... RAW and I have been to see quite a few shrinks due to other issues and found something like 80% of them to be poor to awful.. beyond bad match sort of thing- one of ours had an undisclosed conflict of interest that Mrs Schnap found out about through an unguarded comment of his, fundamental errors in cited facts in another (we looked up the stats she was quoting), doctrinaire approaches elsewere. OTOH the good ones can be excellent- we eventually found a superb one which whom we made more progress in a month than the more-or-less year of effort up to that point. Sadly she had retired by the time the alcohol showed up.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if your MC had 1 year of experience 20 times if you will... but it also wouldn't surprise me if she just got it wrong that time. Or something else in the middle...

jarp

I actually really like this shrink...she is incredibly empathic towards both if us and we both feel we've been making good progress with her. Her creds check out, and she's well known here (my workplace has used her for almost 10 years coincidentally for some high level staff with addiction or MH issues). I just say this because I want to really think about things before I dismiss anything I don't like as 'she's a crap shrink'!

NoelleR

"...I said something along the lines of 'I will not live with an active alcoholic ever again. If he relapses then we are done.'
The psych (20+years specializing in addiction) says to me "that sounds like an ultimatum"..."

She may need a refresher course in the difference between ultimatums and boundaries. The simplistic answer is ultimatums try to control others actions (a no-no), while boundaries state what is acceptable and what one's actions will be if actions are unacceptable.

A boundary is simply this: A request, accompanied by a consequence.
Example: Please don’t raise your voice and call me names. If you do, I will leave the room.
There's no attempt at control. We don't set boundaries to change someone else's behavior. We set them to take care of ourselves around behavior that affects us negatively.
What a boundary isn't: A boundary is not a threat. It’s also not an ultimatum.

An ultimatum often looks similar to a boundary: demand + consequence. But there are big differences: Ultimatums often occur in a situation where no boundary has yet been set. You find yourself unhappy with how you are being treated and you are focusing on changing the other person’s behavior. Ultimatums come from a desire for control and force. Boundaries come from a place of power and strength. A good boundary is the result of knowing yourself and having standards for how you want to be treated in an interaction or relationship.

The crucial difference is that boundaries come from a solid place inside of you, whereas an ultimatum comes from a wish about how things could be. It takes self-esteem to set a boundary, whereas most ultimatums come from a sense of desperation. Setting a boundary is only half the battle. You must also be willing to follow through when someone violates your boundary.

(o:
NoelleR

allforcnm

Your welcome Jarp. When I read your initial post I thought your therapist sounded good; but now that I have read more on this thread today.. Im certain of it. She sounds a lot like mine... My husband went to a Non 12-step Rehab that focused on Evidence Based Approaches, Science of Addiction, Addiction as a medical problem... etc... It was heavy on private therapy, CBT and other similar therapies, put a lot of emphasis on the family, family involvement.. and this is why they worked so much with me, and had us involved in marriage counseling. (Most scientific studies show that family involvement has a positive impact on recovery).

I credit the rehab, the work we did in therapy for putting us on the path we needed to be on in order to truly recover... we had an affair to deal with also.. My therapist suggested I learn the CRAFT - community reinforcement and family training method.. also used by Smart Recovery... because it has focus on my own self care, but also great emphasis on healthy ways to support, positive communication, reflective listening, motivational reinforcements, etc. that ultimately help support marriage. Im not sure if your familiar with it, but there are some good books available.. and we have just started to review one here:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-families.html


i.e. When you set a boundary for a husband saying if you relapse.. first there is to be determined what this means.. but lets say it means one drink, or one drunken episode... now go back in time.. in most cases, the urge to drink starts as at unconscious level, changes start happening in the brain, and then all the sudden a person feels this coming on.. or maybe there is a stressful episode at work and he is feeling precursors that would have normally led to drinking.. But he knows if he tells this to a wife who has set a boundary of one drunk and Im gone.. its really going to shut down communication between the two people...he cant trust you with his feelings because it doesn't feel safe. my feeling is a husband should be able to share these feelings with a wife, and the wife should be able to fall back on skills to cope, and to actually help support and encourage positive ways / alternative ways for him to respond to these feelings.. not that we are supposed to be his solution by any means; hopefully he has CBT tools, a therapist to call, or other support... but family can be part of the overall solution.

With my husband, he came home right after rehab; our son was only about 5 months old.. now hes 3.. I never had a boundary of relapse and your gone.. but we did have relapse prevention plans, and what to do in case of a relapse plans... he knew I had boundaries to protect our son... my husband fortunately has not relapsed so I never had to use these..

But Im digressing a little... I think your therapist is trying to help educate you on addiction, and the complexities of recovery especially unique to your husbands situation.. you really need this in order to make educated decisions for your future... setting of boundaries, setting expectations, etc. I think this is why she want to get into these topics.. our therapist had us walk through what if scenario's, create plans in case of relapse, etc.

If you like this therapist, stick with her, and let her guide you through this.
My "therapist" was actually a M.D. Psychiatrist, and a licensed psychologist who worked with patients at the rehab, but had a special interest in working with family.. we were really blessed.

NYCDoglvr

You stated what you'll put up with and therefore it is a boundary. But be sure you mean what you say should he drink again (a very good possibility).

cookiesncream

I haven't been doing too much reading on this forum as of late but hubbie suggested I look at this post and wanted my thoughts from "the other side" and from one who was given the same choices. In a nutshell I think you did just fine and don't think you should be beating yourself up over this. Sometimes boundaries ARE ultimatums, not always but sometimes. The old adage IMHO applies here "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck."

He says "if I relapse I know I am 'toast', so yes in a way it does feel like an ultimatum, but I think Jarp has the right to choose to live her life in whichever way she chooses".

I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Jarp because that is EXACTLY how I felt given the same choice. I don't begrudge my better half but rather accept it. My ability to parent was seriously compromised by my drinking and I think as a result his ultimatum/boundaries were quite reasonable as are yours.

Not sure that I've added anything productive to this conversation but figured I'd chime in "from the other side" in a show of support to you.

NoelleR

"...Sometimes boundaries ARE ultimatums..."

I'm sorry, but I've got to take exception to this. Boundaries are NEVER ultimatums.

Ultimatums try to control others' behaviors (this does not work). Boundaries simply state what actions are unacceptable, and what your actions will be if they occur (these always work if you takes the action).

Ultimatum Example: "I will not live in a home with an active drinker/user, there you will not drink/use in our home."

Boundary Example: "I will not live in a home with an active drinker/user, therefore if you drink/use, I will leave."

Simple eh...? LOL Simple to write/say, but not so simple to do............

(o:
NoelleR

cookiesncream

Noelle I see your point and will consider it further. I may be bringing too much of my personal experience to have answered this one usefully.

Peace

FireSprite

Good points all around. I think boundaries can sometimes FEEL like ultimatums when a person is interpreting it only from their personal perspective.

I can say one thing & my RAH can hear another based solely on his interpretation of what I said. (One of his issues is interpreting instead of listening) There are times that he cannot understand my intent no matter how I explain it because he's filtering it through his lens only, taking it personally.

I can't make him understand it because I can't change his perspective to a broader view, that's up to him.

torquemax777

I thought ultimatums were what we are supposed to do when boundaries are no longer being respected? Kinda like "the last straw" or a way of saying, " this is your last chance. " I could be wrong, but it seems like I got some advice from you all in the past that gave me that idea??? Maybe I misunderstood???